Hi Everyone,<P>I'd like to know your opinion about my counselor. She's confusing me. I feel comfortable with her but I think you know her beliefs on marriage aren't exactly "for better or worse". My happiness is her #1 concern.<P>I told her about my serious setback. She wasn't at all surprised, she actually said she expected it. She said a relationship like I had hardly ever just ends cold, there is usually alot of residual affects afterwards and did warn me that it could happen again, especially with me seeing him everyday. <P>I asked her "I'm looking for closure in my mind, I keep telling myself, it's over but I'm not sure what I'm searching for, what will make my mind stop asking questions, I know he told me it's over and he couldn't leave and wanted to try for his son but I guess because he's still telling me how unhappy is at home, still loves me and will love me forever, that he'll never get what he wants from his wife but will sacrafice all for his son but then says I know if things don't work out 5, 10, 15 years from now, we'll start off exactly where we left things, it's like a seed has been planted in my brain and I keep thinking well maybe if things don't work out." <P>I said "I get so angry at him because for two years I kept mentioning his son and how he should stay for him and I didn't want him to leave just for me I wanted him to leave because of the problems he had at home, and he kept assuring me that it was the case, that he was so miserable, his wife was the biggest ***** and he just couldn't stay married to her, wouldn't have anymore children with her and the fact that we found eachother was fate, it would make it easier to have eachother and that people spend their whole lives searching for a love like ours and never find it and we couldn't let it die and let it go and now after he brainwashed me, he saying the opposite".<P>I have two voicemails saved from him where he is very upset and sounds like he's crying saying how much he loved me but yes, I'm right about everything, he did say all those things but all he could say is that when he didn't realize how it would be until actually left his son and he has to try counseling for his son and if it doesn't work then he can tell his son he tried, even though he told me for two years that he's tried enough and he couldn't live with certain things that after realizing how it felt to leave his son that he has to give it this one last try and that most marriages are unhappy anyway and how sorry he was for hurting me and that life is not fair, he never should of had a child in his marriage but he did and now he has to pay. He said he still questions everything and he this might be the biggest mistake of his life and the miss for me is just as unbearable as it was for his child when he left but his child happiness comes first.<P>Well, I played these voicemails for my counselor so she could hear his voice and everything he said. <P>She said "you know he sounds very sincere, I really believe he did and does love you very much and meant everything is said to you, and some people stay married just for the children and he's probably honest that he didn't mean to mislead you but just didn't realize the reality of leaving until he left, also he sounds very guilty, he has alot of guilt in the voicemails, he stayed at his parent's house for that weekend, and his mother told him to try again for his son and the guilt just overwhelmed him. Would you consider just sitting back, giving him time to try and waiting for him? Maybe he'll come back to you?"<P>I said "No, I can't do that, what about my marriage, that's not fair to me". So she said "what if you try on your marriage and he trys on his and if things don't work on both ends, you'll be together, like what you said, if's it's meant to be then it'll happen."<P>I asked her how do I get him out of my head and she said to envision him closing the door on me, or walking away from me. This is easier said then done but I'll try.<P>Then she told me that I could be divorced in New Jersey in 60 days if I claimed mental cruetly and I could get on with my life. That I would find someone else. But she did say to not consider this until I'm over the OM and have a better grip on my marriage.<P>I know my thinking about my marriage is tainted. I wish the OM would do something to taint my image on him in my mind. Burst that beautiful bubble I have imprinted in my hard head.

Hi Hummingbird<BR>Your counsellor sounds very strange she actually gives you info on how/where to get a quick divorce, I don't know that you are seeing the right person, perhaps you should look into finding some one more pro saving the marriage? Just my opinion.<P>Jenny<P>------------------<BR>Where have all the cowboys gone ?<BR>Paula Cole<P><BR>

