@LRK -

Set your bar high.


I would suggest that you increase this to 20 weeks completion of anger counseling.

Ditto

is this something i should ask for tomorrow at the hearing, or as a stipulation of our recovery?

Recovery stipulation, but if it is proven in court that he has these tendencies, take atvantage of the opportunity to get him help of course.

But yes definatly a recovery stipulation

ok so trying to work this out, he is gung-ho for dr harley and MB. YEAH! but...he is still not released from the OP. In the meantime, i wanted to take kids to see grandma (my mom). she lives 3 hrs away in the mountains, we live in the desert. i told WH that i had wanted to do this and his response was "No, when you go up there you make bad decisions" and "You shouldn't talk or see them until we have fixed us." he says he understands that they are my family and i love them. but it is still an LB to me.

so that being said, how do we work through this and how do i approach him to tell him i feel like he is sentencing me to no contact with the only people in my life that care about me? i feel he is punishing me for my actions of leaving/kicking him out. any advice?

What happened to:
and:


That's because that's what he is doing.
Maybe check out the 3rd post in this thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2434898

Please do yourself a favor and do not drop the OP.

You will have an awful time trying to get another one in the future if and when you need it again.

thanks anoni_mouse (cute name) that read helped a lot.

The petition for dismissal is already filed, but the judge has the ability to not grant it if he feels the need. we are already violating the order by talking.

H aggreed that he was to stay at his friends for 2 more weeks before coming home. I had written down some guidelines for those 2 weeks and he had aggreed to them. Now he is saying he is coming home as soon as the order is released. How can i tell him he is not following the PJA the way it was meant to? even earlier today he asked me to give him a "handi" if i brought dinner (he has only a microwave where he has been staying). we got off the phone with me just laughing, to me it was the "yea right" laugh. but the next phone call he brought it up saying i agrreed to the handi when i didnt say "no" i tried to explain the PJA...apparently he hasnt gotten that far in the reading. it is frustating because he has always twsted things to go along with his pov. I am trying to be strong. why am i so easily manipulated? ill be seeing a personal counselor next week to help me deal with that. he believes he is seeing a counselor for marraige counseling because "he doesn't need help with anything else but our marriage" but i went ahead and let the counsling ofc know that he has anger issues and emotional abuse problems and that he said he doesnt needpersonal counsel.

Easily manipulated in general or easily manipulated by WH? I used to think I was loosing my mind. It took a while to realize that WH was manipulating and blame shifting. I would try to talk to him about what he was doing that upset me, the next thing I know we are talking about what I am doing and we never got back to my issues with his behavior. I realize now he has been doing it for so long I can't remember when it started.

I went to IC a few years ago and she thought I had my head on straight and I did, when I was talking to her. I did/do when dealing with everyone around me except for WH. WH and I were doing well for a while but slowly things went back to the way they were. A couple of months ago WH told me he was done. He tried (ummm yea...) and we just keep going in circles and don't get anywhere. It shouldn't be this hard. HUH? He has no clue how easy he had it. He has a sense of entitlement and I am to blame for some of that. I enabled him, I know that now. I was doing things to make things easier on him because I loved him. Now I see that instead of appreciating what I did he felt entitled and still complained about what I wasn't doing and what I was doing wrong.

Do you think your WH has self esteem issues that he over compensates for by being cocky? Does he hate to be wrong?

Making demands, questioning your decisions, putting you down?

He thinks (and you are letting him) he is still in control. HE has to prove himself to you. He is the one who had an A. He is trying to manipulate you away from your family. This is a big

YES! You hit the nail on the head. This is exactly what it is like in our relationship (and though i tend to be a little bit of a push-over because im kind-hearted, i am not manipulated by others outside our marriage, for whatever reason i was always able to see when i was being played by anyone else).

i do believe he has self-esteem issues, or some other issue with how he was raised that made him the way he is. his mom told me when he was a kid that he was especially tender-hearted...but what happened? puberty? his father left when he was 2 and his mom remarried some years later and they new guy wasnt a great father...i dont know. he has had counseling...court ordered, when he was a teen. but he thinks he is "smarter" than them. he shows signs of being a manic depressive, but has been in the depressive state for nearly 3 years now (since the time he started drinking again). this is just my opinion, but i didn't pull it out of my butt. tho i didnt get my degree, i was 3 classes shy of a BS in psych. and a minor in evo. bio. so im not dumb. just unable to help myself. but anyway. yes, he hates to be wrong. tho he admits he is if he is PROVEN wrong, but often it takes some pretty hard evidence.

where are you and WH at right now in your marriage?

