This poster should follow Dr Harley's advice, htld, and not yours. You have made your views clear, but you are not a marriage expert with vast experience of helping couples with OCs.

Dr Harley gives advice for couples who want to rebuild their marriages. He is not concerned with the rights of OMs. His experience of working with a large number of couples has shown that the best way to rebuild the marriage in a FWW with OC situation is for there to be NC between OC and OM. If the BH wants to rebuild his marriage, then the most successful way for him to do this is for him to treat OC as his own, and forgo CS.

This BH has made it clear that this is what he wishes to do. He has told FWW that he wants exclusive fatherhood over the child. He does not want CS from OM because that would make him permanently resentful. He loves the child and feels he can be her father if OM is cut out completely.

As I understand it, most states in the USA give him up to two years from the birth to change his mind and challenge paternity, so he has about another 18 months to see whether his feelings change. He is not yet stuck with a child that has been forced on him, and in contrast to another of your statements, he does not want his wife to "free him". He has been very clear that he does not want her to go.

OM is not the father of this child; the law says that the H is. The bio-father and the bio-mother do not have the same rights to parenting.

Biological motherhood is established by the fact of the child growing in the woman's body. It is born with the umbilical cord attached. Motherhood can be witnessed. We have given women rights over their children because, for as long as our species has existed, and long before DNA tests existed, motherhood could be established as a material fact.

Biological fatherhood could not be witnessed or established in the same way. Societies have therefore come to an agreement that the father is the man who is married to the mother; on marrying her, he agrees that he will be the father to her children.

If a MM feels that he is NOT the father to his wife's children, then he has to make a case for why he isn't. DNA tests make this easy these days. However, society has not yet agreed that a man who is not the married woman's husband can force society to recognise him as the father. He cannot impose a DNA test on a married couple, where the husband has not rejected that child as his.

This OM has already lost a case to force a DNA test. He is now appealing. There is no reason that this couple should give him what he wants without a court ruling - especially when it is likely that the higher court will endorse the lower court's decision and reject OM's claim.

You argue that the litigation "needs to be settled" as soon as possible for the marriage to begin recovery, as if it is the married couple's interest that you are concerned with. What you seem to mean is that the couple should agree OM's claim and end the litigation themselves, without a judge's ruling. What you are proposing is that they give up on their very good chance of winning the case and give OM what you believe is rightfully his. You seem to be defending his interests and not theirs.

Litigation cannot go on forever, so there is no need for them to give up their fight. If OM loses this case then there will be a limit to how many times he can keep challenging the decision of courts. At some point, he will not be allowed to appeal any more, and this couple will be able to bring up their child with NC and no involvement with him, as Dr Harley recommends for an OC marriage to survive.

According to Dr Harley, the chances of divorce actually INCREASE if OM is given visitation, because in that way, he will be in their lives on a weekly basis. Using an IM for visits does not remove the fact that every week, this child will be taken from its family and made to spend time with the BH's enemy - OM. This BH has already told his wife that he cannot cope with visitation. He wants complete fatherhood.

Your suggestion that they should give in, IN ADVANCE of a court's ruling, and arrange visits will increase their chance of divorce. Your suggestion is great for OM's rights, but disastrous for the marriage.

The OM does not have "father's rights" in this case. If he wanted to be a father, then the mother of the child that he sees as his should not have been married to someone else. He is not the father in the eyes of the law, and until a court decides otherwise, he has no rights.

I hope the FWW follows Dr Harley's advice and not yours. You seem to be giving advice based on how you would feel if you were an OM. Most people here want to benefit from Dr Harley's advice for protecting and rebuilding marriages.

If this poster is forced to put the child through a DNA test, then CS and visitation will be out of her hands, but until and unless that happens, this couple should not give in to OM's demands and should forgo CS and visitation. There is no place on MB for the recognition of the rights of OMs.

Dr Harley also advises not to have affairs, and yet you persisted for quite a while in an affair. So cut your husband the same amount of slack you gave yourself when you allowed yourself to remain in your affair for months.

I would argue that one aspect of the affair is on-going since the OM is still pursuing a form of contact via the OC channel.

As long as that's on-going, it's going to have a very similar if not the same effect as if there were continued affair contact.

I don't know how to stop the triggers either, since the OM actions are likely a significant barrier to allowing the healing to begin.

I think your unrealistic expectation is that healing hasn't even begun and likely will not until OM is out of the picture, period.

