I was wondering what the affects of my WS's long term dishonesty (5 years+) about the affair(s) in specific, and about her feelings in general, could be with regards to recovery?

Besides the continual trickle truth and lack of detail when asked - even though she is well versed in MB principles by now - I also feel a very distinct lack of contrition, and I accept that many a FWW does not feel remorse for the A(s), however, I feel lack of sympathy/humility (or 'hitting rock bottom' as I have heard it being called here in the forums) and her taking a long time (7 months since DDay 1) to put in place corrective action; such as Radical Honesty.

What also bothers me is the effect of that dishonesty (and feelings for the POSOM(s)) over the years; what did it do to the relationship dynamics that led to later events - by no means would I use this to 'excuse' my own A; which was a clear breach of the marital vows and due to weak boundaries; but did it actually lead her into the current frame of mind that is making recovery so difficult?

What I am really looking for are other cases where the A's were hidden for a long time from the BS and what, if any, specific advise would apply.

The basic reason your wife lies is because she has much to hide. As long as she continues doing things that need to be hidden, she will continue to lie.

In your case, your wife is a very destructive alcoholic who has never recovered. This explains why she is so very destructive. You have problems here that go well beyond typical adultery.

If your wife got into an alcohol treatment program and really worked it, she could stop lying.

A liar can stop lying in one day. It is not hard. But it is hard when you have alot to hide and are committed to an independent abusive lifestyle.

Err...Melody you might have me confused with someone else . She was never an alcoholic.

But is this indicative of some other form of addiction? (Is garnering a lot of male attention defined as an addiction?)

(P.S: thanks for the recent comment on how up to speed I am on the MB principles, hopefully, my application will soon match them)

so sorry!! There is another new guy here with a similar name! I will catch up on your story and repost!

mea culpa and all that french crap!

Dear bxhubby:

Please read my and my husband's threads regarding long-term dishonesty. My husband (Cantgetitright - CGIR) had his first affair a year and a half after we were married and his most recent affair in 2005-2006. I only learned the truth about these affairs (plus a ONS with a prostitute in 1995 that I never knew about) in September of 2010. The only reason he finally told me the truth is because I told him that I would need him to take a polygraph to remain married to me, as up to that point, none of the information he had given me about his affairs made any sense.

Now that I have facts of these affairs, we are working on me learning the feelings and thinking he was engaging in during these times, both about the OW and about me.

The book Leadership and Self-Deception from the Arbinger Institute was instrumental for CGIR in understanding why he did what he did.

BUT, CGIR was motivated to stay married to me and was not engaged in an affair at the time he started posting here.

BV

P.S. I'm not sure how to link to our threads, but you can search our user names.

bxhubby, brokenvase gave you an excellent suggestion here. In the past you did not feel like you were getting the whole truth from your wife. Taking a polygraph can quickly change all that. One way to do it is to hand your wife a list of questions 48 hours before the polygraph appointment. Give her a chance to come clean before hand. Make the appointment and TELL HER 48 hours beforehand.

As far as stopping lying, that can happen today if she chooses to do it.

BV: OMG-so much of your previous posts (I've only read a few) sound so familiar and ominous. I remember reading thru CGIRs O&H thread and even sharing bits of it with FWW. Now, as I read your side of it, I can see so many of my feelings being put into words. I cant thank you enough and I can definitely say that I have felt/am feeling so much of what you have documented. I can only add this: one of the reasons I NOW 'fear' coaching on the phone with the Harleys is that it may lead me to a sense/hope in what could very well turn out to be a FR (which has happened twice already with devastating consequences)-a deeper FR which I will stake a lot of hope in, and I fear FWW is such a good/committed liar (and for whatever reasons-possibly many that you have described-will continue to lie even thru the coaching). The crux of the matter is that FWW is/has been so committed to R throughout the trickle truth (she has read all the books and listened to many shows, eliminating LBs and meeting ENs); yet she can reconcile that with not being completely O&H and gaslighting me a few times already.

ML: polygraphs are an impossibility in the country I live in (sorry, cant provide more detail than that). I also had a question: does Dr Harley ever recommend polygraphs and does he make it a 'make or break' condition to stay with a dishonest FWS? Specially if the FWS wants an R?

