I saw my counselor yesterday and she was basically telling me to wake up and smell the coffee. My H may send mixed signals, but really all his actions have been away from the marriage. He had an affair, walked out on me when I was pregnant, and has put most of his energy since then into proving how its all my fault. Basically she was saying he is a jerk and I need to face it.<P>I feel so strongly that she is wrong. He is really a very good person. He is a wonderful person who is just very mixed up right now. She doesn't know him.<P>Then I listen to myself and think "Is this denial or what?" How many women in awful marriages have said to friends, family, therapists "but he's really a wonderful person inside, you don't know him like I do." <P>What do you all think? Do I just have a very strong case of denial? Or am I holding on because I know that he really is worth holding on to?

Annie,<P>I feel exactly the same way. I have NEVER seen my Wife act this way towards ANYONE, which is one reason I don't understand it all.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A>

Animac,<BR>He is just thoroughly confused. My W is thoroughly confused because she can see the truth. What she is looking for she already has. It is something about envy that causes ALL of us humans to think we should act on those bad thoughts. It isn't until reality truly sets in that we realize that it was all a fantasy and that hard work is what is needed which is what was put forth in the beginning of the relationship.<P>True love is unconditional and will look for the good as well as look to do what is in the other persons best interest without looking for anything in return. The reward is knowing that you did what was in their best interest, just like Jesus dying on the cross for our sins.<P>God be with you.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

AARGHH!<P>Ani - I hate this question. Mostly because I don't think I really have the courage to face it myself yet. I think the answer is that both you and your therapist are right. Your H is a jerk AND a wonderful person. You would never have married the jerk he is exhibiting now, but at some earlier point he exhibited all the wonderful qualities that made you fall in love with him and choose to start a family with him. I truly believe that those qualities are not gone - and the mixed signals are evidence of that. <P>Are you in denial? Of course, we all are to some extent. It is the only way we can keep trying. We do not deny that our spouse is acting terribly at present, but that he/she will continue to act this way in the future. Is this denial or true uncertainty? I think the real question is whether you react in a way that harms you or your family. As long as you do not fashion your every decision and plan around this uncertain, indecisive, shapeless blob that your H has become (for the time being) you can manage the uncertainty by keeping yourself first!<P>JMHO - and much easier said than done I know. Ani - can you decide how much and how long you will hold on? Seems to me with the D in process you have a timeline already. Do you wish to give him every opportunity to return, every encouragement - right up until the papers are signed? Does this feel ok to you? An extended Plan A? Or do you wish to put that energy into yourself and kids at this time? I honestly think that either approach has to be chosen for how it feels to you - because the effect on our H's at this point - this late in the game - is minimal to nil. They have to come to terms with their choices on their own.<P>I personally think that until (if ever) your H shows remorse and real commitment to change himself - you focus on you. You are terrific Ani - with or without him. Don't forget that!<P>Starpony

Annie,<BR>Basically, both you and your councelor have valid points.<P>Your post the other day on how your relationship was before kids, really touched me. My H and I also share a passion for our kids, and I think part of the distance before the affair was because we put the family unit first instead of our individual relationship. However, unlike your marriage, our marriage, after the honeymoon period, was not that great. It was not bad, but it was a struggle. If we had not been committed to marriage itself, I think we may have divorced, hard to tell. But when we accidently had our first daughter when married three years, it bonded us as a family, and our relationship actually improved a great deal. <P>Maybe the parenting roles you brought with you from childhood differed and affected your primary relationship? <P>Anyway, clearly you had something special and somehow you misplaced it. So seeing your H as a good, but confused person, seems reasonable.<P>It is hard to know if he is a salvagable person. I think society worked against you, your H's support system worked against you and clearly his therapist worked against you. <P>He has certainly acted like a jerk, but if he was a complete jerk, I think he would not have waffled as much as he has.<P>No advise, sorry, I can just see how both points of view have validity and how, sadly, our society's quest for individual "happiness" has really muddied the waters.<P><BR><P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Virtually every person outside the situation judges it the way your therapist did. I personally have no support whatsoever to continue working on things. Everyone thinks my husband is a selfish, irresponsible, jerk and that I should divorce him (even his parents). They also all think I'm in denial.<P>I don't know whether you are or not, but I know that I'm frustrated because my husband has chosen not to make ANY effort towards working on the marriage. Like your husband, he is conflicted, disoriented, and has terrible judgment. He also is literally incapable of making a decision about the future, or even talking about it. I do NOT consider that normal behavior or representative of our 17 years together.<P>This question is the most central one as to why we go on. What do we believe? Is the behavior we're witnessing temporary or permanent? Even if it is temporary, is it bad enough that it can never be truly forgiven? And even if he comes around to actually trying, how much longer will that take? And if he tries, will it succeed? These are all the tough questions.<P>For me, I believe that the man I know is the one I saw for 15 of the 17 years, not the last two. The last two are midlife crisis/depression/affair induced. I do not see this man as happy with his life. I also think that I had a part in his initial unhappiness and subsequent decision to escape, so I believe I can fully forgive him if he ever makes a true effort to recover. I also believe that the issues in the marriage are COMPLETELY addressable if we were both committed to working them.<P>The only issue is how much longer this will take, and whether I should continue to hold on. I don't see my situation anywhere near ending. My husband is as confused today as the day he left, nearly 14 months ago. He still has yet to see a counselor, take an anti-depressant, talk in-depth to anyone, see an attorney, or end his affair.<P>To the direct question, yes, your husband is acting like a jerk. In the work world, where performance is measured on short term results and not relationship driven, we would put him on corrective action, then fire him. But in a marriage, past performance counts for alot (at least to me). I promised for better or worse. This is the worse. Way worse.<BR>