I agree with the advice above, don't take any short-cuts in the legal fight. Work to ensure the OM is completely out of your lives. Then and only then does the affair time clock and and only then can healing for your BH even begin.

As long as this is on-going, he hasn't even begun to heal, and needs to given the benefit of the doubt as result of the circumstance.

With that said, be sure that you and the child are safe.

I also agree he needs to come here and talk to some folks who've gone through this before. He likely also needs a local mentor (male) who can shepherd him through this. Someone he can trust to keep this in strict confidence, but who will also give him good advice and hold him accountable for his actions.

Thank you, Sugarcane.

You are correct that no DNA test has been done yet. My BH doesn't care about bio; he wants OC for life, no matter what happens between us. But even after I gave him an "out" and offered to walk away and let him have everything, BH still wants to stay M. We really do love each other. (I know, I know...my A did not demonstrate that, but I messed up big-time and am trying to be a better W; that's why vows have "for better or worse." We're in the "worse" part, but my BH is willing to stick through it, God bless him.) He truly has forgiven me; I know that. His angry outbursts are not because of the PA; they are directed at the OM. Let me explain:

BH will see OC smile and coo and suddenly BH gets angry that OM will "take OC away." Then he punches a hole in the wall (we're running out of plaster!) and cusses and gets angry and rants about killing OM right then and there. I try to soothe him, he gets angry at me for letting this happen, then I cry and apologize and say I wish I could fix it. Eventually I have to go back to focusing on the baby while BH broods. This is the daily routine, while the baby is watching this and the dog is cowering under the table.

I want to survive this A. My BH wants to survive it. But his fear of our lives--our family dynamic--changing takes over and creates a monster within him.

And btw, if OM ends up getting anything, there will absolutely be NC ever--for life--between me and OM. Dr. Harley is 100% right about keeping OM away, and it works.

Then you know that you can't soothe him, and perhaps you are making things worse by reminding him you too are a party to the affair.

If he's mad at the OM, let him be mad at the OM. Seems the way you describe how this plays out, your "soothing" does the opposite.

I agree, he needs a better coping mechanism.

See if he will come here and ask for some suggestions from some BH's to see if he'll listen to what others have to offer. He's not in a state to listen to you and as you've described, at this point in time, it's unlikely you can soothe him or make things better for him, and perhaps you make things worse with your attempts.

I realize that's not your goal, but it is your current reality.

Well said, Enlightened. I need to let him vent and just keep supporting him through this. I never expected BH to forgive me for what I've done, and I owe him my life for that forgiveness. The least I can do is let him have his rage until the smoke clears.

Hello Dads,

The problem with the OM wanting to CONTINUE to interfere in their M is that he is an interloper that has no more right to the OC than a shoplifter has to demand a warranty on an item he has stolen form a store...

If the WW had not TOLD him that she was pregnant he would have ZERO chance of visitation to the OC because all children of the M are presumed to be the H's.

To say he should have ANY rights to the OC based simply on the fact that because she TOLD him she might be pregnant when he would NOT have if she had not is ridiculous.

He was not included in their contract of marriage and should not be entitled to be involved in their M in any way, shape or form.

The OM broke into the BH's LEGAL CONTRACT OF MARRIAGE and assisted the WW in becoming pregnant without his permission or consent VIOLATING THE LEGAL CONTRACT OF MARRIAGE the BH had with his W for exclusive rights of paternity in the M.

When two people have signed a contract and an interloper attempts to gain control of anything already contracted for by the contract whether present or in the future they have no rights.

One question for you...

If the OM had donated semen as a sperm donor and the WW had broken into the storage facility and STOLEN the semen and had impregnated herself without his permission or consent...

Would you think that the sperm donor should be forced to pay child support and be forced to be a father as it was an act without his permission or consent just as much as the WW getting pregnant without the BH's consent by the OM was?

The OM was a sperm donor...

that's all...

NOT a father.

God bless.

Jim

I think this is the best reason to cut OM out of OC and BH life. If he is the trigger for his AO, then get rid of him. There is no reason for OM to be part of your families life period. He is still causing strife in your marriage. Your life is not a sitcom where there are three parents.

Did you tell Dr. Harley that your husband was punching holes in walls? That is an AO on steroids. You have hurt your husband, no doubt, but be prepared to separate from him if this escalates.

My first husband hit walls, cursed, and threw things.... then one day he decided to pick me up and throw me into a wall. Dr. Harley doesn't advocate staying in abusive situations, wayward or not.