Dear bxhubby:

Just a quick reply - CGIR and I counseled with Jennifer Chalmers (Dr. Harley's daughter) in October of 2006. I knew CGIR was having an affair at that point because I listened to his voice mail and heard the OW talking about it; I was also the first person to listen to her hysterical message when CGIR "broke up" with her. At that time, CGIR only admitted to two fairly chaste kisses and said one of them was initiated by the OW. I half-believed him at that time, as it was what I wanted to believe.

While CGIR got some benefit from talking to Jennifer, he lied to her throughout our entire counseling period. Our counseling was fairly brief, as the affair had ended a few months before and CGIR was not in withdrawal and did not want to leave me. CGIR told her (without me listening) "his side" of the story which was the same story he told me - two kisses and that was it. (You may remember from our threads that the affair was physical and was initiated/maintained by primarily by CGIR).
If he really wanted to tell the truth, he had the perfect opportunity - he could have told Jennifer and asked her to help him tell me.

I'm not sure what to advise you re: counseling with the Harleys, but will tell you that those committed to lying/trickle truth WILL lie to the Harleys and CAN "get away with it." The ONLY thing that convinced CGIR to be honest with me was the promise (not threat) of a polygraph.

One thing that I have asked CGIR to do is write a letter of apology to Jennifer; he has not done it yet, but in his defense, I only brought it up once and at the time, we were dealing with more urgent matters.

Good luck - I know where you are.

BV

Know where you are too. My xwh also lied his butt off to our counselor. He actually made her think I had issues. Good liars can do that, throw people off their lying scent by pointing a blaming finger at their betrayed spouse.

There has to be a way you can get this done. I like Mel's idea about the lie detector test, or you could say that you're going to see a counselor for a "specialized test to prove truth vs. lying" and hit her with about 100 questions first the day before.

There's always something you can use. I'd just create a situation where he would feel more apt to tell the truth than hide it further and lie some more. Appeal to the wayward inside of her and give her an option and an easy way out. (ie, give you the truth and just answer truthfully so she doesn't have to go get a lie detector test or take a painful psychological test which would show her true colors).

But they'll lie and not care who they lie to. My xh just took his affair with monkeyho further underground when this went on.

So, in your opinion, no amount of coaxing/building up LB$/pleading for the truth 'for the sake of a recovered marriage' will help?

Every single DDay was brought out by me insisting upon the truth.

I believe with every DDay, she feels more entrenched in her position of concealing whatever she is trying to conceal.

I can definitely say that it is eating me up inside and making me extremely bitter.

She has been having an "easy way out", since she is now certain she didn't and wont get the reaction she always feared she would if I ever discovered the A's (AO's DJ's and a messy divorce)-I thought that would be motivation enough. She also knows that I am committed to R regardless-its the deceit that is eating me up now.

I did, shortly after DDay 4, make the mistake of threatening to leave her if she didn't start being truthful; because I discovered a HUGE time difference of her first A's; by her report: 3 months-which turned out to be more than a year (and I had to find this info through extensive computer forensics).

I was dumbfounded by her pleading ignorance and not knowing for sure how long it was. She hasn't changed this position. Just as she hasn't changed her position on not remembering the name of the significant EA (possibly PA) POSOM from back then ('05-06).

Short of polygraphs, are there any other means to establish truthfulness?

Truth serum!

Dear bxhubby:

CGIR lied to me for a variety of reasons: he felt justified in engaging in some of the behaviors he was engaging in (viewing porn; "just talking" on the phone to the OW; viewing female co-workers on social networking sites like MySpace and Facebook; viewing other internet sites I explained made me feel bad about myself), thought he had these behaviors "under control" (so they wouldn't escalate like they did in the past) and, later on as he saw the years pass and me not get any better, feared that I would leave him. Early on (and we are just starting to talk about this now) he lied because he blamed me for "overreacting" to his "no big deal" behaviors.

The immediate reason for him to tell me the truth was the polygraph; the things that seemed to make it all come together for him were posting here, talking to Schoolbus and ConstantProcess and reading the Leadership book. I will forward him your thread so he can explain this to you himself.

