How many miles? Lol.

Well she might be skiing in NY, or is it Maine?

This is so true Harmony of my H as well. I am reminded of a quote I heard: �Just because somebody doesn't love you the way you want them to doesn't mean they don't love you with everything they got�. So true, so true.

Your funny, saying you don't understand men that well...well...do you think most of the women on this board do? Men always say women are so complicated. HARDLY!!! Difficult, maybe, but complicated...NEVER.

There's alway hope, Harmony. Hope is what gets us out of bed in the morning. "I HOPE I can get through this day" and we do. Hope is what keeps us from quitting right now and walking away and throwing in the towel.

Don't throw in the towel just yet Harmony. If YOU still have hope...then there's a chance.

Harmony, you're doing great:-) I'm posting under my H's alias, but we both wish that the strenght you seem to have found lately will keep growing.

As for the addiction, this is just one and only of my addictions I feel good about...

Niitse

Morning All,

MB addict here.

Thanks for your posts, I could not get on the ski trip for NYE, no room at the inn, so I am staying put. Shame I was looking forward to wearing my new 'outfit'!! Although I am arranging to go at the end of the month with my 'online friend' and also going on the 11th with some GFs for a week in France.

I have a great Jan planned and looking forward to getting back to work and into a routine. I never thought I would say that!

Anyway, as usual with spare time have been doing more thinking.

I have just read 'The 5 Primary Love Languages' which is really good. I have thought back a lot to how things were before the A, and according to the book I wasn't that bad at all and met many of his needs.. I was very supportive wife and encouraged H to start his business and helped him do it, and encouraged him to take up golf again and even played with him a few times. I also got really excited and creative about his business which were very top ENs for H. I have learnt that H important needs are Domestic support and Admiration. Although that could be a DJ, as I haven't heard that from him

There were many things I did do that weren't so good, mostly love busters like not taking his feelings into consideration before planning something, making DJs and having angry outbursts. However, my H said that he was happy before the A and could not understand why I did it, therefore I was meeting the majority of his ENs.

My H showed me his love in ways I did not understand. He did not know the way to show me love the way I needed it, but I did not appreciate his WAYS of showing me love. I have worked out that my biggest EN is recreational companionship. I was never angry with H for playing golf or working late, I just wanted him to put as much effort into those other activities into ME. I did not understand if he could arrange a golf day out, then he could surely arrange a day out with me...This was the start of the downward spiral, if he didn't want to be with me or spend time with me then he didn't really love me at all. Yes a huge big DJ, I know.

Anyway I guess I understand more about the dynamics of a relationship now, which explains why I always knew I loved him but didn't feel satisfied at all times.

Something I donn't understand is when he found out about the A, he said he was so happy with his life and was annoyed at me for destroying it, then in time he started to think of all the things I did wrong before the A. That confuses me.

The things H mentioned he was unhappy about pre A and my thoughts are;


1. Going away for the weekend after our wedding with my mother and brother. (I wanted to go on honeymoon straight after the wedding but H said it was too expensive and he went back to work after the wedding so I took the time to spend with my bro and mother)

2. Inviting his mother for Xmas late Nov, then early Dec saying we had invited too many people and could they come for the evening? (this was the worst thing I ever did and I admit this, it was a passive aggressive response on my behalf to the way she had treated me and was my attempt and stamping control - whoops).

3. Was reluctant when H first mentioned getting married. My H wanted to propose to me in Venice, I wasn't sure about M never have been, was scarred by my parents divorce, this and some of the red flags in our r'ship made me uneasy. I knew I loved him but had doubts, not just about him, but about me! Looks like I was right He was also unhappy because he wanted to get married straight after the proposal and I wanted to wait a while.

4. I broke up with him early in the r'ship about after 12 months together. We split up about about 6 weeks. I found out that my exBF of 7 years had got his GF pregnant, I got very upset and ran to my mother almost had some like breakdown about it, it brought up a lot of hidden feelings about an abortion I had in my early 20s, i did not know whow to deal with it and broke things off with my H as it didn't feel right crying over an ex's baby with someone new. I thought I wasn't ready. H was very upset. I think this made him very insecure and left a taint on our rship for a long time. When I had the A, he said he had only just forgiven me for that.