There are many counselors there who are pro-divorce, amazingly enough. Back when my H was depressed, I had one session with a friend's therapist. She was one of these angry feminist types who told me to leave him. Big freaking help. And for this I had to pay.<P>My current therapist is not a Harley devotee -- she knows nothing about the principles, and indeed, she feels that it's OK to have some secrets from your spouse...obviously not secrets that affect the marriage, but some "personal space."<P>I told her very early on that I was not interested in divorcing my H, that I was there to rebuild my self-esteem so that I could live with him and his insensitivity. She has respected that, even when I rail about him in my sessions. She says, "You know this about him, you know he doesn't have many inner resources for himself, let alone to share. You have to take care of Dazed."<P>And she's right.<P>What she's not right about is that if you have an affair, you should keep it a secret.<P>Perhaps your counselor thinks you're trying to build strength towards a divorce.<P>Therapists aren't gods. They're not even all-knowing. What they do is help you navigate a minefield, understand why you do what you do, change your behavior patterns and the way you think. A therapist should NOT tell you what to do.<P>Right now, your therapy is directly in conflict with the principles you're getting here. I think you're going to have to decide what methods you're going to buy into -- the "do whatever you have to in order to save your marriage" philosophy here, or what your therapist is doing.<P>Ultimately, it's your life and your decision.<P>I'm appalled that your therapist would try to keep that hope in your head that your OM will come back to you. Yet that's a hope you seem to want to keep. When people tell you here that he's being manipulative, that he's not being fair to you, that you have to stop contacting him, you don't want to hear it. Your therapist tells you yes, maybe this IS "true love" and that you should still hope. I happen to think she's being highly irresponsible. But all she knows is what you tell her. And if she thinks you're trying to build courage for a divorce, well, that's what she's going to help you to do.<P>Look, I am not a slavish adherent to the Harley methods either. Their stuff on "have plastic surgery if necessary if attractive spouse is high on your spouse's needs list" makes me ill, quite frankly. I've put all of my own needs on hold, perhaps forever, to do a better job on filling that black empty hole that is my spouse's needs.<P>I happen to believe that some people here have been in Plan A far too long, when it's clear the spouse isn't coming back. But that's just my opinion. I'm not living their lives, and we each have to do what feels right.<P>Hum, you have to decide what you want, and let your therapist know. If she tries to steer you in one direction or another, find another therapist. Her job is to help YOU make your OWN decisions.<P>If you want to go full-barrel into Harley stuff, then get on the phone and get a referral.

Hummingbird,<BR>You are hurt and confused and seeking professional help and you seem to be trying to guide your clueless counselor in the right direction. Talked about a mixed message of pure garbage.<P>What's up with her? Is she married? How many times? <P>And is your H supposed to go to her one day? If she has these attitudes I would say that would be mental cruelty to him. I mean if she clearly developed a bias toward you, knows the whole story and wasn't even pro marriage. Does this sound exactly fair to a man that obviously could benefit from some good counceling? <P>Hummingbird, the fact that you are here and that you are at home tells me that your values and beliefs, although violated, are calling to you get your life back on track. This councelor seems to have the belief system of there is no right and no wrong, there are no absolute truths, everything goes if it makes you "happy". Kind of like the end (happiness) justifies the means (ignoring your value system). Or that "the pursuit of happiness" is almost sacred and the attainment of that prize justifies whatever unhappiness or impact on the lives of others your attainment of happiness creates, because of course your individual path is more important that any previous choice or commitment.<P>Then, I'd love to hear her personal definition of happiness, because I don't believe you can attain lasting happiness or what I would call "inner peace" by living outside your value system. Of course she probibly doesn't share your value system.<P>Hummingbird, I know you are not necessarily committed to your marriage, but my personal opinion is that you need a councelor that at least more closely matches your personal value system.<P>And Hummingbird, with the amount of pain and confusion you are in, for you to even feel uncomfortable with what she says, instead of hanging on to it, says a lot about your true strength and convictions. You should be proud of yourself.<P>Hummingbird, still working on your list, just polishing.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

DUMP THE COUNSELOR NOW! Jeez, she is just keeping you waiting for the om! How in the world could you ever get over him with that kind of talk?<P>Get another counselor. Call around & talk to a few before you go in. Tell them you want to work on your marriage and that is what you want them to help you with.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A>

I too say get another counselor. I have never heard of such in my life!!

