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Originally Posted By: inrecoverynow
Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed
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This is interesting to me, my spouse is recently on this "quest", too.
I am confused by how do you define this "manliness" and what yall are looking for.


Let's start with this - We're looking for popular culture and society (let's face it, the real education system here) to stop demeaning the contributions and existence of the male gender.


See, now, this is what I don't get. Why does everyone assume that pop culture and society are THE only education system here?

What happened to parenting as an education system? And, why are we discounting that parents make a difference? Why are we raising children to believe that pop culture is the end all and the be all of everything? Why are kids being raised so that the predominant form of entertainment needs batteries or electricity?

Granted, this is an off topic example, but kids are impressionable and DO learn from their family.

My 6 YO boy looked at me and said "Momma, I don't want to get my sister (whose 3) a bratz doll for Christmas. It's not appropriate for her." He wasn't referring to the small parts, either. He was referring to the fact that we like our children to be appropriately clothed, and he understands that value, at age 6.

Trust me, my child is not some uber-smart kid. He's not a genius. But, he does get things, actually, more than I'd think.

I just don't think that parents should be taken off the hook, so to speak, with responsibilities for teaching kids about gender stereotypes.



No, parents shouldn't be let off the hook. Nor should society, nor should GENETICS, or simple human behavior.

Bah! Genetics! What is this hornswaggle?

It's nature AND nurture that influence us - and sometimes we overindulge on the power of nurture. Remember, even with a good family example, the child can choose to ACCEPT or REJECT that lesson. No amount of tongue lashings, time outs, or spankings is going to truly influence if that child ultimately accepts or rejects those lessons.

Some children who were abused as children will be abusers; they will ACCEPT that example. Some will refuse to be abusers; they will REJECT that example.

I was raised both by a nurture parent and a nature parent.

My father was pure nurture; he got up in arms about MTV and rap music, stomped and raved, and moaned.

My mother was pure nature; there was a case where they blamed Beavis and [censored] for the behavior of some adolescents on the news, her reply was "Please, your older brother mooned the neighbors out the front picture window, and he never had Beavis and [censored] to show him how..."


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed

IRN - If you don't think that popular culture is the primary (not only) set of guidelines that CHILDREN AS A GROUP in this country are exposed to, you are living in a cave somewhere.



It is my observation that about 70% of the population are not critical thinkers and are very enamored with popular culture and "trends." Alot of people watch those mind numbing, shallow, inane sitcoms [or Oprah] and take their life lessons from that. They stand for nothing and fall for everything. Most people are very susceptible to propoganda.

That is why the teachings of popular culture have such an impact on our children. Most parents don't teach their kids to question EVERYTHING they are taught in schools, etc. When my son came home in 8th grade and told me they were putting Harry S Truman on "trial" for murder for dropping the A-Bomb, I was so alarmed that I took over from there. I taught him how to research and find the truth himself. If a parent does not take over the training of their children, the child will be indoctrinated with the idiocy propogated by popular culture.



To quote my inner conservative: "What ever happened to personal responsibility?"

Why don't we teach it to our children?


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Originally Posted By: writer1

Having worked in a school for 7 years, I must say that the things being propagated in our educational system can be much scarier than anything you'd ever find on TV.


I agree!! And it is much more dangerous because kids accept everything their teacher says at face value. I taught my son to BELIEVE NOTHING!! And he would come home and we would research it and then go back and debate the teacher. It was a GREAT experience in that he learned not to be a mindless sheeple who just accepts everything at face value.

The only class I ever yanked him from was something called "Humanities" which was a thinly veiled name for world communism. They were teaching communism as truth, not as it really is: a system of slavery. So, I used this experience to teach him all about communism!


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: writer1

Having worked in a school for 7 years, I must say that the things being propagated in our educational system can be much scarier than anything you'd ever find on TV.


I agree!! And it is much more dangerous because kids accept everything their teacher says at face value. I taught my son to BELIEVE NOTHING!! And he would come home and we would research it and then go back and debate the teacher. It was a GREAT experience in that he learned not to be a mindless sheeple who just accepts everything at face value.

The only class I ever yanked him from was something called "Humanities" which was a thinly veiled name for world communism. They were teaching communism as truth, not as it really is: a system of slavery. So, I used this experience to teach him all about communism!



But, but, but... it's beautiful on paper... much like radical feminism.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Originally Posted By: HeadHeldHigh


To quote my inner conservative: "What ever happened to personal responsibility?"

Why don't we teach it to our children?


I agree! As a parent the buck stops right here. If my son grows up an ignoramus, that falls on me. But most adults are intellectually lazy and just follow the trends. If they are sheeple/followers they can't very well LEAD their own child. And most don't.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted By: HeadHeldHigh
[
But, but, but... it's beautiful on paper... much like radical feminism.




radical feminism = some whiny chicks who can't cut it on their own who want Big Poppa daddy gubmint to take care of them... dramaqueen


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: HeadHeldHigh


To quote my inner conservative: "What ever happened to personal responsibility?"

Why don't we teach it to our children?