But, unfortunately, counseling (both with Jennifer and with an individual counselor - I made him go to one to discuss his chronic lying); me BEGGING, crying, becoming sick and beginning to fail at areas of my life I had formerly succeeded at and him not getting the things he wanted from our relationship (he wanted me to begin having fun with him and focusing on the future instead of always spiraling down into the past) didn't sway him. He even watched me go to individual counseling for a year (not paid for by insurance, by the way) to work on "my" issues with recovery and trust. Counseling did not help me (now I know why of course - what I was there to "recover" from was still happening) and I was thinking about beginning medication to help with anxiety and depression. I asked CGIR if, at the time, he would have watched me take medication and probably suffer the side effects of significant weight gain and loss of libido and STILL not help me by telling me the truth and he said probably yes.

Again, I will try to get him to post to explain what turned things around for him.

BV

Just a response to the thread title - in terms of infidelity, yes it can be "mind altering."

The betrayal and dishonesty can be both emotionally and mentally traumatic - it is a rather severe form of abuse. This is evidenced by BSs who experience PTSD.

In some psychological theory, there are two major things that can completely alter a person's personality; brain injury, and emotional or psychological trauma.

Yes, the very person you are CAN be changed by infidelity.

alas! if only!

Hi bxhubby,

I browsed through your posts and you've said elsewhere:


That is a shameful lie. Has she done that yet, write those NC letters? Also, did you tell your children the truth about your own past and their mom's? Does anybody outside your closest family know about your affairs? If not, my guess would be that since she has not dealt with REALITY and SHAME yet, she has not tasted ANY kind of consequences of her actions and she probably thinks that there is no consequences whatsoever. The situation is not painful enough for her just yet and she is taking what the situation offers her. I stopped lying when there was nothing else to do or go (well, divorce would have been another choice) except to tell the truth and take what I deserved. The shame was unbearable at times, but there would not have been any other way but just through it.

Do you know where I can get some?

@BV: thank you for your inputs, I would really appreciate knowing from CGIR what 'clicked' in his head to make a turn around.

@HHH: I was wondering what changed in HER through her years of deceit/hiding her A's?

@Niitse: yes, she did finally send NC's to two of the recent OM's: both were long distance EA's-one being an ex-BF ("I only ever remember being TRULY happy with him, it was when I was TRULY myself"); one of them returned with a mail delivery failure. I am partly to blame for delaying her on sending her NC's since I felt she was trying to close accounts/her books on stories she hadn't completely or honestly disclosed. I still feel uncertain because of her insistence on not remembering the names/details of OM(s?) who were NOT long distance but those A's occurred (by her account) 5+ years ago.

On Exposure: I honestly do not know how to address this question. I am struggling on how to implement this essential principle (for my own A's and for my FWWs). We live in a country that carries heavy penalties for sex (or even suspected sex/sexual misbehaviour) outside of marriage (incarceration, deportation, corporal punishment)-this would also have serious consequences for the children. Added to that, the societal tendency is to talk and loose talk can easily get reported to the authorities here. Additionally, exposure would be primarily to my family since they are the ones in this country. FWW has no family to speak of in this country, her mother passed away (cancer) at the time the first set of her A's ended (4 years ago). She has a broken relationship with her father (who was a WS and a drunk) who lives in another country, her only sibling (brother) is also in another country and has little to no bearing on her life; his moral compass is a bit broken (my DJ on him). Since both of us are currently not in ongoing A's-I dont know how exposure can be of much help. I DO recognise that it is THE ONE thing that helps lift the fog and can bring about accountability.

I think our shame/accountability is currently mainly to each other since we both *supposedly* upheld a higher moral code (I snark at myself for that bit of grand self-delusion) and it was one of our primary motivations to marry.

True to what you said-D is the only consequence we both have to fear and even for that she keeps asking for reassurances (she feels she has no life options outside of staying in this M). I feel in a situation where control/power is still at play-yet I do not wish for it/want it since I know that to have a healthy M I have to relinquish my past behaviours of being controlling or abusive in any way. (PS: before anyone jumps up and shouts it, no - there was no physical abuse-I just mean the term 'abuse' in the way Dr Harley describes it).

Schedule a polygraph, tell WW when the date is, as the day approaches, as many WW have done, your WW will spill the beans just before she has to go for the polygraph test.

Well, I guess we'll have to travel to another country for the polygraph.