Thanks everyone.<P>I was really confused yesterday. It was like she was taking his side. It definitely did not make me feel better.<P>I've gone to 8 sessions with her already. And finding her was unbelievable, what I went through to even find someone who'd see me once a week, everyone else was case overloaded could only commit to once every 3 weeks and then couldn't guarantee it be consistent afterwards. With her I have a consistent time, every Tuesday and 7:00PM. <P>Oh, guys, I feel so exhausted, . I'm paying her $85 an hour and it's not even covered in my insurance plan. I should be paying you guys instead.<P>My happiness is her goal and I have told her I'm unsure what to do with my marriage. But she's not helping me or giving me guidance to stay married. It is like she'll say whatever I need to hear to justify my decision.<P>If I tell her that I want to get divorced she'll convince me it's the right thing, if I tell her I want to wait the rest of my life for the OM, she'll say OK.<P>I just assumed all counselors were highly educated and said the same things. I guess not. <P>

Hum, what bothers me about your counselor is that she doesn't seem to be wanting to investigating what's the right thing for you to do.<P>As I said before, if you want a therapist that's going to adhere to the Harley methods, then either do phone counseling with them here or get a referral.<P>Even my therapist has a "take care of Dazed" orientation. If I was in your shoes, would she do what yours is doing? Hard to say. But regardless of whether you or she feels committed to your marriage no matter what, I still think it's reprehensible to encourage a married patient who has expressed a desire to work on the marriage to have hope that the OM will "come around again." She also seems to veer back and forth.<P>You know, Hum, a good therapist isn't a cheerleader. In fact, sometimes a good therapist will infuriate you. I had one session where I had a tantrum and stomped out, I was so angry with her. But that's part of the deal.<P>I think you're having trouble sorting out all the messages -- the ones you get here, the ones you get from your therapist, the ones you get from your H, the ones you get from OM, and the ones you get from romance novels and movies.<P>I think you need to decide what you want to do -- and that's where FHL's talk about your value system is important. What ARE your values, anyway? It seems you'd prefer to make your marriage work, or you wouldn't be here. So work with that. And if your therapist won't help you with that, then get another one.

Hmmmmmmmm....why does she have all this time available compared to the other councelors? Hmmmmmmmm..............................!!!!!!

Good Point!!! <P>FHL, do you really think counseling can help me? I know I've heard there are alot of benefits but really I think I'm learning more hear and from the books I've picked up.<P>I'm just doubting the whole counseling thing, I'm thinking it's a really great way to take innocent people's money. <P>I know counselors aren't Gods, they can only do so much, maybe I'm expecting too much in a short period of time.<P>

No, I think your counselor is focusing too much on what you should DO, rather than how you THINK. <P>If you want someone to tell you what to do, then call Laura Schlessinger on the radio, listen to her berate you, then do what she says. And it's free.<P>A counselor should be a guide in a journey of self-discovery. Right now your problem is how you THINK, not what you should do. For your counselor to be talking about how you can get a divorce is not only absurd, but also unethical. My father had a therapist who helped him with all the logistics of leaving my mother.<P>What your counseling should be focusing on, IMHO, is a) Do you want to stay married; b) are you in a position now to make that decision; c) what in YOU made you so susceptible to the affair; d) what in you makes you unable to let go; e) how can you find the strength to make your own decisions, unfettered by OM, H, or romance novels.<P>Is there a possibility that your marriage was a mistake? Yes. Is it possible that your affair wasn't? No. If your marriage was a mistake, then why did you marry this guy? To get out of the house? To get back at your parents? Because you confused jealousy with love? Because his temper tantrums made you feel needed? <P>If your marriage wasn't a mistake, then what can you do to make it better?<P>If your individual therapy is designed as a precursor to marital therapy, then this counselor isn't equipped to do the latter, because she's already working on your divorce.<P>My therapist never takes "my side" in issues involving my H. She does, however, help me understand him, and she does have him pretty well pegged. This means she's able to read into what I say to get to the real dynamic of the relationship, and to help me with my thought processes and behaviors so that I can better deal with it.<P>That's what your counselor should be doing, instead of reinforcing this idea that your slick-haired and even slicker-talking OM was your own personal Heathcliff and telling you about NJ divorce law.<P>