You sound like me only I used to be a pushover. I am much older than you and over time I realized that is not a good thing.


Sounds familiar. Childhood issues that they never addressed. When my WH does get to a position where he either admits faults or is forced to he blames it on his mother and his childhood. I feel like screaming �You aren�t the only one who has issues from your childhood. You are an adult, you are responsible for your own actions!�
Lol on the �smarter than them� comment.

I had issues with my dad and (scary!) some of the traits my dad had my WH has. I understand my dad now and have made peace within myself. I know my dad doesn�t know how he effected me as a child. He had an AWEFUL childhood but he never left my mom or pulled � the crap my WH has pulled.


So he is drinking and depressed? This is a recipe for disaster. Is he an alcoholic?


Oh no! You were a psych major?

My husband also has to be PROVEN wrong too. It drives me nuts!
My husband has no problem pointing out when I am wrong and pointing out my faults. He points out the littlest things I do that are wrong or bother him. Does he think he doesn�t do things that annoy me? HELLO!
WH has made comments about how people think I am so perfect and they don't know me the way he does. I tell him I know I'm not perfect, I have talked to others about my short comings and I have no control over what people think. I think the real issue is WH thinks I am a better person than he is, that is why he puts me down. It makes him feel better about himself.

Here is one that will make you laugh. In our (for now) bathroom we have a package of flushable wipes. They are resealable (zip top) and sometimes I forget to zip them shut. He forgets too but I don�t make a big deal about it, I just close it. So one day I come into the bathroom and on the package he wrote. �Please zip closed after you use these.� I kid you not! Man, I wish I had saved that. I could have given it back to him when/if he leaves.


My stitch is I'm not sure what I want to do

up until a few hours ago i had really truly wanted to work this out, he let me belive he did too...but we have been texting and im losing hope and beginning to believe that the only left is to file D.

so im working on dinner because i had planned to bring him some pot roast tonight and my messages back to him were short because i was busy., he said he wanted to come home and i said i know you do. which he replied, wow sounds like you dont want me there (and the truth is that i want him to do what he said he was going to do and until then, i dont want him here) i told him to stick to the aggreement and i want him home. his reply was that there was never and agreement, only what i was saying he had to do this and that to lift the OP. he tells me he does not feel loved. he says i have crowded everything with so many unrealistic rules that it is borderline impossible. then he laid out my "rules" go to counsling, go to marriage counseling, do MB, not talk to OW, give me all his PW and "have no private thoughts or conversations". he then says "and if i refuse any of that then im not allowed home....and you changed the locks to the house, got a restraining order, leave me anytime you feel i may say something mean, publically embarrass me by telling the world im cheating on you...but im the one who has to make all the sacrifices."

ARGGGG!!!! He just doesnt get it!

he said it looks like a game to him. i have never been a game player in that sense. and i told him im not playing games. i am just not backing down and stepping aside like i have always done. i said "i am tired of being emotionally walked all over" and he asked how he was doing that. i know he cant see it, becuase he has yet to change so i spelled it out for him. but instead of apologizing or admitting he just continued to do exactly what i said he was doing that was negating my feelings and beliefs!

He's trying to manipulate you. I wouldn't allow him to draw you into a circular argument like this. You've already given him your requirements. He's needs to accept them in order to come home. Don't rehash things with him.

thanks bliss, i didnt back down on my requests and he finally let up, probably realizing he was doing more harm than good. but how do i not let him draw me into a circular argument? just ignore it? just say we arent going to discuss this anymore?

Sounds familiar, and comfortable, for him as he has a place to hide, and they are all,"Against him".

Very common and yet one of the hardest things for someone to do, is stop blaming others for thier problems and using them as an excuse. Kinda like.. "well you started it!,if you hadn't...". Its also agravating when people create drama because they are so used to living in it, and, feeling sorry for themselves while they, "suffer".

