My wife has quarter horses for pleasure. She visits them at her sister's farm during intermittent weekends. It probably averages to be slightly more than 50% of all Sundays. It's her hobby, they trail ride, and she feels she needs to get away.

Funny how the woman that wanted to have 6 kids and was angry I wouldn't give her 6 now needs ample time to get away from them and the home. I found this site when she was pressuring me to have more kids and I was opposed to the idea.

I guess I have no right to come her and complain. I've long given up on many of the concepts of this site. I wasn't willing to take this to the next level which would have probably been some form of Plan B. Instead I've done the martyr thing with the caveat that I get to complain about my situation. Maybe that's my Plan B. I certainly have distanced myself from her. I rarely approach her for hugs ... she's been trying to approach me more with them. It's what I asked her to do years ago. Too little too late ... I don't know. Sometimes I don't even know what right.

It's the age old question: Do I feel justified in going to extreme measures in trying to change our lives just because I'm unhappy with the frequency?

Bubbles will call me a coward. Maybe I am. Then again maybe I fear splitting up the family. If I push too much ....

Mr. Alias,

All I have to say to you is " BUT THEN... .

I think it is time you retired this saying OK?

The MB coaching is a lot cheaper than a divorce.

Getting some anti-anxiety pills is a lot cheaper than a divorce and watching you kids as they see their family torn apart.

I don't know much about your W, but I do know she is not a mindreader and neither are you. TALK to the woman. Tell what you need and when you need it, don't make her guess and don't be mealymouthed about it.

You don't love her because you don't act loving toward her. Love is NOT A FEELING, it is an action. Take an active role, and that probably means seeing a professional that understands this sort of thing, and that would be the Harleys.

Mr.Alias, you are not close to done, but your job, your attitude, your failure to read her mind, her failure to read yours is getting in the way. Address the affects the job has had on you, your body, your mind. Start there.

Hang in there man.

JL

She asks if there's anything she can do to help me ... she knows I'm not happy.

You tell her yes, she can give you a HJ every other day. And have regular lovemaking sessions with you once weekly. I would be specific on this.

And I no longer am concerned that she's needed to go out and find work because I'm tired of not being able to have the things I want out of life.

What is wrong with a woman working? NOTHING!

And about the sex, my H wants less sex than I do. But he knows this fact about himself and is willing to meet my needs. So we vary the way we handle the sex problem, we have POJA'D that one. Either we have sex once weekly "no matter what" or I ask him to pleasure me whenever I want, every day if I want it...and he does not refuse.

What does a person do when they literally believe they've just had enough and if the marriage is going to be saved its up to her to save it?

If you have not POJA'd the sex issues and other issues, then you have not done enough to save the marriage..yet. If you are afraid to confront her due to her "silent treatment" or "yelling" or making you afraid she will be angry or leave you, then you are too chicken to bravely save your marriage.

You have relaxed your boundaries so far back that now you will have to be brave to reclaim all that lost ground and assert yourself so that she begins to have a smidgen of respect for you.

Alias,

Have you asked your wife for the once weekly scheduled sex? Have you demonstrated that you are different than her and you want more sex than she does but THAT IS OK because she can fulfil that need for you in other ways like helping you out every other day with touching, kissing and her hands. Then, together with the once weekly scheduled sex, you will become pretty happy and content and other things she does will not bother you as much.

Please I've been around that mulberry bush far too many times. I've given up doing that over and over again!!!! It's easier to give up then to continual be denied after asking over and over and over and over again. She knows what I need and I've laid it out there what my expectations are. Those expectations have been communicated to her knowingly as an acceptable compromise. Once a week when she can. 3 times a month. It takes all of about 2, 2.5 hours a month to keep me happy. She knows this. It's no secret.