Dazed has of nailed the answer on counseling. And I agree, given the right counselor, it could make all the difference.<P>I have never been to a counselor, so I don't know what I'm talking about.<P>I think it is great that you are reading books. If you get different ideas from different books and take what works for you, you'll be way ahead, with or without couseling. <P>Your problem is complex given that you aren't sure about your marriage. I honestly don't think it is in your best interest to leave your marriage when you are under such emotional confusion, but that's your choice. You, with or without a counselor, need to chart a course, at least for the short term.<P>Although it may be important to understand what compelled you to marry your H, I think that even though you may conclude it was a mistake AT THE TIME, that doesn't mean your marriage is a mistake NOW.<P>Perhaps I am way too sensitive to this because it came out in the days after the discovery that H didn't want to marry me. After we got engaged, he changed his mind. Although I do remember some minor concerns (like would I mind if he continued to rock climb), I thought they were resolved. His old letters sounded like he was excited about our wedding. I don't know if this is something blown up out of porportion in his mind, or he really didn't want to get married at the time. However, if he had to make the choice again, given what he knows of the life we made, I really believe he would do it again. So our wedding was a mistake, our marriage now is not. <P>Hummingbird, just shared that to restate that just because you got married for the wrong reasons does not mean that you should not stay married. The relationship and the potential for the relationship are more important than past garbage.<P>Although you certainly should understand what happened to make you vunerable to an affair and what you need to do to be less vunerable, I think you really know what happened and you would not see the beginning of the relationship as an innocent friendship again.<P>I think what we all need to know is that:<P>We feel what we feel, but we are committed to doing the work necessary to move toward the feelings we want to have.<P>We can not control another person, but we can greatly influence a relationship by our own positive participation.<P>A person will only change if they want to change, that includes us.<P>What we percieve may not always be the facts. The way we think about a person and the way we interpret situations is critical. (Remember my Dance story?)<P>Unfair things happen, but we are all personally accountable for the rest of our lives. We choose our own happiness by determining our own values and beliefs then living a life congruent with them. We are not corks bobbing in the ocean, we have our own rudders and sails.<P>So what am I rambling about? Again, I don't know what I'm talking about regarding counseling, but from what I have read in many posts leads me to believe that many counselor's don't even have the basic truths of life nailed down for themselves.<P>A good counselor, especially if/when you go into couples counseling would be golden, but your, Hummingbird, in my uniformed opinion, is a waste of money.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Hummingbird:<P>I'm going to give you my quick, party-line $0.02.<P>Your counselor doesn't seem to be very effective. Dump her.<P>Your ability to get over your OM is directly proportional to your ability to physically remove yourself from him. While you work together, you're crippling your chances. And I will assure you, as the sun rises each day, that it's very likely (should you end up with him) that in 10 years, he'll be saying the same things to a NEW girlfiend, and you'll be the *****y wife.<P>It seems that what you need is to learn appropriate behavioral skills to deal with your current marriage. I'd suggest that you do the phone counseling with Steve Harley here---you will be able to "get in", and you should give it at least 5-6 sessions. Steve will help you evaluate your marriage, and if you want to save it, he is very well-equipped to help you do it by focusing on behavioral changes. There will be items that you will work on. Tangible. You'll check them off as you complete them. And you'll be better off going through this process---regardless of whether you end up with your husband in the long run.<P>And even if you're not "sure" that this is what you want, I would suggest that you do it anyway. You will not be emotionally damaged for going through this process. And if you discover that you truly don't want your marriage, you will have invested a few hundred bucks for skills that will help you for the rest of your life. And you'll have worked with someone who is very pro-marriage and has given you the best tools to evaluate your marriage.<P>Call Steve (888-639-1639).

