Very often here on MB, we see examples of truly cruel WS behavior. Very often here on MB, some well-meaning folks will jump right in and say things like, "I can't believe any WS would stoop so low as to cheat on you [with your brother/sister, while you were pregnant, while you were dying, fill in this blank with any other terrible thing], so you should just dump them! I would NEVER take my husband/wife back if they did something as awful as that!"

WS's are, by their very nature, cruel and hard-hearted toward their spouse, and children, and family, and everyone in their lives. My own grandmother, when in the throes of an A, abandoned my dying grandfather. My dad, still in his teens, had to call her up on her adulterous getaway, and tell her to get her behind home in time to be with my grandpa as he died.

This extraordinarily cruel behavior, far from indicating that a marriage can't or won't recover, is the NORM.

The one, the ONLY thing that keeps ANY WS from perpetrating extraordinary cruelty is....

ABSOLUTELY.

Waywards are cruel creatures. Also, think about it this way. You are often a different person depending on the person you are in a relationship with.(sorry just puked a little in my mouth ) That is why the BS senses something "different" about their WS even before finding out about the A. To continue to be wayward, they need to continue to be CRUEL.

APs DON'T bring out the best in each other. The A itself won't allow that to happen. How can it? Just the nature of betrayal deceit, etc are NOT the best parts of humanity. For MANY a wayward, this is the WORST time of their life. This is when they will perpetrate some of their most vial acts. Does that mean they won't change? Who knows? But as long as they are wayward, expect unimaginable cruelty. It's just part of dealing with a wayward.

After having been here for just over a year, I can tell you that NOTHING surprises me anymore when it comes to the actions of a wayward. BUT, another thing doesn't surprise me either. That is what a FWS CAN do when they redeem themselves. The choice lies within the wayward.

He was in his teens.

tl

Well stated Scotty!

I believe the elder Dr. Harley said he start out as an addiction specialist, and moved to marriage counseling when he realized how much similarity there was between drug addicts and adulterers - that they were all following the same dynamic.

It may help some of the BS here to study up on the nature of addiction. There are countless books, of course, and you can watch shows like *Intervention* and even *Celebrity Rehab*. The last one is often an overdramatized cheesefest, but it's worth watching for the things that Dr. Drew and the counselors will point out.

Addicts are monsters of cruelty and selfishness because they care about nothing except their drug - whatever drug that might be. They don't even care about themselves or they wouldn't treat themselves so badly. And IMHO, anytime you have a parent ignoring and even abandoning their kids there is an addiction of some kind involved. Nothing else can break that bond, whether it's a mom or a dad.

The addiction model explains a hell of a lot and Dr. Harley seems to have reached the same conclusion a long time ago.

I second what has been said here! Heck, I'm back at MB 7 years later to learn what to do for my 12 year old son who is now AGAIN hurting so badly at the actions of my xh/now ws of ow/wife. Because of adultery AGAIN and the addiction my xh apparently has to ow, he's getting another divorce and my little boy has had to deal with why he hasn't seen his half sister in almost 3 months. We have unopened gifts under our tree, and it saddens him (I had to put them away).

Waywards do not care what they do to others, including their own children. They use their fogspeak to gloss over their cruelty and their self-centeredness and that's that.

Heck, my x even refused to pay cs to us for several months after I'd moved to plan D because he felt I should have gotten far less (the ow's idea) and I almost was evicted from my home. He also ruined me financially and that last for oh...the last 7 years on my credit report, which is finally good now.

But they don't care. They do things and it's too bad for the others who have to take it. The bs suffers, the kids suffer, friends and family are baffled by the actions of the WS.

Just never underestimate the wayward.

And don't try to understand them, as it will baffle and bamboozle your mind so much it could possibly explode! Save yourself that stress. The Harleys have good info and stick to theirs as its' on target.

Yep, you got it.

AJ didn't cheat on me while I was pregnant. Why? Because I wasn't pregnant during the A.

AJ didn't cheat on me with my sister. Why? Because his OP didn't happen to be my sister. (And maybe because my sister would have cleaned his clock.)

AJ didn't cheat on my while I was dying. Why? Because I didn't happen to be dying during the A.

The notion that a WS who does these kinds of horrible things must be extra bad is a myth. They all are extra bad, and will be as horrible as circumstances allow them to be.

It bothers me to see these BS's being given anti-MB advice based on the faulty idea that their WS is somehow worse than other WS's. That is the crux of the matter, and why I brought up this subject.

Age correction duly noted.

Exactly where is the "Amen" smiley?

You know what? There was one piece of fog speak that I got that absolutely nails it down about the OP; "He was just there."

Cannot get any simpler than this. There is nothing special about the OP, other than that they are there, ready and willing to cross every line, and with the WS destroy anything that attempts to reinforce those lines.

Yup!

By the time she got done with him, he wouldn't have had enough of a clock left to be "cleaned." EVERYBODY should have a sister like Neaksis!

tl

WS should not be compared, like fish, I agree.

But some WS actions and sexual acts are, quite frankly and simply, criminal.

When those type of boundries are crossed, I believe not only should the law be invoked, but the BS has to weigh and consider this WS in this new light.

Neak mades a great point, we should no grade WS Fogginess. (and I admit in the past I may have).
Neither should we say all WS behaviors are the similar and should be treated as such.

That's true, there's not a grade to be given to each ws, but what I know (after having dealings now for almost a decade with xwh) that if they remain a ws, and it goes on, then the actions get more despicable. There are few boundaries left to cross. That is what happened to my xwh. He actually did break the law, lost his job and was in jail.

That was um...last year and as a result of his continued cheating and lack of boundaries or honor. And like Barbiecat said, some actions are criminal. In the natural progression of his addiction, my xwh actions imho, did become just like that.

Each situation is unique, but it is true, so so true, that the ws will take advantage of whatever situation is presented before them for no reason at all, or for any silly reason they come up with.

I'm so glad you're happy now. A WS who stays a WS really is capable of anything.

t/j to my friend peachy! It's so nice to have you back!

OMG! When I called the OW when her father died (2 days after d-day), those were her EXACT words! The only difference was that she was the OP and talking about my WH. I beleive she said something to me along the lines OW: I was going to leave BS anyway, it just happened a little sooner than I wanted, and WH, well WH just happened to be there." Since my WH is her OP, this makes perfect sence.

So True...... Oh So True!

Love you guys! And Mel, love you too <3 !

Ya'll can reach me at bellnga@yahoo.com! I still love me some southern bbq btw!

Or even Texas style!

Love me some peaches and cream, too! Heard you're now famous on Yahoo.