I also informed her last fall that all my attempts to woe her and be the husband I need to be have made nearly no impact on the frequency. If there's an excuse to not have sex she's used it. I've done what I can to eliminate those excuses but when she says no its no. I told her back then it was up to her, that I wasn't asking for it anymore. That it is too frustrating, too painful to do it for so many years. She's initiated 3 or 4 times since August. I've asked about the same even though I said I was done doing that.

Since this work project has kicked in its only made matters worse because I'm there much less and the UA time has decreased. Understandably. I don't care. I've done my time. I've done the work. I told her exactly that last fall. It seems to have fallen on deaf albeit concerned ears. Nothing has changed in the area most concerning and disheartening to me.

Anyways I told her yesterday morning that I'm sorry but I've given up ... given up being the husband that I need to be to make her happy only to be denied what I need to be happy.

She apologized and asked if we could start fresh. I told her I would try to muster the strength to try yet again one more time but the frequency has to change immediately or I'd lose hope real fast. I actually started prior to talking to her yesterday. Started doing the things I was doing before.

JL, of course I haven't been acting loving towards her because loving her hurts too much. It has netted me plenty of negative results. I suspect she's saying the same thing right now.

Bubbles it isn't that my wife is cruel. At least not in the respect that she gives me the silent treatment or yells. She's been good about being level headed about all of this. I know your opinion of her and somethings you are close in your assessment but there are somethings about her that you may not know.

I don't want a hand job and I can assure you that isn't something she's interested in doing. Yes I've asked for exactly what I've wanted and she informs me she's trying.

There are always excuses and reasons why it doesn't happen. Most of those reasons are things I have no control over. If she says she's tired she's tired.

My wife respects me and thanks me continually for the hard work I do to maintain a roof over our heads. There is nothing wrong with her working and I'd prefer to live a life where she did work so we could afford to do more of the things we all enjoy. She's interested in staying home and doing volunteer work. However she's now doing a part-time bookkeeping job and she's really getting into it so I suspect she may be changing her stance on that.

I told her I'm tired of being broke and I wish I made more money but I've just about hit my cap on what I can make. I'm in IT and I'm on the cusp of a 6 figure salary.

I think it's great you've been able to POJA with your H. I've tried all that I think I can do to change the dynamic of our sex lives. The negotiating/brain storming ends up with her staying she'll try harder. Little to no avail so far.

"I don't want a hand job and I can assure you that isn't something she's interested in doing."

Let me say this carefully. With a woman who does not like sex, like your wife, and you cannot add this to your sexual arsenal for variety, then this is 70% of your problems.

1. This shows that you are too inflexible and static in your views of sex
2. She is not flexible in learning new things about sex
3. If you limit your sex to intercourse only, you have to be careful with birth control and it is a real hassle then when she does not feel like this kind of sex.
4. I am assuming that oral sex is completely out of the question also.


If neither one of you is interested in any kind of sexual variety, and limit things to missionary, then you are so extremely limited. No wonder you are having problems.

Let me ask some other questions:

Since very few woman orgasm by intercourse alone, does she orgasm?
Does she orgasm each and every time?
Will she let you perform oral on her?
Will she allow manual stimulation for herself?

If she is not orgasming and will not allow oral or manual to help her have sexual pleasure you got real insolvable problems here buddy. No wonder she does not want much sex if she is just an unfeeling receptacle. No wonder she submitted to sex only for procreative needs and nothing more. This explains a lot.

Bubbles raises a valid point. There a certainly a portion - we can argue how large or small - of women who are not willing to permit themselves to enjoy sex. Whether because they have been taught that sex is evil and wrong and they feel bad about themselves if they enjoy it. Or they fear that if they permit themselves to enjoy it they will not be able to resist and they will lose control of themselves. Or for whatever reason.

I have perceived the statement "women will desire sex frequently when (i) they are in love with their partner and (ii) they can rely on enjoying the experience" to imply that it is always the man's fault if the woman is not enjoying the experience. That may often be the case. Certainly there are plenty of selfish or ignorant or unskilled males. But it is not always the case.