I was just thinking my OM and husband actually have alot in common. These qualities that were similar was actually what attracted me to him.<P>They are both:<P>Leaders<BR>Take action and take charge<BR>Strong Personalities<BR>Go Getters<BR>Persistent<BR>Quick minded<BR>intelligent<BR>Inventive<BR>Hard workers<BR>Achievers<BR>Love Landscaping and very talented at it<BR>Focused<BR>Self sufficent<BR>Not easily influenced<P>Plus, I fell in love with my husband because of his sense of humor, I actually like his kid like behavior, I guy I dated right before him was way TOO SERIOUS. And I also loved the way my husband talked, walked, smelled, his smile, everything. My husband has a wonderful smile and has really cute dimples too. I was attracted to him physically, ironically my previous boyfriend was overweight, I was really attracted to my husband's slender, muscular build.<P>How they differ:<P>OM is:<P>Arrogant<BR>Strong self confidence<BR>Extemely frugal, even cheap<BR>Dreamer<BR>Not reliable<BR>does not have a hobby, but is a workalcholic<BR>Is not loyal<BR>Is indecisive<BR>Is overweight<BR>Does not take risks<BR>Is fine with status quo<BR>Very romantic<BR>More serious type<BR>Family oriented, loves children<P>Also,I loved that the OM was not jealous or possessive, was calm, had patience, no overwhelming hobby, no temper, communicated with me and wants more children.<P>If my husband controls his temper, jealousy, is more romantic, talks to me, trys to have more patience then I'll start to feel more emotionally connected to him? If he told me he really wanted children? Base case scenario, we communicate more, I change my expectations, accept certain behaviors in him, will the love come back?<P>Maybe me feeling so emotionally connected to him is all in my head? FHL you wrote:<P>What we percieve may not always be the facts. The way we think about a person and the way we interpret situations is critical. (Remember my Dance story?)" <P>You are so right. I have become more sensitive more critical of him and I realize the OM closed my eyes to alot.<P>You said:<P>"Hummingbird, just shared that to restate that just because you got married for the wrong reasons does not mean that you should not stay married. The relationship and the potential for the relationship are more important than past garbage."<P>I'm thinking my marriage was a mistake.<BR>They say love is blind, I can see I was blind to alot of the faults in my husband. Everything I know today, I don't feel I would of married him again. Maybe I've changed, I know I am different than I was then. Having a family to me now is really important, it wasn't then and I know I was stupid but I'm being honest, my feelings about having children have changed, they were times I wasn't 100% sure, I enjoyed my independence. Also his hunting was not as excessive, which I know Dazed feels is a result of me being emotionally distant for two years, and I agree. His spending also increased as well. We NEVER used to argue over money, now we do alot. Maybe I've become more conversative (filling that mother role). I think I've also escaped further into dream world over the past two years, the romantic part of me really took over and the OM fueled that bigtime.<P>I will hold on to that. Even though I feel I probably shouldn't of married, maybe it will be the best thing for me in the future. I am married now and part of me doesn't want to throw everything away. I know he loves me.<P>All the lovebusting that chipped away at my marriage and my love for him and I'm really scared about my husband trying everything and the love not coming back. I know they are no guarantees in life and I know what my alternatives are, and I don't want to leave him today.<P>I just wish I knew for sure those feelings would come back.<P>I know my behavior skills need alot of work and so do my husband's. He says he's willing to try and alot of times what he SAYS and DOES is a different story. Bad habits are very hard to break.<P>Everyone is right about my counselor. God, it really stinks. I will give calling Steve some thought, I'd really like to speak to someone in person. Maybe he could refer me to someone in my area.<BR>

