"First I fix the relationship, and nine times out of ten, sexual problems disappear, with or without unresolved childhood experiences. I spend very little time fixing sexual problems these days because most couples I counsel don't have sexual problems after they have learned to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement. " here

Hi Melody, nice to hear from you again.

I'm one of those unfortunates who has been unsuccessful getting my spouse on board or interested in attending a MB weekend.

We did go to individual and couples counseling about 5 years ago. Things improved some from a relationship standpoint and many of those things we improved still exist today.

She goes on with life like nothing's wrong. So even if I ask her to take the reigns she's not motivated enough to do so.

My hours worked are certainly problematic to my ability to follow the guidelines. It hurts that she has a hobby (horses) that take her away for me and the family as well. We do spend time together but most of that time is attending our kid's sporting activities ... which right now takes up a LOT of time.

Thanks for the advice Melody.

The counselor we saw was very helpful and she definitely was a proponent of the MB concepts and the 5 love languages.

As far as "being in love isn't hard work" ... I guess I would disagree. It is very hard to continually put yourself out there only to be hurt.

Good to see you Bubbles. It's been a long time.
There isn't a whole lot of POJA in my marriage. She's not on board with the principles of this site. However she is willing to discuss and work on the marriage.

I just don't think I'm in love with her enough to even care if it's saved. I'm just way too frustrated with where I've ended up.

Coming here has helped some but still hasn't gotten me over the hump.

Hi MrAlias,
Have you read Harley's thee part articles on when to call it quits? Have you tried Plan B? Your wife has been neglectful over a long period of time and it make take a more extreme measure on your part to get her to take action. I sense you really don't have it in your heart to try. Indifference is a bad place to be in any marriage. When To Call It Quits
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8111_quit.html

Gg

I'm an avid horsewoman - many, many, many (Dare I say most?) horsewomen put their horse's first over their husbands. I don't know if this might be your issue. I was devoutly single when I rode professionally, got injured very badly, started dating my husband, and found I didn't have the singlemindness necessary to make it as a pro after I was married.

There's a reason why most successful, competitive horsewomen are single or divorced. It's the culture of our industry.

FWIW, I have two older horses and ride for pleasure now - I sometimes teach and sometimes feel an itch for a competition horse, but it's not worth the sacrifices to my marriage.

MrAlias, for example, did you know this program does not work unless you spend 25-30 hours of undivided attention meeting the top 4 intimate emotional needs?

So all the counseling in the world would not overcome that lack.

Dr Harley refuses to even counsel a couple that won't commit to at least 15 hours of UA a week because he says "my program won't work without it."

Mr. Alias,

I don't know much about your W, but I do know she is not a mindreader and neither are you. TALK to the woman. Tell what you need and when you need it, don't make her guess and don't be mealymouthed about it.

"I don't want a hand job and I can assure you that isn't something she's interested in doing."

Let me say this carefully. With a woman who does not like sex, like your wife, and you cannot add this to your sexual arsenal for variety, then this is 70% of your problems.

1. This shows that you are too inflexible and static in your views of sex
2. She is not flexible in learning new things about sex
3. If you limit your sex to intercourse only, you have to be careful with birth control and it is a real hassle then when she does not feel like this kind of sex.
4. I am assuming that oral sex is completely out of the question also.


If neither one of you is interested in any kind of sexual variety, and limit things to missionary, then you are so extremely limited. No wonder you are having problems.

Let me ask some other questions:

Since very few woman orgasm by intercourse alone, does she orgasm?
Does she orgasm each and every time?
Will she let you perform oral on her?
Will she allow manual stimulation for herself?

If she is not orgasming and will not allow oral or manual to help her have sexual pleasure you got real insolvable problems here buddy. No wonder she does not want much sex if she is just an unfeeling receptacle. No wonder she submitted to sex only for procreative needs and nothing more. This explains a lot.

Restoring Love versus Resolving Conflicts

Before I discuss with you some of the details of a well-conceived plan to resolve conflicts and restore your love for each other, I will focus attention on the highest priority of such a plan -- restoring love.

I know of no marriage, including my own, that is free of conflict. That's because every couple is made up of two distinctly different people, with different experiences, interests and emotional predispositions. Regardless of the compatibility a couple creates in marriage, a husband and wife will always have somewhat different perspectives, and those differences will create conflict. Conflicts over money, careers, in-laws, sex, child rearing, and a host of other common marital issues are part of the experience of being married.

Some couples feel that if they could only rid themselves of certain conflicts, they would be happy together. But I've discovered that marriages can be terrific in spite of conflicts, even when some of them are never fully resolved. The difference between couples who live in marital bliss and those who regret ever having met each other is not found in whether or not they are free of conflict -- it's found in whether or not they are in love with each other.

