My wife became unenthusiastic about going to the gym just last night, actually.

I don't take offense to the fact that she doesn't want to go with, though it would be nice for her to workout. That is something that would benefit both of us.

People who are passionately in love, do not make themselves so busy that they don't have time left for their partner.

On the other hand, people who are trying to deal with insecurities and somehow distance themselves enough from their partner so they can deal with hard feelings more easily may well do. I deliberately tried to busy myself when I was feeling insecure and unhappy and I deliberately tried to make myself less vulnerable to my partner so I could feel less hurt when he turned me down for sex yet again.

Actually, she has always been like this. The type of person who does not say no to people very often. If she has an open time slot she doesn't go looking to fill it, they usually come to her.

Ask for more time slots.

Tom:

I was asked to look at your stich. If you come back, I will spend more time.

I wanted to start with the above quote.

If its "CHECKMATE" then the game is over.

So start a NEW GAME.

The moves you have been making are not working.

You say your wife is involved in "important things" after work.

So, she can't be involved with some of them any more.

I was involved in all sorts of "important activities after work" Because I didn't WANT to be home. It was more fun being out.

But I stopped doing these "important things" I gave up the non-profit board of directors slots, the assistant coaching, the other "important things". I changed my lifestype to be more pleasing to my W.

The terms run out, and I quit. There is a way to disengage.

I like my homelife NOW. It is an inviting place. It didn't used to be. So, I found interests elsewhere....

And my W participates in the things that WE do now. I did not give up everything. I am down to ONE thing now. Its important to me, and W respects that. But the time committments are known, and I am in discussion with HER all the time about what is coming up, when, what it requires of me, her, even our son...

When I was doing 5-6 things, I just SHUT her out. Just like your W is doing now.

Change the game.

LG

Obviously important enough that they are prioritized higher than time with you, Tom.

You say she does them more than you would like - which indicates you realize you are a lower priority on her list than you'd like.

Sorry, that is not the behavior of a woman head over heels in love.

When DH is home I reschedule anything I got so I can spend time with him. I don't go to book club, I put off work until he's asleep, if we can't do chores together I save them for when he's away. All these are important things. All these are put on hold when the opportunity to spend time with DH presents itself.

Your wife may love you, but I SERIOUSLY doubt she's 'in love' with you, and if you were honest with yourself I think you'd admit that, your description of her ACTIONS tell the story, not your interpretation and what you THINK.

Oh, and hi - interesting to see you back with so little changed.

waving to Vibrissa!!

Hi Vibrissa! We missed you!

I still believe that she is in love with me. I know that I said she does spend more time doing other things than I would like, but have I told her that? No. I just try and support her. There have been some things I have gotten her to say no to, but for the most part I just try and be positive and support what she does.
I will say that some of her time spent outside of regular work hours are spent working. We do not work identical hours, so some of the time commitments are not a choice.

And Hello LG and Vib.

And some things have changed for the better, while other things have not changed. I'm on vacation now, so there should be more time to spend together, even though she is out of town right now.

Yeah, my hubby would have said I was in love with him too.

It was sort of true, I loved him and wasn't thinking of leaving or anything, but I didn't adore him, respect and admire him and go all melty inside whenever he touched me or even made eye contact across a room with me like I do now. And I would have fallen out of love with him eventually had we continued as we were. I suspect back then he would have thought he wouldn't care very much though either.

Tom can you answer a few basic questions for me?

No caveats or explanations needed, just a straight forward yes or no, if you please.

Do you believe that Romantic Love is possible to sustain throughout a lifetime?
Do you believe that it is possible for YOU to have a relationship in which Romantic Love lasts a lifetime? (Not necessarily the relationship you have with your wife)
Do you believe the Harley premise that he can take ANY couple and teach them to build and maintain Romantic Love?


Really it is that simple. It seems that you have two problems: a lack of faith and a lack of humility.

Let me explain that.