If I were you Mr Alias, I would do 300 hours of research on this subject both to enlighten yourself and to find solutions. If you are not willing to put in this time (like I did to solve our "infrequent sex" issues) then you do not want a good marriage enough. Sure you want a good fulfilling marriage, I believe this. But you simply do not want to do what it takes to get there.

Sorry,

Let me clarify. I am not interested in getting just a HJ and we've talked about it she'd rather not just give me a HJ.

My wife and I do have foreplay before sexual intercourse. This typically means we use our hands to stimulate each other all over. This includes HJs.
I typically try to have her orgasm first and sometimes we try to time it so we do at the same time.
She doesn't always want to have an orgasm and so that means we jump to intercourse until I'm done.
There's been times in the past where I've initiated oral on her but she's never given me oral. She generally doesn't like the concept of oral but hasn't always stopped me when I've started. She prefers it if I don't kiss her after I've given her oral. (mild case of OCB which stems from her stupid brother sexually assaulting her when she's was young).

The sex is usually pretty darn good. Normally she's on top ... I last longer that way ... but we switch once in awhile.

I am happy that your wife can enjoy sex. In this case, it will not be as hard as I thought to increase the sexual frequency. You will still have to deal with her basic personality, which to me, seems selfish and stubborn.

Perhaps she will care enough for you that she will realize that you need once weekly sex and come thru for you instead of refusing.

Another thing we have done is if my H refuses sex for the once weekly sex sessions, due to one or more reasons, then we have made a backup plan to have sex immediately the very next day.

For example, it is Saturday night. My husband is really tired and I really dont care for sex either that night. So we agree to postpone it until Sunday. Then on Sunday we do have the sex we missed for that Saturday.

After you and the wife have agreed on once weekly sex, she does not and should not change the rules by cancelling all the time for months at a time. You need to get this "rule" corrected and immediatly try for the "very next day"> Otherwise the once weekly thing will not be effective.

MrAlias, I would implore you to focus on using this program instead of getting distracted with conflict resolution. This is not a conflict resolution program even though you wouldn't know that from some of the posts here.

Your highest priority should be to restore the love in your marriage, not get distracted with sexual frequency. Fix the love in the marriage and the sex problem will fix itself. This is not a conflict resolution program.


How to Create Your Own Plan to Resolve Conflicts and Restore Love to Your Marriage

Hi MA!!!

Nice to "see" you, I've wondered about you. I'm sorry that things are in such a bad place.

Having your top EN neglected for so long would certainly explain why you feel in withdrawel. And I know you've tried very hard to meet your wife's EN's consistently and over time in the past.

Unfortunately, I think you've never been able to successfully POJA this issue--and it has led to the steady decline of your feelings, to the point where now you don't want to spend time with her (and vice versa).

ML wrote this:


And yet, resolving conflict so that both people are happy (POJA) is foundational to the success of this program, and to how people ultimately feel loved. In fact, I would argue that learning how to resolve conflicts in a way that makes both people happy is the purpose of this website. The success of Dr. H's program depends on spending time together (UA PLUS resolving conflict well (POJA).

But please don't take my word for it--take Dr. Harley's!!!

From the article you linked:


The difference is that Harley doesn't JUST focus on resolving conflicts, as if that is a panacea... but that doing so is supposed to be part of the process of restoring love. Which is why conflicts are dealt with by POJA.

There should be nothing wrong with helping people to "resolve conflicts" as long as it is done in such a way to restore love, and as long as it's part of a plan where other things are also being done.

In case this didn't come through, MA--I am so very sad for you that things continue to be hard. I really am.

My H and I are oftentimes doing MUCH BETTER, but there are still times when it is very hard for me that he is not very physical (sexually or even affectionately).

He is more attracted to me now that I look about what I did when we got married, and undoubtedly will be even MORE when I am the size I was before I met him... but I believe (and so does he) that he will never have the kind of interest in sex that I do.