MrAlias, I would implore you to focus on using this program instead of getting distracted with conflict resolution. This is not a conflict resolution program even though you wouldn't know that from some of the posts here.

Your highest priority should be to restore the love in your marriage, not get distracted with sexual frequency. Fix the love in the marriage and the sex problem will fix itself. This is not a conflict resolution program.

The purpose of the Marriage Buildersﾮ web site is to help you to create and implement a plan to resolve your conflicts in a way that will restore and sustain your love for each other.

I also offer a Forum where you can discuss your situation with others who are [b]creating plans that resolve conflicts and restore love to their marriages.

I found myself rejecting many popular approaches to conflict resolution because they tend to sacrifice a couple's love for each other. The way I now encourage couples to resolve their conflicts is to only use procedures that will also build their love.

And yet, resolving conflict so that both people are happy (POJA) is foundational to the success of this program, and to how people ultimately feel loved. In fact, I would argue that learning how to resolve conflicts in a way that makes both people happy is the purpose of this website. The success of Dr. H's program depends on spending time together (UA PLUS resolving conflict well (POJA).

But please don't take my word for it--take Dr. Harley's!!!

Before I discuss with you some of the details of a well-conceived plan to resolve conflicts and restore your love for each other, I will focus attention on the highest priority of such a plan -- restoring love.

The difference between my approach to saving marriages, and the approach of most other therapists, is that I focus on building romantic love (being "in love") between spouses, rather than simply focusing on conflict resolution. As it turns out, I also address conflict resolution, but I do it in a way that builds love between spouses.

Since most marital therapists fail to address the romantic love issue when they try to help couples, their approach to conflict resolution usually fails to build love, and as a result, the couples divorce, even after "resolving" some of their conflicts. here

Some couples feel that if they could only rid themselves of certain conflicts, they would be happy together. But I've discovered that marriages can be terrific in spite of conflicts, even when some of them are never fully resolved. The difference between couples who live in marital bliss and those who regret ever having met each other is not found in whether or not they are free of conflict -- it's found in whether or not they are in love with each other. here

So no, the solution is not to come here and make more longwinded posts about a specific conflict, but to use this program properly so he and his wife can fall in love.

Mrs. A doesn't appear to want to fall in love. She appears content to do just enough to keep Mr. A from leaving.

Some of us do not want to hasten the result. Some of us want to remain married more than we want to be happy. Dr. Harley might well question why someone would want to remain UNhappily married. But there are those of us who do.

Mr. A needs to decide what he wants more.

Mr. A needs to decide what he wants. If he wants a happy marriage, then ML is correct. He should apply the MB system to attempt to rebuild the romantic love in his marriage. This means he should Plan A for a limited period of time. To show his wife he can meet her needs and avoid love busters. Then, if she does not respond positively, he should Plan B.

I think we all agree on a lot more than what we disagree on. I 100% agree with the goal of restoring the love in the marriage, and I think it's easier, possible again, and more fun when folks stop the obvious LBs.

[
Hey Melody, this is very negative and unwelcoming. Things are not black or white in life, there are many varient shades of grey. Why should Mr Alias NOT come here to try and get help? He clearly wants to help his marriage, why are you being so militant and unwelcoming here? Aren't "AVERAGE PEOPLE" welcome on this MB board anymore?

Melody, thanks for this, we agree that Harley's ideas are good ones. And this is his site for which you can push the counseling which is good I am sure. But you are starting to sound so negative yourself that you are turning people away from this site. Whatever you are going thru yourself you might want to back off on these folks trying to get some help or at least vent a little so as to have a little clearer view of thier marriages. MB helped me and I never had to go to the counseling though I purchased and read at least 3 of his books.

I want people to get better and have happy marriages.

I love the Harley books and love the fact he is counseling people and helping them. I have never and would never think of chastising him. I chastise you a little maybe for unwittengly "turning people off" of his counseling services by your militant attitudes. Harley is great and so are the books, etc.

I love the Harley books and love the fact he is counseling people and helping them. I have never and would never think of chastising him. I chastise you a little maybe for unwittingly "turning people off" of his counseling services by your militant attitudes. Harley is great and so are the books, etc.

If you make this board seem unwelcoming, like with MA when you accused him of not wanting to save his marriage and then chastised him for being here 8 years without signing up for the counseling,, then who will want the counseling?

Mr. A's wife is not in love with him. And YOU'RE telling him to direct her to give him hand jobs? That's going to help her to fall in love with him how??

attacks board members for suggesting legitimate MB resources

Totally untrue.

I am a human being. Yet I do not feel welcome here though I use the Harley books, tapes and have followed the advice in my own marriage.