When I talk about faith I'm not talking about religious faith. I'm talking about general, every day faith. Every action we do is based on faith. We get up in the morning on the faith that the sun will come up. We don't KNOW it will come up today, but we do know it has come up every other day, thus it is easy to have faith in that. However, unless we're like my brother and sleep in until the afternoon, when we wake up the sun hasn't come up YET. There is no guarantee but past experience that the sun will actually come up today. We could know about Astronomy and the Solar System, but none the less, we are acting on faith in what scientists have taught us and our past experience, not actual knowledge, because the sun HASN'T come up yet.

I went to college with the faith that I could succeed there. I got married on the faith that we could have a good marriage. I had DD on the faith that I could be a good mother.

I think you lack the faith that the Harley program can do all it promises to. You keep circling here, arguing, debating, reasoning. Maybe someday someone will say the magic words that provide enough 'proof' for you to have the faith to take the plunge and implement the program in full. But I don't think it is on us to convince you. It is on you to develop that faith, and then act on it. It is on you to take a leap into the dark. We never know completely what the road is ahead of us. You want something sure-fire, something guaranteed. You don't want to rock the boat because you want to see what is out there in the darkness.

The sun, that's an easy thing to have faith in. But your heart, your marriage, that is much more difficult. You need the experience to feel confident charging off into the dark.

So you find yourself here. And that brings me to humility.

In order to gain experience and understanding we have to be taught. The FIRST thing we need when being taught is humility. You're a teacher, you probably understand this very well. You can't teach someone who is already convinced he has the answers. You may say you are open to learning, but you have a wealth of presuppositions, biases and beliefs, most of which run contrary to the basic premises of the Marriage Builder's system.

You, in your heart, already believe you know the answer.

And so you argue and debate and rationalize with those trying to teach you.

But you already know the answer.

So you aren't learning.

I'm sure you know what Confirmation Bias is. You have a set of beliefs, and no matter how reasonable you think you are, you only believe the 'truth's' that conform to that belief.

If you want to have the faith required to take that step into the darkness and get the big payout you hope is out there - you have to learn enough to get the courage to take that step. You have to feel in your heart that the path will reward you with what you desire.

Right now it isn't worth it - you're doing good enough drifting in still water. That is why no one here has found the magic words to propel you forward into what you are too afraid to gain.

Humility and teach-ability come in two ways. Either we humble ourselves to learn life's lessons, or life beats us down and forces them upon us. Doing it ourselves is much easier, and prevents a lot of collateral damage.

That's what the good people here are trying to tell you - they're trying to teach you so you take that step now, while things are good, instead of before you hit bottom.

The life you've built is one of cards. One day it WILL come crashing down. You can't see it, sitting in your little boat on still water, but there are sharks circling. We see them, and are trying to warn you.

It is up to you to be teachable, it is up to you to have the courage to take what it is you want.

I really don't think I have any help to give you, because the journey is yours to take and until you are willing to REALLY learn (not give lips service to it, but REALLY learn) you aren't going to get anywhere and I can't waste time racking my brain for the right words to get through to you.

I hope you find what you're looking for, Tom. I really do. You and your wife BOTH deserve love.

Hiya y'all! Good to be back.

TO:

^^^^^^^^^^^
What she said...

You can have this.

Do a schedule. What happens every week. Where you are and what you are doing, and then do one for her.

Why are you on vacation this week, and she is away? That is poor planning, isn't it?

With the schedule, you will clearly see when TIME away from home is selected over TIME TOGETHER.

And where some potential cutbacks can occur.

You do NOT have to beat her with your "PROOF" from the schedule. It just gives you a point to start the discussion with.

"Mrs TO, I did these schedules over the past three weeks, to show how out of control are lives are, and how it helps keep us apart. What can we work to get more time together?"

LG

Vib,
To answer your 3 questions
1. Yes
2. Yes
3. iffy (might be possible, but I don't know that I think that is right) Just because something can be done, doesn't mean that it should be.

LG,

"Why are you on vacation this week, and she is away? That is poor planning, isn't it?"