What you must do is refuse to buy into the crap. You don't play that..You stand alone and take your sweet time making decisions, and only decide when it makes sense, and brings peace to you.

He may have had it rough, but the pity party is deadly, and you are not gonna enable it because its bull. Your not having it in your life, and he can if he wants, but not with you.

He will have to respect it, because you demand it, then maybe he will get it, and appreciate the opportunity to change himself and his relationships, instead of trying to be smarter than everyone because in his head, he wants to get even.

Depression in sometimes described as anger turned inward. Look at this example. When a child doesn't get there way, they either get angry or pout. Anger can be good if expressed correctly, but talking about the problem with a responsible adult or authority figure that has earned trust and understanding is much better than harboring resentment that can turn into long term deppression.
Talking things out, seeing reason as the only alternantive, being able to know that even if they were done wrong, the perpetrators sunk to a level that going to ourselves would make things worse, and would still not give peace. "We would become what twisted us"


Then if we never get to the truth, and we blame ourselves for not getting our way, or if we were wronged not being able to protect ourselves,(esspecially as little children),or in any way we blame ourselves, we get angry at ourselves=depression. We need to get out of that depression, and it can be through violence against others, or self abuse, fantasy, or denial of some sort mixed in wherever.

It is obvious we are confused and need help, with us also working towards a plan to live better, if we realize we can.

There again is Plan B. When a WS is denied the enablement to act the way they want with the BS, it gives them hope. They don't realize it at first, if they ever do, but when they see they have made the mess, or at least realize they must do thier part to fix things for themselves, they have the hope of coming home to a new and better marriage. Those old games are gone, at least with the BS.

They will be alone yes in thier decision, but know freedom in that same clarity, and gain thier own strength that is thiers also. They will go though there own personal process alone, with support, and attack what is attacking them, once they realize its really themselves, and thier thoughts and misunderstandings. They will also see that it is fair that they do this and learn forgiveness not because they have the power of absolution for what has been done to them by others or themselves, but to get rid of the bitterness that is eating at thier heart and soul.

Its not all thier fault, but it might be thier responsibilty, to do what they can now that they find themselves here, and in this situation, whatever it may be.

I pray he finds some help, and is not afraid to look for it or fooled by fear and pride into denial. But thats his deal, all we can do is not be part of damaging behavior to ourselves, or others. It starts with us.

Something I was thinking about for a couple days. .. We all want to help others, but the best way for that is to take care of ourselves. Its a paradox isn't it? We want to be commpassionate and understanding and comforting, but many times court misery with the person we comfort.

Then when we just stand up for what is right and even are an example for those who are doing wrong, we don't feel connected. They go and find someone who will live in the misery with them, and we are alone it seems. Lonly at the top? Well maybe, but there are others for support, and we all need that. It depends on what you believe in and fight for and who are our allies with truth and reason.

Life is to short to waste one second hurting ourselves or others, or not realizing it is a gift.


Ok another long post. Hope it helps.

well, i think he is finally getting the hang of it. finally realized i wasnt going to be talking about anything he wanted to until he finished reading Dr Harleys concepts...and put them to use. so we spent some time together at his moms for new years and had a pleasant time with the kids. he will be coming home in the next week. i hope he continues to make progress for positive change. be cause im not sure i can handle too many slip-ups from him. should i even except one? what do you do when your S "performs" a LB? i have the urge to shout "LOVE BUSTER!" but i probably wouldnt get a very good reaction to it. what if i just realized that something he always does is a LB for me and i didnt put it on the questionairre? well i guess i can just write it down and when we discuss the EN and LB questionairre just add it in then. he bought a lotto ticket and said "if i win i be you wouldnt divorce me then". i just looked at him and said, "those jokes were never funny and they still arent so dont do it." amazingly, he said sorry! that is the first time he has ever apologized for something that HE did. shock and awe! and he is planning a weekend away w/o kids to las vegas for our anniverssary at the end of the month. we have never been on a vaca, anywhere, alone. and to finish it off, we will be ordering the online course for V-Day. our present to eachother. I think i see good things happening. i just hope they stick and he isnt playing me. hard to know, hard to believe. im not sure i will ever let my guard down again tho