He has low drive. Feeling more or less in love with me does not change that fact. He doesn't even feel motivated to have sex with me just to please me when he is really happy with me. Despite medicine to keep his testosterone levels high, he just doesn't have very much interest... He feels it is too much work, and he is too tired afterwards. When he does feel interested, it seems to have very very little to do with me.

I've been reading a lot about Low Drive/High drive spouses. So has he. It's helped some.

The reality is that some of us simply have to learn how to live in situations where one spouse (no matter how happy they are) are not interested in very much sex, or that of a great quality.

But by all means, before you arrive at the conclusion that this is the case in your situation, you should talk to Dr. H. He may be able to help you.

((((MyAlias!))))

Telly, I agree we should take Dr Harley's word for it!! But you don't understand Marriage Builders if you believe that "POJA is the foundation of the program and how people feel loved." I assure you it is not. All the POJA in the world will not create romantic love. Conflict resolution does NOT create romantic love. Let's see what he says:


See? The main purpose of Marriage Builders is to FALL IN LOVE, not resolve conflicts. You can be the best conflict resolver in the world, but it won't make you fall in love. It won't make you happy. It will just mean you are good at resolving conflict. And still end up divorced because you are not in love.

And again:
So see, its not about resolving conflict, it's about falling in love - one of the most hidden secrets on this forum! Focusing on conflicts is a distraction from creating romantic love in one's marriage. As you can see, MrAlias is not in love.

And what is shocking is that he has been coming here for EIGHT YEARS and does not even have the slightest idea that this is the goal of MB. [I guess they didn't cover that in the most widely recommended book on this forum, Dances with Anger]

What I see on this forum, Telly, are many posters who have been coming here for YEARS making endless posts about specific conflicts without ever focusing on the goal of Marriage Builders, which is to create romantic love. They think this is the conflict resolution forum. We can see the result with MRAlias and many others.

So no, the solution is not to come here and make more longwinded posts about a specific conflict, but to use this program properly so he and his wife can fall in love.

Telly, Dr Harley addresses this again in one of his newsletters. When the goal is conflict resolution, it distracts from the goal of creating romantic love.


And this is exactly what historically has happened on this forum: veteran posters fail to address the romantic love when they try help new posters so their approach to conflict resolution fails to build love. Here again, he makes it clear that the main focus should be on falling in love, not on conflict resoltion. So when a poster like MrAlias is not in love, the focus should be on creating romantic love, not getting lost in conflict resolution. That is a distraction from this program.



This is a very clear theme in all of his writings that seems to have been historically overlooked by most of the folks on this forum. The result is many posters who have been coming here for YEARS and their problems today are the same as their problems when they arrived. That is a tragedy.

Mrs. A doesn't appear to want to fall in love. She appears content to do just enough to keep Mr. A from leaving.

How would we know this if no one has ever asked her?

Mr. A needs to decide what he wants. If he wants a happy marriage, then ML is correct. He should apply the MB system to attempt to rebuild the romantic love in his marriage. This means he should Plan A for a limited period of time. To show his wife he can meet her needs and avoid love busters. Then, if she does not respond positively, he should Plan B. To show that he is not willing to remain in an unhappy marriage where his needs are not being met.

On the other hand, he may want to remain married more than he wants that marriage to be happy. In that case, after he does Plan A for a limited period of time, he will have trouble continuing to follow MB. Because MB would counsel him to do Plan B. And even Dr. Harley admits that Plan B usually leads to divorce.

Dr. Harley suggests Plan B because his experience shows that 80% of unhappy marriages end in divorce eventually. So doing Plan B rarely changes the outcome. It just hastens reaching the same result.

Some of us do not want to hasten the result. Some of us want to remain married more than we want to be happy. Dr. Harley might well question why someone would want to remain UNhappily married. But there are those of us who do.

Mr. A needs to decide what he wants more.