5. After about 1.5 half together I was going to buy a flat on my own, he gave me an ultimatum saying that of i did not buy the place with him then we might aswell split up. He said his mother thought it was odd.

Thinking all these things through, H never seemed to be bothered about them at the time, sometimes I wander does his Mmother have more effect on him than I realise. I wander if she is what we call over here a complete chit stirrer, and plants many seeds of doubt in his head. In fact this whole thing could be a decider for him, does he believe what his mother says or does he believe me? He did seem to spend an awful amount of time trying to prove to her my 'worth'. Which ofcourse was completely pointless. Am I ever going to be able to 'win' against her? How ddo I put that in the Plan B letter?

Sorry for the long post, thanks for reading.

lol Harmony, don't feel bad about the MB addiction...Niitse is right, it is an addiction we can at least feel good about! So you're in good company!


You must be talking about Chapman's book - it is a very good book and really helped me to understand how people express love differently.


My H was the same way. He was happy, thought everything was going fine. In my case, it was because I was lousy at communicating my needs to him. I didn't know how to articulate how I felt other than vague statements of how I wasn't "happy," and his response was usually along the lines of "It's not my job to make you happy." What neither of us understood is that yes, happiness has to come from within, but our jobs as husband and wife were to meet each other's needs.


Exactly what I have learned. My H showed me love in ways he understood...by being a devoted father to the girls; by going to work every day (and only in the last year have I learned how unhappy he was with his job - yet he got up every morning and went because he was driven to provide for us); by doing things around the house (he can really do anything, and whatever he does he wants it to be perfect - like when I decided I wanted a red living room and it took him 4-5 coats of paint to get it "just right"!); cooking dinner for us almost every night; rearranging his schedule so I could stay home with the girls when DD#2 was born, and again so I could go back to work full-time.

But like you, one of my initial mistakes was thinking, "If he loved me, if he really loved me, he'd KNOW what I needed!" I felt neglected. I missed how he used to call me "beautiful." I assumed I must have stopped being beautiful to him. I thought since he didn't want to touch me, he didn't love me. But many times his reluctance to touch me was because I was reacting to him disrespectfully (sidebar - check out "Love and Respect" for a really insightful read).


Me too. On my end, I'm just hoping that the knowledge did not come too little, too late to save my M.

Harmony, all the other "stuff," that your H now said he was unhappy about, well, it could be rewriting history or it could just be a manifestation of poor communication between the two of you. There were times that my disrespectful behavior did bother my H, but he never told me about it. Missed opportunities for O&H and growth together, I suppose.

Not much advice from me, I'm afraid, but just letting you know I hear you, girl! Take care and enjoy your ski trip (although I would advise wearing sunscreen with that outfit - you know the sun reflects off of the snow and that may intensify the UV rays...)

LOng posts? Yeah I hate that..

Tom,

I read you post to me and frankly I cannot figure out what you are saying or what your problem is with my advice. care to clarify you thoughts for me?

JL

How about that plan B rewrite letter?

I am nervous about that I admit.

The last one was not that good if you remember, and we never had a chance to go over it. Also, you gave it to him and he crumbled it up and left it.

If it was a good letter, and had a simple plan for BOTH of you to follow, then I would just say copy it and give it to him again.

But it was weak, and you didn't/couldn't stay dark because of circumstances. So its not gonna work Harmony, because you sre not doing it.


Someone asked you if you were going for "Plan resentmet" I am saying that you are heading that way if you don't give him a clear option, and just stay dark with no plan on reconciliation.

What do you believe? That this will just go away? That you don't need to give your dreams of a good marriage a plan? Do you think that you will find someone who doesn't have issues to deal with? Thats fantasy

Right now you are dark, seeing the problems and not appling the solution. Justifing your reasons to leave, and building up the fears because you saw the mistakes. There will be no hope of reconciliation if he doesn't have a clear and uncomplicated list of requiremernts, and THAT, you know, was part of your communication problem. This is on you Harm, and part of the work of marriage.

Having hope will be part of believing there is a way to make this a dream marrige, one you both want and can work together on. But seeing the problems and talking about them will not help you if you don't have a solution. Thats the wisdom of DRH, and what MB and his counsel is about. You know this right? Have you read about his experience as a marrige counsellor?

