Okay, I think that's step 1 and 2, or just step 1. There's more steps after that.

I feel for you on this. My husband has some strong OCD tendencies that are very difficult to live with. It has taken me twenty years (and a counselor) to objectively recognize that things like him pulling the bandaid wrapper out of the trash to put it in the recycling are not really about me but about him. However, since he has a very black and white idea of how the world "should" be (chairs squared?), it makes me (in his eyes) wrong because bandaid wrappers SHOULD go in the recycling. So while I understand that it gives him the heebie-jeebies on a massive scale just knowing it's there, it is very very very hard to live with. I haven't folded a pair of his socks in 19 years because he told me one too many times that I did it wrong, wasn't matching them by color, age AND thickness. At which point I developed a severe case of blue/black/brown color-blindness that remains uncured to this day.

I'm unclear, though, from some of your posts if you find this stuff more tolerable when it isn't COMBINED WITH the traveling? Sometimes you speak of that in-between period being a peaceful one (although presumably his behaviors in that respect have been consistent throughout), and sometimes it seems like these things are dealbreakers unto themselves.

CWMI, I read your thread but don't often comment because I feel I wouldn't know how to help. I do feel for you. I do not have things like you to deal with, but I know the pain of the ONE thing you are dying for from your spouse being the ONE thing they won't do (or stop doing). I know that hurts.

I also know there comes a point when it has gone on so long that - at least for a season - the only thing you can think to do is detach so you won't say the really angry things you wish you could say. yeah, I'm terrible enough to admit to having angry thoughts sometimes....the horror

I have heard people, namely quoting Harley himself, say over and over that UA time is paramount and that couples shouldn't travel away from each other. So it seems to me that what you are wanting is MB 101 type stuff. I'm sorry that it isn't happening.

There is no love left. Plan B now. Or live in misery until one of you snaps. Your choice. but if you stay, remember that your unhappiness is not your H's fault. It is by your own choice.

As you know, I have chosen to stay in an unhappy marriage for years. I do not suggest you follow my path.

Forgive me if I missed it, but is there a recent incident that has caused you to be so upset....did he tell you he is going to travel or do more evening events?

Yes, SW. More events, more travel. Who was it, Jackblack? who took me to task for not being happy after my H said he would tell his boss NO MORE TRAVEL, asked why I wasn't happy and I said because I didn't believe him?

I was right not to believe him. here: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2459790&page=41

CWMI,

Do you believe your husband's perspective is more problematic for your family than just the events/travel issue?

I have to admit that your post about him shutting the hotel room lights off and making everyone go to bed at 7 pm during his New Orleans jaunt really bothered me. His level of detachment toward his own kids is disturbing. It was down-right mean for him to do that. There was no reason for it.

Don't you feel like you are the one keeping the relationship between him and the kids going? What type of father is he to his children at home? Does he engage them in healthy and fun ways? Or are they kinda like "just there" to him?

Yes. There are many problems, and his perspective that recreational companionship is something you get from friends, not spouses, is a biggie. It's difficult to deal with when I think your romantic partner should also be your best friend and favorite companion, and he thinks the nature of the very relationship makes that an impossibility. Like you shouldn't be friends with a lover. Weird.

He'll snuggle with the kids while watching TV, play computer games with them, he's not all detached or angry. I have my moments where I'm thinking, "Ugh, can I have a little time to myself???" too, where I just want them to settle down and leave me be, so it's hard to condemn him when really, I get it...four kids is a lot to handle, and even though I've handled it mostly by myself as the SAHM, I do try to think of what it is like to work all day and come home to NOT QUIET. lol.

I do want him to do something about his anger, and not just because it's hurtful to all of us when he AOs, but because of his perspective that you can't love someone and be angry at them at the same time. That hurts worse than any old AO.

He read this entire thread the other night (Monday), and hasn't said a WORD about it except that he's having lunch with his boss today to tell him, fer realz, that travel is an absolute no-go. I so want to believe him this time. I'm such a sucker.

Recently, my DH read some posts I made on a forum. Because I didn't have the fear of rejection factor, I had been a lot more....blunt about my feelings. When DH read it, his first instinct was to be hurt and mad....but after that settled and he really started processing just what he read.....some things clicked that didn't seem to click when the two of us talked. Maybe that will happen for your DH. I hope so.

Ugh. Who knows. He called to say that it happened, he had the lunch meeting, it went well, he told boss that he promised me that he would not do any travel and he's not going to hurt me with it anymore.

But he also said that the old co-worker of his who wanted me to do his taxes last year called him to ask if I'd do them this year, after I refused to do them for him last year because I don't like the guy, he was giving my H VERY BAD advice and was the one who took him in when he moved out on us in the middle of the night. I want that guy far, far away from my family. And H knows this. But asked me on his behalf anyway. And when I said, "I refused to do it for him last year, why would he think I'd do it this year?" he started pressuring me. That's why the guy didn't ask me, right? He has (or had) my phone number and my email addy. No, he went through my H because I would say no, but if he has the chance to make my H think I'm a b*, he'll take it. Jerk. Anyway, it's his and one other guy's, so I doubled the price that H&R would charge and told H if they'll pay it, I'll do it.

And scratch that. I emailed the dude and asked him to not go through my H again, to deal with me directly. So he asked me, and I told him no, just like last year, and asked him to remember it for next year so he doesn't inadvertently start any arguments between my H and I again. Ugh.

H is po'd...thinks I threw away money, I asked him if money was more important than my feelings and he said no, so I asked him why was he pressuring me and saying, "Think of it like this: it's someone you don't like, so you may as well take their money."

H said, Why didn't you tell me no to begin with? I said I did! I did say no, not interested, don't like the guy, don't want to do anything for him. Then came the money-from-people-you-don't-like comment, then the guilt trip about cigarettes and how much they cost.