If I do not feel welcome here because some (possibly errant) words of advice I gave are attacked and clearly I am not allowed to give ANY advice, then more so of other posters. They will not feel welcome here either. You dont see Mr Alias coming back to post anytime soon. Just my observations...

Yet you would deny that same thing to others

Melody, there is no way I would deny the books and tapes and counseling to others. They are so good, why would i ever deny people these????????

If I do not feel welcome here because some (possibly errant) words of advice I gave are attacked and clearly I am not allowed to give ANY advice, then more so of other posters. They will not feel welcome here either. You dont see Mr Alias coming back to post anytime soon. Just my observations...

I am told that Jennifer in particular is skilled at convincing wives that SF is a legitimate need within marriage. If your marriage is fairly good and open in other areas, then I would urge you to give the Harleys a shot at helping you overcome your LBs and helping your wife address her reluctance to be an enthusiastic sex partner.

To be quite honest I know I am in love with my wife. I truly think I'm just to the point where the one conflict in our R is causing me pain and thus I feel myself withdrawing ... worse I see myself doing the kind of BS like DJ'ing her instead of working the program.

Saying things to her like I've given up are probably just one way of making attempts to shake things up ... to do something differently because everything else, while its made my marriage a more solid marriage, still has yet to resolve comfortably the one conflict that appears to cause me the most difficulty in being married to her.

I do know I'm tired of the pain, the rejection and the lonely feeling those things bring. I'm tired of being depressed. Tired of thinking of the heaping pile of negatives in my life. Try as I can to be positive I'm wore down to the point where I'm extremely sensitive to all negative things that happen.

I must say to everyone that I accept all feedback. To pretend there's one cut and dry method of restoring love in the marriage is probably foolish. Each couple is different and depending on the personalities and issues within the marriage the path to the restoration is going to be slightly different for everyone.

[quReally, what if my wife's lack of need meeting stem from something other than a romantic love for me? Is Jennifer qualified to deal with areas outside of simple MB principals and concepts? You see my fear? My wife knows what it takes to have a great marriage, she knows that SF is a legitimate need for me and states she's trying. But when the rubber meets the road that's where she fails.

Yup, this is truth.

Why NOT try this, nothing else seems to be working.

Well before I try this I'd better due my part of getting back on the program. We go in there now and all my issues will be my fault because I haven't been doing the things necessary to create romantic love. Trouble is I just don't feel it right now. I am actually at a point in my life where I have to go through the motions until I get back to that feeling.

Well before I try this I'd better due my part of getting back on the program. We go in there now and all my issues will be my fault because I haven't been doing the things necessary to create romantic love. Trouble is I just don't feel it right now. I am actually at a point in my life where I have to go through the motions until I get back to that feeling.

Well before I try this I'd better due my part of getting back on the program. We go in there now and all my issues will be my fault because I haven't been doing the things necessary to create romantic love. Trouble is I just don't feel it right now. I am actually at a point in my life where I have to go through the motions until I get back to that feeling.

mrAlias, they won't counsel you together anyway so you don't need her there to do it. What Steve or Jennifer will do is tell you what to say to persuade her to get on the phone alone with them. But they will counsel you alone.

Good luck!

Seriously I've tried all of the convos where I try to convince her we're not in love enough and that I want things to be better. She just tells me she's sorry it's not good enough and she'll try harder.

That is not what I am suggesting at all. I am suggesting you let Steve or Jennifer Harley do the selling, instead of you. What you have done is not effective. I am saying you should try something completely and dramatically different this time. If they could sell her on the merits of having a great marriage, then you could do the work yourself with the help of we forum members who have successfully used the program.

You can always find the money for what you value most - even on a shoestring budget.

And what I'm saying is she will refuse to talk with them. She will just tell me she's sorry it's not good enough and that she'll try harder. I dread the part where I'm going to have to try to convince her it's important enough to me that we should try. She'll look at me like I'm some kind of alien or idiot. Mostly she'll use the all too valid reason .... we can't afford that.

But it's a passive aggressive way of manipulating her. It's more likely to backfire and make things worse.

To buttress KA's comment, Mrs. Hold announced today that she does not feel emotionally safe with me, so sex is off the table. I understand why. But think about it. That means she feels even less inclined toward sex than she has the last 18 years. And it means we have an even higher mountain to climb to get back together. So if you think your going into withdrawal can't make it worse, you are wrong. Your wife can become even more averse to sex than she is now.

Hi Mr. Alias (and Hold, and all),
I haven't been on this site in ages, but look in from time to time. I have been in a fantastic "marriage" to a wonderful woman for quite a few years now. I use quotes because it is a marriage of our own creation, with trusts and powers of attorney, not with state license. She is ten years my junior, and she is amazing, sexy, giving, hard working, and the best friend I've ever had. I only say this as a matter of catching up with my friends here, not as a point of discussion.