Concentrate on a solution, and put it clearly on paper so WH has something to go on, then be dark and search yourself. No fair trying to understand it all and keep him in the dark. He has to be part of the solution also. Anything else is controlling as you ask him to just do what you say and trust you again.

Get that letter up and let us see it, help you tweak it, so he has something to go on. Unless you just want us to help you justify leaving him. Believe me unless there is violence or he stops his slow return to reality, I won't agree you should leave until you have given him a clear picture of what you want and expect. Then he has it on paper while you stay dark.

Just telling you like it is Harm, meant to help you focus on a future, not the past.

I will tell you from experience OK?

My late wife was a wonderful woman. Everybody loved her. She had been engaged 7 times before she met me. She did a lot of amazing things for many people in her life.

But she had one problem, she had no handle on drinking or whay it conntrolled her.

Trying to fix all the reasons she said she drank just was a waste of time.

Ignoring the solution and insisting she get treatment just put off the inevitable that she would relapse.

Why and what was her problem, but without insisting she get treatment long ago I gave in to my own ego that I was a solution. Thats the fantasy I see you heading for without a plan and the humility to follow it.

Its the same for everyone, with any problem, you must work a solutiom, not be hypnotysed by the problem and pain. Like scotty says in her sigline, "Scars don't have to dictate where you are going".

You didn't ask for this challange, but if you don't fight for your marriage with everything you have, you will know it deep inside. You may try to find reasons to cover up your fear and justify quitting, but that will just be more fantasy that will hurt you again at a later date.

I tell my kids the same thing. Everybody who will listen and has not allready made up thier mind,

Your WH is lost, he needs help, is it such a surprise to you that we all need that at some time? Give him help and hope with at least a letter, not contact, that is prolonging his pain too. I don't see him as someone who is hopeless.

Yeah me too Tom. What is your theory? But maybe it should be dicussed somewhere else. So we don't confuse this thread.

Ladies, don't let your actions weight too heavily on the misery.

I can tell you that I was happi-er pre-A than post, however, I was not "happy."

FWW had no idea how completely miserable I was, and had been for years, even though I had told her over and over that I was. She simply buried it under her own assumptions (DJ) and kept trucking.

Men have this problem of "if I ain't got nothin to complain about, I must be happy," and then we add in "ain't no use complainin!"

Counter-intuitive, no?

Whatever their poor actions were before, were probably fed by a denied unhappiness which they didn't vocalize, didn't know how to vocalize, or vocalized but got lost in transmission (AO/DJ).

Think back on what you have learned here; all those early relationship behaviors as you fall deeply in love, and how they fade over time due to a false belief in "unconditional love."

However, for you two, your husbands have not examined these feelings, they have not had it laid out before them so they can go "Aha! That's what happened! I felt it, but I couldn't explain it!"

And that neglect went both ways, maybe more on one side than the other, and it may have vacillated.

Again, you know why, while they don't! It was because you drift between those three states of marriage - intimacy, withdrawal, conflict. You unwittingly exhibited these behaviors over and over - one floating into withdrawal while another was in intimacy, then into conflict, and drawing the other back out.

The conditions that lead to your poor decisions may have been a pair of spouses entrenched in withdrawal, and one with a severe taker attitude and piss-poor boundaries.

YOU KNOW THESE THINGS NOW, and your husbands do not. All they know is pain and entitlement. Their takers are raging - and they don't know what to do.

You must serve as the light to lead them out!

Hiya HHH

Good post, gives me an insight into the Alien male thinking mode!

I am still hanging in here, really am angry about him going away over the New Year, also because I broke Plan B I knew he was going away New Year so all the thoughts under the sun run through my brain.

Had horrible dream last night, about H met and fallen in love with someone else a person who was so much better than me and would never have an A, and all his family were laughing at me. It was horrible!



I am really trying to serve as the light. I am staying strong in Plan B, have not contacted him in 9 days now. I think the dreams mean I am starting to go through withdrawal I just let it wave over me.

Sometimes I don't know if I have sorrow for H or Dad. They alternate I think!