Amen to this. If he is doing this, then it is separation time, wanthealing. I fully sympathize with your husband, but like I said before, this trauma may be too great for him for overcome. And that is ok, I know I could not deal with the ongoing reminders of the OP myself.

And I wanted to post Dr Harley's opinion about contact in these situations. He is adamant that all contact end for life:

Thanks for finding this letter, Mel. I didn't have time to look it up after my time-consuming post above!

i would highlight another passage as well, that seems pertinent to this couple's situation:


The OM in this case is "demanding" contact, but this should not be granted simply because he "demands" it. He is going through the courts; let them decide. Given the law on the marriage and paternity, and ESPECIALLY given that OM has already lost a case in a lower court, the odds are strongly in favour of his demand being rejected by the court.

Dr Harley works to restore and protect marriages. The best interest of this child is for her to be brought up in a strong, loving marriage that is protected from interlopers. The BH is offering her that future.

OM might also say that he can offer this too, but the FWW knows that he is not husband material. He didn't respect her marriage when he had an affair with her - and neither did she - and he still does not respect it now. If he regretted his adultery he would leave them alone and wish the child well. He doesn't regret it, and he wants to continue to interfere in his victim's (the BH's) life. He is a terrible choice for marriage, and while FWW has recently struggled with feelings for him, she doesn't want to marry him. She wants to stay with her H and he with her. They can restore their marriage by cutting out OM altogether.

Does your Atty have any idea how long this case should go on? weeks? months?

I hope you can get rid of him.

I too hope you can get rid of the OM. And for the record....the "true father" is the father who loves and raises a child....otherwise I had no "true parents" growing up since I am adopted. Sorry, but that is one of my big pet peeves. DNA is NOT everything. Period.

Want, I am also a FWW. We had no OC, but my DH also was very angry and very hurt, which is to be expected. He never hit our dog or put holes in the wall, but he did have outbursts....which is something that never happened at any other time during our M. Definitely if you are in danger, you should take action. However, I do think that learning of a spouse's A awakes emotions in people that are very raw.

The things that helped us were time, humility on my part, establishing EP's - which will be hard with the OM and all the legal stuff. But I would not have one iota of contact with OM unless it cannot be legally avoided. And when it does all get resolved, I would get as far away from OM as possible.

As far as exposing, I may be speaking out of school here, and Mel can help with this, but I think that as the BS your DH should set the timetable on that. If he is dead against it right now, I wouldn't go nilly willy telling people anyway.

Read Surviving an Affair and his Needs Her Needs, and apply them religiously. Call the Harley's if need be. And learn to discern advice that is coming from the perspective of a trained and successful marriage saving psychologist from advice that is coming from a place of tunnel vision or bitterness. Cling to the former; throw out the latter.

Absolutely!! Her BH does not want this information out at this time. Dr Harley talked to wanthealing about this. Her BH is too distraught right now to add to the drama.

Wanthealing

Your H must feel like he is fighting a war with 2 fronts.

A legal battlefront with OM over the beloved child your H adores.
An emotional battlefront to restore the M after adultery.

Men are problem solvers.
I can only imagine H's frustration at being handed serious life altering problems he did not cause, and then feeling he HAS TO come up with the correct solution, all the while trying to achieve personal recovery from adultery.

BEFORE the next angry outburst, speak soothingly to H.
Assure him that the solutions will come in time.
You will be by his side to fight for the child.
Tell H you do not expect H to be an unemotional robot.
Tell him that because it is so frightening, the next attack of inanimate objects (plaster-blaster) will require that you temporarily leave the home with your child in order to avoid causing unintended fear and anxiety for yourself and the child.
All said calmly.
Not in the heat of the moment.
Not during a crisis.
An announcement.
Not a demand.
Not an expectation that he won't punch the wall, but letting him know your plans for when he does punch the wall.

And, when it (the plaster blasting) happens, you leave. No announcements.

The outbursts will cease if you are consistent doing that.

Take care.

By all of your arguments, the fathers of children should abandon their rights as fathers once a marriage ends because it is best for the children to be with whomever she shacks up with next than to go back and forth between homes.

My point is that the real victim in all of this is the child, who didn�t ask for any of this.

But your arguments are all the ones I heard when my WXW left me. She felt I should just let her have everything so that the kids could have a �stable� upbringing, yet none of this was considered when she was in the midst of her adultery.

Also, by your arguments, I could say that she�s merely an egg donor, and should relinquish her rights as a mother. In fact, by your arguments, she�s nothing more than an incubator and should surrender the child to the OM.