Well, as a teacher I am now on a two week Christmas Vacation. She also has a partial vacation (working part time over the holiday), but she had some extra time to go do something out of town. It was not something I needed to go do, I had things at home I needed to get done as well. She goes out of town for various reasons on occasion, sometimes to visit a friend, sometimes another reason. I don't go with on those, and no desire to.

Yes or no, Tom. Yes or no.

Why shouldn't it be done?
and - specific to you -
Do you want a romantic marriage with your wife?

Like I said, just because you can take any two people and "make" them be into romantic love, doesn't mean that should be done. I believe in people who are meant to be together, not just making it work when you are together.

And do I want to be in romantic marriage with my wife, again, I don't know. I want the marriage to be happier, easier, but the romantic love, I don't know.

He isn't Making them - I didn't say he MADE them do anything. One person cannot MAKE another do anything. I said he TEACHES them to love, to treat each other with respect and care - the Romantic Love is a natural by product of that. Interesting that you interpreted my words as MAKE.

These aren't people that are 'just making it work'. These are people who had little to no feeling for each other - and never had, who learned how to love one another, deeply, romantically, passionately.

Make involves a removal of will - that's not what is happening.

'Meant to be' is a crock - a childish fantasy. It is a preconceived bias that you are holding to for dear life. It is what is keeping you from making ANY sort of REAL progress. Perhaps you should consider the possibility that destiny and soulmates don't play into this as much as you think it does and our CHOICES and WILL play a much bigger role.



You want it to be good enough - and that is what it sounds like you have. It's ok now, yet you are left wanting more.

How sad for your wife to be deprived a true, deep love that she deserves.

I'm sorry Tom - I've got nothing else for you.

I can advise on how to use MB to have a romantic, passionate marriage because that is what I've done. I can't advise you on how to have a mediocre marriage. I don't know what 'happier, easier' looks like when you get there. And I don't think you really know either. Things can get happier, and easier - but I think you'll still be left wanting more.

Good luck to you both

When I commented on "make" I wasn't reffering to taking away peoples will. I meant by taking any two people and teaching those two people how to be romantically in love. If those two people did not have any desire or urge to be in love with that person before, then it isn't right to "teach" them to do so. If that were the case, then why don't we just go back to arranged marriages and then just teach everyone within those marriages how to be in love with one another. That way, everyone will have someone to love and love them back, and they will be taught the way to do it properly.

I just don't think that is right. I intentionally did not use the word soulmates before, but meant to be I think is something different. To me, you should be able to feel something for someone, before ever being in love with them. That special feeling that you don't know what it is. It is more than a physical attraction, more than lust, it is just an urge that you have a connection with someone, a connection that you feel the need to explore further and see where it leads you. It doesn't mean that it will lead to the greatest love ever, we know that not all relationships do. Some relationships are meant to last and some are not.

I have a friend who did not date through college, had some friends who were girls. When he finally started dating and moved in with his first girlfriend, I was happy for him. But it is not one that I expected or thought should last. He needed to learn from the experience, enjoy it while it lasted and then move on. Your first relationship shouldn't be your last. Even if you can be taught how to do it right. What is wrong with learning from mistakes, that is how we learn so many other things in life. I want him to be happy, but at the same time, he needs to try some of the buffet before he settles down with one main course (just the analogy that came to my head).

So you took out the how sad for me part. Gee, thanks. I do believe it is sad for me. Because ultimately I do want romantic love. I just don't know that I want it in this relationship. In this relationship I just want things to be easy and happy. I also do want my wife to be happy. I want her to have that romantic feeling, and I believe she does most of the time. I try and make sure she does not feel deprived in the marriage (though there are certain things where she does go without at times, I said I try).

Based on your last post- if you had any decency you end this marriage now. I'm sorry Tom, I can't post to you any more. Doing so fills me with anger and revulsion and pity for your poor wife. I cannot in good conscience help you bamboozle your poor wife.