I know that if I can get through this, I can get through most things. I have read a few threads lately about FWW whose H needed 'time out' to gather thoughts then eventually came round. I suppose I am looking for more than just a change of heart from my H.

OK I am pretending to be strong a lot of the time, but everything feels so weird and different and I have not felt peace in such a long time.

Revised Plan B Letter:

DH,

Words cannot describe how sorry I am for creating this mess, if only I could turn back time things would be so different. It is the worst decision I have ever made, and one that I will always regret for the rest of my life. I know I put you through incredible pain, both through the affair, treatment of you and lies. I am ashamed of my behaviour.

I honestly believe that it was a self destructive cry for help rather than a love affair. I should have told you the truth before the A, that I was struggling, that I needed your love, support, time and attention. I thought if I had to ask for it, it meant that you didn�t love me. I have realised that I have self destructive coping skills that surface when I am faced with difficult situations. The stressful new job, the house move, the house building, in law issues, your business finance issues, the wedding, the fertility problems, Dads cancer, all took its toll and I did not know how to cope. I let someone else meet my needs to make me feel better.

In the past 6 months, which has been very tough I have used this time to work on me and implement new coping tools, as this would have been prime time for me to get self destructive, but I have made it on my own and learnt to cope and be strong without doing anything I am ashamed of.

I take full responsibility for creating the position we are in, but I cannot take responsibility for some of the actions and decisions you have taken since. Some of those actions have been very painful and caused me many sleepless nights, nightmares, tears and anxiety. I know that if there were no other women involved, then I would have tried longer to win you back, but I had to pull back for my own sanity.

I have learnt that in order to receive forgiveness I need to give it too. I do not want to have a contest of who hurt each other more, or whose decision was worse than the other it is a waste of time. What I do want to do is apply new principles from the ground up, it�s what I have been waiting for 8 months�..but I cannot build a marriage alone. I still believe we can have a wonderful marriage one day if we truly made a DOUBLE effort at it with both of us.

Until you can truthfully and honestly return home and work with me on rebuilding our marriage, I will be having no communication with you, and I will avoid seeing you. This is not to punish you, it is to protect my feelings for you. If you need to contact me, please speak to sis.

For reconciliation to happen I would need the following from you before making a commitment to reconcile:

> A full confession
> A sincere, remorseful apology
> A recovery plan for us both

I truly love you H, and I want to have a happy fun life, doing all the amazing things we have talked about, you know what I mean. I want to be with you for the rest of my life.

I love you always, Harmony.

Cool Harmony, The list seems to unspecific. I would rather you were the one being specific, because that would reflect that there were certain goals you were aware of. But here is a list in priority demands,(needs) first. Hope it passes with everyone also. This is based on what I have heard from you and the state I imagine WH is in. It is also your list to him, and not his to you. He might want to negoiate also.

> A full confession ...an ablity to be totally open and honest with me about anything i ask about whenever I ask.

> A sincere, remorseful apology.....for what we both will agree was selfish behavior, not by my standards, but by anybody with a good marriages standards and the examples given in the MB program.

> A recovery plan for us both.. namely using the tools in MB to help each other, instead of ourselves. Examples..

1 using UA time to really spend time together concentrating on each other and falling in love again.
2 Practicing the policy of radical honesy and policy of joint agreement to sort out problems and find solutions together.
3 Examining whatever is going to effect each other and the marriage emotionally. This is of course done at a practical level too first. Lets help each other instead of hiding from each other.
4 Lets also use professionals to examine ourselves if need be, or help us overcome poor thinking or bad habits, if those things are causing each other pain. Lets go all out.

> Last but certainly not the least, and what I need more than anything, is for you to have a plan and dreams for us. visualized place with concrete steps you are building on, and show me that I am the most important person in your life, that I am like your own body, that you will take care of me well as you learn to take care of yourself, or we learn together.-------------------------------------

Theres a start on what I thought. Its long but someone else will have to be the expert on using less words. It is me after all. Whattya expect?

We could say.."go to a doctor and deal with your past issues with Mom" But you haven't even identified they are problems yet, and he will have to get on board with that though counselling with Dr H too.