Hummingbird, Bravo on all of your soul searching. It must be emotionally exhausting. I think you on your way to unraveling and identifying your problems and their causes. Not easy.<P>I hate to divert your thoughts to OM, but I just had to make a few comments. <P>You assuming those character traits in OM are facts and instead I think they are interpretation or perception, not the honest truth. Of course I think the bad traits are dead on <P>Anyway, you know he can be romantic. Would he be in a long term committed relationship? Doubt it. I think he used it as a tool to manipulate and woo. How romantic do you really think he is with wife?<P>Not jealous? How could you know this, unless of course you are refering to his ability to share you with your H?<P>Workaholic could be just as bad as a hobby. Anything that intrudes on the priority of your relationship.<P>No temper. I bet you have no clue. If you could have a camcorder in his house I bet you would be appalled. You even said you would hear conversations with his wife...then he would say she "deserved" it. Does anyone deserve to be treated poorly? Do you think that in a long term relationship with him, he wouldn't come to believe you "deserved" things, too?<P>Ability to communicate...OK...maybe he's has better skills than your H, but he also has ability to manipulate and lie. I'd take honesty anyday, even if it meant less articulant (spelling)?<P>The child thing. Could it be that to your H, being a child means being in pain? Could this be subconscious? Maybe his attitude is related to his vile baggage. Also, if your relationship has been rocky, he has no desire to bring a child into that envionment, but does not really want to voice that out loud.<P>Just more thoughts...overall, I think you are moving ahead!!!<P><P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Hummingbird,<P>I have been reading your ongoing story for a long time. I believe I may have even posted to you. However, I feel there are somethings I need to tell you about children.<P>I have three children two teenagers and one about to be a teenager. I married in my 30's and to tell you the truth, I really did not care if I got married or had children. My career and outside activities kept me plenty happy. I met my wife and it was not love at first sight, we had a blind date and very clearly did not like each other. Over time things changed. We got married. My wife will tell you that the only time she has ever really seen me (pale almost green) was the morning she told me she was pregnant with our first child.<P>Many years later those children are the light of my life. I spend all available time coaching them, going to sports, scouts, whatever. If I could quit work and take care of them full time I would.<P>What was the change? There really wasn't one. I was deeply concerned if I would be a good father. I worried about finacial obligations. I worried about their affect on my relations with my wife (I was right). The H's do move to the end of the line when children come. Most of those points never really happened. The last definitely did and I have always felt it is the one thing men worry about most about having children.<P>Now look at your H. From what you said he had a horrible childhood. I believe FHL pointed out that subcon. this worries him in the "like father like son vain". He probably worries more about finances than you think (if for no other reason less toys). However, you can remind him if you have children, he gets to go into real toy stores and buy toys and not feel self-conscience. LOL Remind him he must share tho.<P>Now we come to the final issue. Where in the line will he fall with you if you two have children? For two years, you have been giving the OM the attention and affection that you H should have been receiving. He knows something is wrong. How do you expect him to feel confident about being a father and H? Yet, he has said he is willing to have children. What more do you want????<P>It seems to me given what he has said, that having children is not really an issue. You are simply using it to justify your relationship with OM. He has said he is willing. Men do not view children the same way that women do. So quit expecting him to. Men fall in love with children after they are born and they can see, smell, and touch them.<P>IMHO before children enter the picture, you must divorce youself from OM. Then you and H must repair your marriage. If you do that, then children are an option. It has been said before but I'll say it again. Children put tremendous strain on a marriage for many reasons not the least of which is that H's get moved down the line. <P>I might add that you are ONLY 30. You could easily be my daughter. Yet I have friends having children, with the wifes in the late 40's. Many of the families where I live have been two career families and did not start to have children until they were in there 40's. With modern diets, and health care the bio clock has been considerably slowed.<P>Please go slow here. Get the important stuff with H worked out. You are coming out from the influence of the OM. Go back and reread your postings. Your H is not a bad man and he probably has more in him than you have given him credit for. While I know that both of you are adults, you are still maturing and values changing. It seems to me FHL and others are dead on correct, about the marriage process and even marriages for the wrong reasons becoming good ones.<P>I hope you think about this.<P>Good Luck with your struggles.<P>God Bless You and Your H<P>

Thank you Just Learning.<P>I fear my judgement has been tremendously affected by the OM. You are correct. You made me smile when you talked about being pale green. I picture my husband being this way.<P>The OM told me that it was so wrong to have children if my husband didn't feel like he did. A man should want to have children and he always knew since he was much younger he wanted a family. He had that parternal instinct and a man who is "neutral" on the matter doesn't really want them. He said to me "he knows what he wants when it comes to everything else in his life, but children he's neutral? How could he not be excited about having a beautiful child with you, if he really loves you he would want a child with you".<P>You know I have this inbedded in my brain. I feel he should be jumping up and down saying yes, I want children. I know he'll never do that and maybe I do use it to justify my actions for leaving. Of course there are the other problems but this issue I know is one that I could feel somewhat comfortable with saying to myself "well it never would of worked, because he didn't want children". I know that's a copout. I know he worries about money problems, his family upbringing and everything else you mentioned. I haven't been the best wife, and I wouldn't want to have children with me either. <P>I know I'm still young and believe me having a child is on a back burner with me. There is no way I would now or in the near future. <P>You know now that I think of it, my OM wanted children so bad, he had a child in a really screwd up marriage and spent for first 3 years of his child's life sending my love cards, working really late and just basically devoting most of his (emotional) time to me. He even told me at times he wished he wasn't born so we'd could be together, he also told me that when he first had his child (everyone at work made up a huge billboard saying congratulations, we were just friends then, I had only known him for 3 months and although I thought he was attractive, my mind was not there with him) he looked at my signature and my message of "congratulations on your bundle of joy" for hours at home, he had that feeling for me even then. You know that's really sad. I feel sorry for his wife.