Only you know your H. I am convinced that the alien my H is now is not the person I married, who used to put the family before everything. So either:<P>1) He is suffering from mental illness - specifically depression or<P>2) He was abducted by aliens and is being held somewhere in the alpha quadrant or<P>3) Peoples' personalities can completely change virtually overnight, which I don't believe.<P>I married him in sickness and in health, and I believe that this is definitely in sickness.<P><BR>

Hi All -<P>I am dealing with the same thing - only divorce is a virtual certainty....<P>My question takes this further...how do you handle things when you are divorced... does it mean that your current feelings...have to change when the judge strikes the gavel? <P>If you don't cut off those feelings and beliefs.....are you a sucker? Or are they a part of what real love is?<P>I am struggling so much with this!!<P>Any thoughts?<P>Hugs,<P>Sheba<P>

Hi everyone! Sorry I couldn't respond from work today.<P>Sounds like everyone is as confused as I am. I told my H what the therapist said and my reaction to it. He agrees with me that he's a good person. What he said was "for a good person to do such a terrible thing I must have had a very good reason." <P>Unfortunately, I think that's part of the problem. He just can't accept that he did something so awful to his family. So he is trapped in finding 'reasons' for it instead of solutions to it. <P>I think society does work against marriage. No one will hold it against us if we get a divorce. But if we get back together, we have a long road ahead in terms of family and friends. <P>I know I need to work on me. Friends at work are trying to 'set me up' on a date. I don't think I'm ready. But I know I would probably fall very hard right now for anyone who showed me a little tenderness. I talked to my H about it and he doesn't want me to date -- although he agrees that I have every right to since he's filed for divorce. He's so mixed up. So what do I do? It feels right to respect his wishes and my marriage vows and not date. But the idea that I might see someone else is about the only thing that has gotten a reaction out of my husband. Do I keep letting him call the shots until the divorce is final? <P>Sheba brings up a good point -- are the feelings just supposed to switch off when the gavel strikes? <P>We had a great conversation on the phone last night. Started just chatting about work and such. Then talked about our situation some, but without too much intensity. I told him about fantasizing about him. I wasn't going to tell him the details because I was too embarrassed -- even though we used to have risque phone conversations all the time when he was travelling. But he asked to hear them. He teased me when we were getting off the phone -- he told me to have "pleasant dreams" -- I asked if he WANTED me to fantasize about him. He said yes. He confuses me so much!!! <P>He talked about feeling like he was trapped in always trying to get my approval, so he could never do anything. Even though he recognizes that this was mostly in his head, he still feels like he needs to get away from me in order to be himself. <P>Here's an interesting observation -- this afternoon I went digging in a box of old photographs. I wanted to find photos of my husband being happy. I wanted reassurance that there was a time in our lives that he was happy. I did find such pictures, as I expected. The real shocker was the photos I found of myself. I don't remember ever being that happy, relaxed, silly, and fun. Was that really me? What happened? I'm going to have to think about this some more.<P>Thanks for everyone's thoughts and good wishes. I wish there were a simple answer to all of this!

Ani - Don't date. Don't do it to get a rise out of your H. Please read Against the Wind's "Warning" post. You will fall hard and you will hate yourself. Wait until you are emotionally ready to move on. Do you really think you are there yet?<P>Sheba - I am struggling with this too. No the feelings don't just shut down when the gavel strikes, but you can choose how you want to express them (we tell this to the betraying spouse all the time right when they are in withdrawal from OP? "It is OK to have feelings, but you do not have to act on them".) After the D, you choose how you want to grieve and go on and the feelings do eventually become less overwhelming.<P>Take care and big hugs,<BR>Starpony