Ok Vets? JL? Jessie? Scotty?, Mel?, or anybody who has been following this thread through from the start?

Hi Constant

Thanks for looking at my letter. I think you could be right about the terms of reconciliation. I am worried about making them too 'high'! Only because I am the FWW who started this mess so how can i put so many terms in place? Also because I am worried about frightening him off.

I feel so hopeless about my M tonight. He left the house 2.5 months ago, and has stayed here 2 nights. I think if he loved me would have come back by now...:(

Heart aches.

My WH has been gone for more than a year. And it has NOTHING to do with ME. That is all HIM. HE doesn't care for himself enough to correct the mistakes he has made in his life. And, I am BETTER today than I was last year. Get some more time in A TRUE DARK PLAN B. Again, knowing that your WH went away for NYE, HOW? You need to get DARK. NO CONTACT not just WITH him but ABOUT him. Come on Harmony, I KNOW you CAN do this.

Scottys right, instead of that dark and protected plan B where you could be working out your recovery and seeking dreams and plans for a marriage recovery, you again get triggered and distracted.

Lets get the letter figured out and delivered, and we will talk about dos and donts of plan B, and how WH might trip it up in his reactions as a foggy person too.

Here I go posting music again.

Just a huge part of me. It can make us laugh, cry, smile... it can destroy us, frighten us or empower us.

Listened to this one today, and thought of you, Harmony - as well as any other ladies in Plan B.






Chin up!

*edit*

LOVE the quote from the beginning of the video;

"There are those among us who are blessed with the power to save what is loved by another, but powerless to use this blessing for love themselves."

Ill see your Alicia Keys and raise you a Clinton Davis.

Think Gloria Gaynor singing, though Issac Hayes and the Jackson 5 might have had more coverage with it.

I remember a female singer, thought it was Roberta Flack but can't see a reference to that, so it might have been Gloris Gaynor.----------------------------------------

Never can say goodbye
No no no no, I
Never can say goodbye

Even though the pain and heartache
Seems to follow me whereever I go
Though I try and try to hide my feelings
They always seem to show
Then you try to say you're leaving me
And I always have to say no...

Tell me why
Is it so

That I
Never can say goodbye
No no no no, I
Never can say goodbye

Everytime I think I've had enough
I start heading for the door
There's a very strange vibration
piercin me right to the core
It says turn around you fool
You know you love him more and more

Tell me why
(tell me why)
Is it so
(is it so)
Don't wanna let you go!

I can never can say goodbye boy
ou ou baby
I never can say goodbye
no no no no no no no no no no no

ou! oh!
I never can say goodbye boy
ouuuuuuuu ouuuuuuuuuu
never can say goodbye
no no no no no no no no no no no

(chorus)


I keep thinkin that our problems
Soon are all gonna work out
But there's that same unhappy feeling and there's that anguish, there's that
doubt
It's the same old dizzy hang up
Can't do with you or without

Tell me why
Is it so
Don't wanna let you go

I can never can say goodbye boy
ou ou baby
I never can say goodbye
no no no no no no no no no no no ------------------------------------------------------


I like that quote too HHH. Reminds me of that line in the eagles song "Already Gone"

"So often times it happens,
that we live our lives in chains,
and we never even know we have the key"

Thing is, we can't stand to be alone, or our love to be rejected. Thats what really hurts, that what we are giving from the bottom of our hearts, of us, is scoffed at and not worthy anymore. Our sacrifice of ourselves and what we give was not recognized as valuable.

When someone accually treats us like that, we accually believe it.

Can we survive without human love? Sure but life seems so much richer with it. Once we have it, or feel it, it is very hard to feel right again without it.

But its possible, after getting past the rejection and pain, to love oneself, in reality, and without obsession and desparation, like human love can sometimes breed in the confusion and fear we hoped love would cure, from who we thought was going to save us.

Its a delicate balance, between taking care of ourselves and knowing ourselves, and taking care of someone else. We must come first, and we must have a balance also whithin ourselves, before we can truly help anybody.

So there is the wisdom of Plan B again, to get away from the drama yes preserve that precious commodity love, by preserving yourself.

Lol I am thinking of "What the world, needs now, is love, sweet love, " Old soul songs are running through my head tonight.