Yes, Hummingbird, feel sorry for his wife.<P>OM thoughts on you having a child with H? (gag) Excuse me. Do you think OM wanted to see you pregnant. Do you believe he may have told you those things to manipulate you?<P>I always thought I would want children, but accidently got pregnant our third year of marriage. I was scared and uneasy....until....I saw her. My heart literally melted with joy, H's too. I am the best mom and he is the best dad in both word and action in the world. We are the best parental team because we bring such diverse things into parenting and respect the other's role.<P>Your H may have doubts about children, but he may think that as a woman, it may be more your decision and he doesn't want to pressure. That may be his way of showing love and you are misinterpreting it to be proof he doesn't love you.<P>Look closely at your assumptions before keeping them.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Oh! Hummingbird!!!<P>What can I say. If your OM told that, there was only thing he wanted and you know what that was. Look at the father he has made. Cheating on W, working late, giving time and attention to you that should have been elsewhere. MY! MY! what good breeding material. <P>Actually, HumB ( I like that ) what I really want to talk about is your H. I can tell from your posts the OM is going, going, gone.It may take awhile but that is for sure. Your H is where my focus is and where yours should be. Clearly, since you enjoy Romance Novels, you have to my mind a very unrealistic view of men. They are both worse and better than you think. They do want children on a very instinctual level, why the high sex drive. We are designed for this part of our job. If men and women had the same drive, we'd be like rabbits. But we do not bear children, our hormones and responses do not compel us the same way as they do women. <P>I have traveled extensively in my life and I will tell you that men on the whole do not have that urgent sense of the biological clock. We are good to go given good health until we die. Your H's response is very normal. Once children comes then whole different instincts come in. Heard of "Women and children first". That is not a law, no had to form protest marches to get that idea across. It is a very reasonable thing to most men.<P>I am not trying to give you a biology lesson here. What you must come to understand is that you and your H WILL react differently to things. FHL said it well. She and H make a dynamite parent team because they are different. Guess why life is really a team sport. Neither men nor women can fill all childs needs to develop to full potential. Don't believe that? Look at the rapidly accumulating statistic on single parent children. It is not a kiss of death but it is clear two are better than one.<P>So please, please rethink your response to your H's position on children. I will tell you this I really I don't think I would have been a good father maybe not even H when I was in my 20's. I had too much partying, working, playing, chasing to do then. You two are entering a new decade in your lives you both are seeing things differently.<P>On that vane, please do not hold what your H did at 20, 25, 28 against him now. He is changing and maturing. So are you. Don't you think you've changed. You better had or all of this pain with the OM will have been wasted.<P>When you two are ready, just tell him he gets to go to the toy store more often. <P>Keep thinking Girl! Your getting there.<P>Good Luck and God Bless

May I beg to differ on the "When he sees the baby he'll love it" issue?<P>I have known four marriages in which a wife wanted children and a husband didn't. In one case, the husband was very vocal. In another, the husband said, "If you want them, OK, but you're going to raise them."<P>In each of those cases, the couple had children, and the marriage broke up. In one case it took seven months, in another case it took two years, and in a third case it took 8 years and the child being diagnosed aggressive hyperactive ADD.<P>I have firmly believed that if a man says he does not want children, BELIEVE WHAT HE SAYS!!! It is far too risky to bring a child into the world, and presume that he will have that "instinct." Some men do, some men don't.<P>How do you know if he's just scared or if he's not father material? I can't answer that. I know that my H has always been vocal about not wanting children, about knowing that he'd make a terrible father. He's not scared, he doesn't want them.<P>My H is very emotionally needy. In many ways, I give him the mothering he lost when his mother died over 30 years ago. If we had children, he would have to share that mothering, and he wouldn't like it one bit.<P>I know that about him.<P>Hum, if your H is like that, perhaps you should think twice. If he's just scared, or immature, it's a different story.<P>I'm not saying that because I know four marriages that split up over this, it means that NO marriages where the husband is ambivalent about it can thrive. But children put yet another strain on a marriage. It's not like romance novels, where baby makes three and you live happily ever after. But I think that to assume that your H will be fine just because some of the men here were fine with it is also not valid.<P>Look at Nellie -- her H has left her with six kids.<P>It's a crapshoot, I'm not saying it isn't. But the WORST reason to have children is to have "glue babies" -- in a vain attempt to bring a troubled couple closer together.<P>Sorry if the rest of you don't agree.