I really don't need this today. I handled this wrong, I should have stuck with the solid no I started with.

Indeed.

Oh, CWMI, there are so many boundary issues in the way you and your DH handle things. Good that you set the ex co-worker straight, but to bad it wasn't done as a united front...you and DH together telling the dude you aren't interested in doing business with him.

Your poor hubby definitely received mixed messages from you. But you get that, so no 2 x 4's.

About my earlier question regarding DH and his children, you answered tv/snuggle time and computer games. There has to be more, right? I'm asking what hands-on activities does he consistently do with each child and with the kids collectively? I'm trying to get a better view of what is going on.

Also, you seem like you aren't sure if your DH is being honest about the travel conversation with his boss. Ask your H to tell his boss that you will be calling to say "thank you" for being understanding of the travel issue. Have him also ask, "What will be a good time for my DW to call." Lovingly make it clear to H that the boss will be getting a thank you call from you, so you want to know when it's convenient for the boss,that if not, you'll have to stop by the office to say thanks. Heck, even better, maybe you should run by the office to say a personal thanks and bring them lunch.

I'm suggesting this because you and DH need to have an united front in your marriage. From reading your thread, I don't get the impression that you and your H even put on a show of being a couple united, standing steadfast against outside forces.

I think both of you are afraid to say/do something out of fear the other will get frustrated/angry/offended. The individual boundaries aren't firmly established. A "no" can become a "yes" and vice versa, for both of you.

That leaves you in a very weak position with each other and to outside forces. He doesn't know when he can absolutely say "yes" or "no" personally for himself, or for you, if need be. And the same applies to you with him.

You're going to have to begin with you and put in place a policy of absolute consistency at first. This will empower your DH to stand firm because you are firm in your approach. He won't be afraid that he's going to make a wrong choice that will ultimately upset you. He will know right where you stand on things.

He does seem to be trying, I give him mega credit if this is the case.

Steering the M in a different direction takes time and practice. You as a couple have the knowledge to do it. If you both can communicate with each other better and remain firm in your resolve, it will get better.

1. Shouldn't this be POJA'd?
2. The motive is also pretty transparent, which seems to contradict the requirement of O/H and possibly to be a SD. (I'm talking specifically about calling your spouse's boss to discuss his or her terms of employment, not the boundary of no travel).

If my spouse did this, it would be a big LB.

RMJ, the most telling thing for me about the whole travel issue/conversation was that H was a bit testy the first day. By the end of the second day he was jovial again, affectionate, so I mentioned that he seemed in a much better mood, why was that? and he said that he felt much better having gotten it off his chest in having that convo w/his boss.

We don't have a united front, and that is huge, you are correct. He still, to this day, insists that travel *should not* be a problem, and told his boss as much...what he told me he told boss was that the two of them could believe all day long that it was not an issue but *I* am hurt by it, so he is not going to hurt me with it anymore. I did ask him, so you think it shouldn't be a problem...has it ever NOT been a problem? No, he admitted, it has always been a problem FOR ME. I asked him, it hasn't been a problem for you then? He said no. So I said, it's never bothered you to upset me then? He totally separates my feelings from his actions, even though I know he's been educated to the contrary.

No, I can't say he does many 'activities' with the kids...occasionally, but nothing on a regular basis...mostly it's him letting them help him with his projects. He'll assist with bedtime rituals and things like that. He just took two of them to help him get a load of wood in prep for a snowstorm heading our way. He'll be with them this afternoon while I'm at a babyshower. We all went to a friends' house last night for movies, pizza, and games.

I would think that you would be happy that he did have this talk with his boss and has agrees/decided on no more travel. That is why we stop LBs... because it hurts our spouse, not because of how the one committing LBs feels. Dr. Harley has stated that it's easier to change action than feelings.

I think that's porn example come to mind because I read a lot ofof threads on here where the wife is being hurt by the husbands porn viewing. The husband has to stop watching porn because he understands that it hurts the wic an therefore hurts the marriage. Ho he personally feels about the subject isn't really the point.

kt, what I was saying was that he hasn't bothered to stop before because he doesn't see our arguments about it as a problem for him. Me being hurt by his actions have not been, and still aren't, a problem for him. It's the lack of empathy and lack of ability to understand how other people are affected by your choices. If he can behave his way out of that, and really REALLY start considering me and the kids, for the long term, then that's wonderful. Like the porn example, the H has to CARE that he's hurting the wife and marriage, or he will not be motivated to stop the behavior.

If I am offended that he presented it to his boss as uniting in belief with the bossman and I'm just a naggy harpy who is tying his hands on the issue, then I'm offended, and I don't think that's an irrational feeling given the long history. Don't get me wrong, I'm very happy he finally got it out there, just a bit bugged that he said he did that a long time ago, and a bit apprehensive that this time is a lie, too. Boy who cried wolf and all that...you keep lying about the same thing over and over, and people end up not believing you when you're being truthful cause your credibility is shot.

So...I'll believe it when I see it in a couple of weeks.

My apologies. I misunderstood. I really do hope he goes through this time and sticks with what he said he'd do.

cwmi, do you think this is his way of sticking it to you? Like a power struggle? It amazes me how effective he is at flabbergasting you. I would love to see you detangle yourself from all that.

Kerala,

MB principles would say POJA, but CWMI has been put into a position of either being lied to by her DH or being told if she doesn't like the way things are that D is acceptable to her DH. So she isn't very trusting of her DH right now. If you read her response to Kilted, you can see that she still wonders if her DH is lying about speaking with his boss.

I figured that her DH will be more truthful if he knows there is going to be a certain level of verification and that she will know the truth sooner than later.

She's ready to call it quits and her DH doesn't seem overly concerned about it. CWMI's lovebank is busted.