If OM wanted to nothing to do with the baby, then I agree 100% with Dr. H. In fact, what you posted about his thoughts on the matter I still agree 100% with him on everything he said.

By your arguments, I should just walk away, consider myself an egg donor, pay money out of my nose forever, and let my kids settle in and accept the new man in their lives as the interchangeable father.

Sorry, my attitude on fatherhood doesn�t reduce me or other men to the status of sperm donors.

The idea of settling the litigation is based on the OM getting any kind of merit to his DNA claim. If he is granted the right to some degree of recognition as a father, then fighting a long legal battle will not do anyone any favors. Settling would end that conflict and allow the healing to begin. So my advice to settle is contingent on OM getting granted recognition by the court. Dragging out a legal fight will likely not lead to the outcome she desires, since the courts are becoming increasingly friendly to fathers.

I agree with Dr. Harley 100% on what he said. He acknowledged that OM sometimes get visitation rights. So if this OM is fighting for custody, then it is to everyone�s benefit to settle if he�s granted the right to contest.

Spare me the bashing of the OM. He and the WW are equally at fault and should equally deal with the consequences.

BH is out of line in his behavior and is certainly posing a threat. It�s also idiotic to destroy property when he, not the OM, will be the one to have to pay for repairs. I empathize with how he feels, but not with his actions.

The one thing that troubles me is that the question of whether or not this really is the OM�s child has never been addressed. Have you performed a DNA test on the child? The whole thing is rendered moot if the child is not OM�s.

Finally, everyone, don�t get me wrong. I�m by no means either defending the adultery or the OM�s actions with the WW. I do defend his rights as a father. Despite what some of you think, I as a man, will not allow myself or other fathers to be reduced to being �sperm donors� who simply exist in this world to let women have children.

If a man wants to be a part of his child�s life, and there is no reason to deny him that (abuse, drugs, etc), then I believe he has that right as much as a woman does, regardless of her marital status.

These are the consequences of adultery.

By this argument, then I'm not a father since the court didn't grant me primary custody and I only get my kids 40% of the time. My WXW left me and shacked up with someone else she met after our D. Since he treats my kids well and sees them more than I do, does that make him the father?

Sorry, you're dead wrong on that.

I will support any father's right to be a father and find the very notion that men should be the ones to surrender their parental rights as downright sexist.

Wanthealing...

This is MARRIAGE BUILDERS.

If you want your thread to be a discussion about MB methods to help your M and NOT become a discussion about "father's rights", you may ask posters to cease and desist and to take their "side bar father's rights" discussion to another thread.

It is UP TO YOU to ask them to stop, if it bothers you.
If they fail to stop after YOU request they stop, hit the "notify" button and report your problem to the mods.

If it does not bother you that your thread is hi-jacked , then there is no problem.

WELCOME TO MARRIAGE BUILDERS

Seriously, I think you should move away from the XOM and disappear. I can't imagine how your poor DH feels having to not only see a child you produced in the A, but see the XOM all the time also. I swear that is just too much form a person to take. I know this a MB site but where is the justice and honor in your DH having to look into the eyes of the XOM via the baby every day. The XOW in our case tried to get pg and thank God she didn't because there is no way that I could have stayed M to my FWH if he had an OC during our M. That would be a harsh reminder of the tragedy that he caused in our M.

If you aren't willing to move away and forget about the XOM, I don't hink you deserve to be M to your DH.

Your comment above gives me GREAT hope that you have what it takes to make your marriage something really great!

Yes, this is indeed Marriage Builders. But ignoring the consequences of adultery is not doing anyone any favors nor is ignoring the reality that the OM might be the father of this child and has rights if he wishes to pursue them.

Whitewashing the reality not addressing the issues at stake does nothing for anyone.

All of this is the result of adultery and its consequences. Again, please tell me why no one advocates that she relinquish her rights as a mother and give OC to OM?

After all, that would free the BH from having to raise the OC and would allow the WW to go to permanent NC with OM, therefore saving her marriage.

I don�t suggest that because I find it as ridiculous as the argument that the other man should give up his rights as a father.

It�s downright sexist.

There are no easy solutions to this problem at all unless you go to the extreme of advocating that one of the two parents give up their rights as a parent.

That�s simply not the reality and it is the child that pays the price. Please spare me the sexist inputs that men should step aside and give up their rights because a woman decided to go outside of her marriage.