For every step forward, we seem to take another back. H was involved in an EA. Told him my issues with his attention to the OW and got me nowhere. Ended up leaving and him promising to do whatever he can "within reason" for me to come home with the kids. I had 3 stipulations to come home. NC with OW. Counseling. And access to all his accts and electronic devices. He said he would, so I came home. a few days later I found that he still had contact with OW after he said he wouldn't, still hadn't giving me access and then told me he wasn't going to go to counseling because "they will says it's all my fault because i drink". not to mention he threatened me if i ever left with the kids again. SO, got a RO for the threat and entered into a type of Plan B. NOW he is willing to work on it. he says there is NC with OW. also says that if she waves he will wave back. i told him no can do and he said then i cant have contact with my "church people" because "they have done more wrong to me that OW has to you"

So now he wants to fix our marriage, but he feels that the only way to make me see is side is to make me feel like crap. i do "see" his side, but i also view his current issues, like having to sleep on his boss' couch, and now having a "violent record" so he can "never"get another job, or we can never rent a place (we own, but the OW lives across the street!), i view these things as consequences of his actions. but he views them as consequences of mine. Who is right here?

I've done my best to explain that we shouldnt have relationship discussions until he has finished reading Dr H concepts. he says i throw it in his face as if he isn't doing it. i know he is, and i honestly didnt mean to make him feel like i put him on a timeline, but whenver he brings up the fact that i won't allow him to speak anything negative, what am i supposed to say other than "you need to finish reading" so far he isn't capable of a discussion about the neg. aspects of our relationship without major LBs. and tonight was the first time since our serious marital ussues began that ive had an "angry outburst" oddly enough, on the LB questionairre, he made a comment that i SHOULD have angry outbursts once in a while "because then we would resolve things". so tonight i had an angry outburst and what happens?? he says "oh so you can get angry but i can't"...i feel like i just cant win. he follows it up with "i think this is going to end in Divorce" My reply, "Fine, if thats what you want" Whatelse am i supposed to say? i have sacrificed my sanity to keep this marriage afloat for the last 3 years or more, and i just cant take the constant manipulation. im just so frustrated, because 3 minutes later he is hugging me and saying he loves me, but right now we both just make eachother miserable.

last night i stopped over at OW house because the night H got arrested he gaver her his knife that he carries and i wanted to pick it up. she said shed have to find it and then asked for her house key (which id had for probably a year when i dog sat back when i thought we were 'friends'). anyway, the day i left i took her key and chucked it in a garbage can at a gas station in another town. i told her no i dont have your key. and she asked me if id change her locks! i laughed and said "no why would i do that? are yo going to hold the knife hostage?" and she said no she wouldnt do that and because she doesnt have another spare key. i told her to go make a copy of hers, id give her the 3 dollars! lol. and i turned to walk away. and she said y did u throw it away and i said i was mad and she said why and to that i was blown away because she very well knows y. her kids were standing behind her. i just said, i wont discuss anything with you, then left. had her kids not been there i probably would have yelled some explicatives at her, even though that is not the person i am, i was livid. how dare she pretend like nothing was wrong!

because of people like her and my H, i have sucked so far deep into myself i am clawing to get back out.

so how long into this "FR" do i let it go? if he is doing the things i have asked, how can i believe that he is not willing to try? he seems upset because i have set "unobtainable" ideals. but i try to explain that i have set high goals because M isnt something that "stops" because we have reached a point where we are both happy enough to continue on, that it is a life long process. he seemd ok with that response, but still feels i am trying to make "coming home" impossible for him. i wish he would get on here and share his side so someone can either point out he is an a$$ or show me where i am being unreasonable/insensitive

i swear he is a manic depressive or bipolar...there is something wrong with his brain chemistry somewhere. 1) how do i convince him to get this checked out 2) is it possible that there is a test he cant fool?


you guys, i hate to sound needy, but he has taken away every friend i have ever had. and my moms and sister who are my only friends left, they would rather i just divorce him. my sister has already told me she wasnt going to give me any more advice, because her advice was to leave him. my mom is currently unavail. so i am alone here. he even wants to leave our church because i sought counsel with the bishop. please help me