I agree! As a parent the buck stops right here. If my son grows up an ignoramus, that falls on me. But most adults are intellectually lazy and just follow the trends. If they are sheeple/followers they can't very well LEAD their own child. And most don't.



Here's how "personal responsibility" worked with my mother;

When he was 16, my older brother got picked up by the police at a local 7-11... drunk. They called her up and asked her to come pick him up. Her response?

"Nope. If he's a big enough boy to get drunk and wander the town, he's a big enough boy to spend a night in jail."

She also had enough sense to know when he was out drinking. Her favorite thing to do was wait until he was on the way home, and sit in the front room eating canned smoked oysters.

"Want some oysters, son?"

"Oh, God... mom... no *urp*"

The fact that my mother is an unrepentant adulteress who took us camping with her AP several times, and trashed my father to me is one thing, but she WAS and still is an AWESOME mother.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Originally Posted By: HeadHeldHigh
[
The fact that my mother is an unrepentant adulteress who took us camping with her AP several times, and trashed my father to me is one thing, but she WAS and still is an AWESOME mother.


You are kidding, right? What about her was awesome if she dragged you into her filthy affair and role modeled corruption? How is that teaching personal responsibility?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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I don't know, maybe men shouldn't be left to their own resources too much:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101229/ap_on_re_us/us_frogger_wreck

(And in case someone takes this offensively, this is meant as a joke).


Me: BS/FWW: 48
BS/WH: 50
DS: 30, 27, 25
DD: 28
OC: 10
BH and I are raising my OC together.
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Originally Posted By: writer1
I don't know, maybe men shouldn't be left to their own resources too much:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101229/ap_on_re_us/us_frogger_wreck

(And in case someone takes this offensively, this is meant as a joke).


hey, that boy is playing CHICKEN!! laugh


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: HeadHeldHigh
[
The fact that my mother is an unrepentant adulteress who took us camping with her AP several times, and trashed my father to me is one thing, but she WAS and still is an AWESOME mother.


You are kidding, right? What about her was awesome if she dragged you into her filthy affair and role modeled corruption? How is that teaching personal responsibility?


Oh, she failed at modeling marriage, or healthy relationships... kinda why I don't lean on her for my own M problems... she has no clue.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Originally Posted By: HeadHeldHigh

Oh, she failed at modeling marriage, or healthy relationships... kinda why I don't lean on her for my own M problems... she has no clue.



HHH, I was also raised by a corrupt parent [father], so I sympathize with you. frown He really hurt me and my brothers and sisters by teaching us that wrong is right. He wasnt just corrupt in his relationships but in all aspects of life.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed
[
You'll note that Dr. Harley felt no need to publish guidance on "Women - Don't Leave Your Homes!" Former boy-children, now grown,have it now ingrained in their psyche that IT'S THEIR FAULT! THAT'S the awful contributor to the manifestation on the SAA thread trend that led off this thread here. Instead of rightous anger, increasingly we see betrayed males somehow feeling compelled to apologize for their skank-wife's infidelity.


Now wait a minute, it was MELODYLANE who wrote "Men, don't leave your homes!" That is because when a woman says "get out!" he leaves! To my astonishment.

Quote:
To the barricades, my friends!


rotflmao


ok, men, you have to start taking some responsibility here for this sad state of affairs. If you didn't comply with tyrannical bullies, they wouldn't succeed. I can't count the times some poor chump has come on the forum who has completely surrendered his family and home to some OM. He moves out so the next loser can move in and then tells us "there is nothing I can do, the woman always wins in court!" OF COURSE THEY WILL WIN IF YOU DON'T FIGHT!! That is a self fulfilling prophecy.

If you allow yourself to be bullied, guess what?? You are going to be bullied!


I didn't leave my home, yet my unfaithful ex-wife is the primary custodian of my child.

I didn't beat either my wife or my children, yet my unfaithful ex-wife is the primary custodian of my child.

I'm not addicted to drugs, alcohol, video games, porn or anything else, yet my unfaithful ex-wife is the primary custodian of my child.

I was unemployed about 5 minutes of our 7 year marriage, she was a stay at home mom for about 5 of those 7 years, yet my unfaithful ex-wife is the primary custodian of my child.

So while there may be a minority of men who might match writer1's ex-husband, that's the MINORITY of fathers who are denied daily access to their child.

I'm all for actually proving that someone is a fit parent. But let's be clear, having an affair and remaining in that affair, choosing to divorce the father of your children because you are either "unhappy" or you are falling on the penis of another man is evidence that you are an unfit mother, period.

Yet that question is not even allowed in a courtroom when custody is up for grabs.

If you end no fault divorce, make adultery evidence of being an unfit parent, then I'll believe the system is fair. As long as someone can leave simply because she's not happy, or she's having an affair, and have access to any more than 0% of the marital assets and primary custody of any children of that marriage, the system is broken and you'll continue to have fathers who feel the system has discarded them, discounted their input and blames them for the result they had zero part in creating.

As long as unfaithful spouses are getting custody of children from betrayed, faithful non-abusive fathers, or at the very least, they are merely unhappy so they choose divorce (which I would call being unfaithful) then the system is broken, and the betrayed men are not to blame for the outcome.

As Dr H has said here, the minority of those who leave their spouses are leaving men who are guilty of marital misconduct. So while some can point to anecdotes that their husbands were not fit parents, there's like 10 to 20 fit parents who were divorced against their will and turned into visitors according to the courts for every one of those unfit fathers.

Fix that, and I'll bet things improve.

Stop giving mothers who can't honor their vows custody preference over betrayed fathers whose "crime" is being romantically challenged.

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Originally Posted By: HeadHeldHigh



To quote my inner conservative: "What ever happened to personal responsibility?"

Why don't we teach it to our children?


Because it's hard to buy someone's vote when you tell them you made the mess, so you clean it up.

So instead, they find a way to make it look like someone else is paying for everyone's mess. At a federal level, pare the government down to Defense, Foreign Policy, and the Federal Judiciary. Everything else, even Social Security should be dismantled or done at the state or local level if folks want it.

But that won't happen because everyone wants something from the government and they buy the lie that someone else is paying for it.

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EE, we have men on this forum who have full custody of their children and possession of their homes AND are getting child support from their wives. We coached them to file on grounds of adultery and to ask for the moon. And some of them got it!!

While that is not always possible, there are states where men have a huge advantage if they simply fight.

Have you read Dr Harley's book, Defending Traditional Marriage? He believes we should bring back civil and criminal penalties for adultery and has a whole chapter on this.

Additionally, he thinks that anyone who has an affair with the spouse of a deployed soldier should go to prison for 10 years.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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EE, I understand that some men who do fight end up empty handed, however, if no one ever fights they will always end up empty handed. Even in no fault states like Texas a person can gain a legal advantage by introducing the adultery.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
EE, we have men on this forum who have full custody of their children and possession of their homes AND are getting child support from their wives. We coached them to file on grounds of adultery and to ask for the moon. And some of them got it!!

While that is not always possible, there are states where men have a huge advantage if they simply fight.

Have you read Dr Harley's book, Defending Traditional Marriage? He believes we should bring back civil and criminal penalties for adultery and has a whole chapter on this.

Additionally, he thinks that anyone who has an affair with the spouse of a deployed soldier should go to prison for 10 years.


Yet those are an even more rare anecdote than the misbehaving husband.

Sure one can win, in what, 1 in 100 cases? Especially if what you and I and Dr H consider to be evidence of being unfit is not allowed in the courts, then what.

You have a fit father who was stable, works up against a stay at home mom who by all state standards is a fit parent. The fight is lost because the evidence of the mother's unfitness is not even allowed in the courts.

I've fought that fight. I kept the house. I see my daughter every Wednesday, every other weekend, two weeks in the Summer and 1/2 of her winter break and claim her every other year on my taxes.

That's actually considered a great deal where I live, but yet my daughter is primarily shaped and molded by an unfaithful ex-wife.

What message does that send when the courts award her mom primary custody? It says mom's behavior was OK, dad is suspect since he can only see her when the courts and mom deem OK.

If you want more folks to fight, make it a winnable fight.

I agree with Dr H, so what. It hasn't changed the laws here. It hasn't retroactively corrected all the situations similar to mine, nor will it. It might prevent such cases in the future, but I suspect that future correction is still a generation or two away.

My state representatives don't care about correcting this. They like the federal money they get for being able to garnish my wages. That's right, there is a federal program that pays states for every child support obliger they garnish from, so they garnish regardless of if the obliger is paying or not to get that federal cash.

So what's the incentive to correct the problem when someone sees money and power in the status quo?

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Our state supreme court ruled that sexual conduct cannot be used in a custody case unless it directly impacted the minor child. So in other words, unless the unfaithful mother is doing her affair partner on the dining room table with the child watching, it's not going to matter.

So the faithful father is on the same footing as the unfaithful mother. If she's a stay at home mom, there is no way dad is ever getting custody in my state as long as his only complaint is her affair.

The law here supports that outcome, and until you change the law, no fight will change the outcome.

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Stop giving mothers who can't honor their vows custody preference over betrayed fathers whose "crime" is being romantically challenged.


And why do you think the judges, lawyers, and law-makers jointly decided that "motherhood" - good, bad, or skank-provided - is automatically better than "fatherhood"? Because they've been brainwashed by the same crap that the whole society has.

As an aside, my (least) favorite news story in this regard was a case involving a child's death here in enlightened NY. "Mommy" was living with "D1ck" her boyfriend du-jour, when they, evidently jointly, saw to it that her 2-year-old starved to death.

So tell me, who was the greater criminal here? The brood-mare who watched her flesh and blood wither and die, or the boyfriend (not party to the child's conception) who joined her in that exercise?

Result? His sentence was 15 years. Hers? Seven to ten.

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Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Additionally, he thinks that anyone who has an affair with the spouse of a deployed soldier should go to prison for 10 years.


Wonderful! What punishment for the spouse who has the affair? It is convenient around here to paint OP's as predators - overlooking the fact that many waywards are willing prey, if not predators themselves.

Last edited by bitbucket; 12/29/10 03:15 PM.

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