I had to write because my previous marriage, the one that brought me here, was a lot like yours, in a way, and probably a lot worse. Some may remember.

What I wanted to say is that your wife will never change. She is who she is, and you have to make the decision to accept her or make a move in another direction. It really ends up being that simple.

In my previous marriage, I got really twisted up about the lack of sex, her constant unlimited spending, and the awful feeling of loneliness I had when I was with her. She would be kind and loving to everyone, while ignoring me(in my view). My ex was/is very beautiful, and she gave herself to those in need. But she never saw my needs. I was the walking wallet.

I was angry every day. Just like you, I couldn't believe she didn't see what she was doing to me. All the while, she was content with the status quo.

Looking back on it, I realize that all of that anger, resentment, and snivelling over sex got me nowhere. I was spinning my wheels. Our relationship was in a stalemate. I felt like a child, even though I'm a great guy with a great career.

The divorce was the hardest, most excruciating thing I've ever gone through.
It made me stronger, though, and really opened my eyes to how much power a woman has in a marriage. This ain't the fifties anymore.

I guess I just really feel for guys like us who have been in this situation. We do the right thing, and we ask for little, but so many times we are taken for granted. It really blows.

Mr.Alias, I would put the hopes of a wild sex life on the back burner right now. You need to heal, and get back to your confident old self. I know it's hard when you are basically living a monk's life, but there are ways. I, myself, have non-MarriageBuilder-approved philosophies about what guys like you and Hold should do, but that's just me.

The point is, you have to step back and take and get to a state of mind where you can be yourself again. Your wife definitely will not submit favorably to a snivelling, whining guy who is constantly at her to get him off. I only say this because that's probably how she sees it. She does not at all understand.

Get on top of your career (I'm a software engineer, too.) Get working out on a constant basis. Lose some weight and get looking as good as you can. This is not for your wife, but for you. Also, working out does wonders for your moods.

Get out of the house more. She's got her horse thing, so you do whatever makes you happy. Get a little more assertive in your role around the house. Don't be a whining malcontent. Women hate that.

Allow yourself to enjoy looks from other women. This is not illegal, and it gives you a nice little boost. Think about them when you have "self time". And have lots of self time!! Don't worry if your wife knows or not. This is all about you.

By the middle of this summer you could be a carefree, in-shape stud with a damn good career. Your wife will notice this, for one. It's kind of a indirect Plan A.

And one other thing, never feel like things will never get better. You can have whatever you want. It may not be an easy path to get there, but it is still true.

My rotten ex-marriage is all in the past now. That was my path. And I am smashingly, uncompromisingly, ecstatically, happy now. Every day is better than the previous one. We're in love still, even after almost eight years of being together.

I hope you pick yourself up and get to work on yourself. It could be a really good summer for you!

PM, if you read the When to Call It Quits newsletters, this is very close to what Ellen was advised to do, get her ducks in a row for Plan B.

What I wanted to say is that your wife will never change. She is who she is, and you have to make the decision to accept her or make a move in another direction. It really ends up being that simple.

"First I fix the relationship, and nine times out of ten, sexual problems disappear, with or without unresolved childhood experiences. I spend very little time fixing sexual problems these days because most couples I counsel don't have sexual problems after they have learned to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement. "

here

ML, I have asked you politely to stop flogging me on other people's threads. I don't see why you feel the need to pound on me when I am among those suggesting MrA call the Harleys. Yet you persist. I am asking you once again to please stop.

Allow yourself to enjoy looks from other women. This is not illegal, and it gives you a nice little boost. Think about them when you have "self time". And have lots of self time!! Don't worry if your wife knows or not. This is all about you.

ML, I have asked you politely to stop flogging me on other people's threads. I don't see why you feel the need to pound on me when I am among those suggesting MrA call the Harleys. Yet you persist. I am asking you once again to please stop.

Why even go out in public ever again?

My suggestion was that since Mr. Alias is getting no response from his wife, (and yes, maybe she will change in a glacier-like timeframe), and he intends to stay in the marriage, he should pick himself up, take care of himself, work out, relieve himself, and get happy and confident so that maybe, just freaking maybe, his wife will respond to the happy, confident Mr. Alias.

And I disagree, there is NOTHING WRONG with enjoying the fact that a person of the opposite sex finds you attractive! If that were the case, my wife would be the worst person in the world, as she turns many heads.

Allow yourself to enjoy looks from other women. This is not illegal, and it gives you a nice little boost. Think about them when you have "self time". And have lots of self time!! Don't worry if your wife knows or not. This is all about you.

My point is simply that even with counselling, even with Marriage Builders counselling, the stalemate that occurs when one spouse ignores the other's pleas for intimacy is a long, vicious one.

Tom, or anyone, if you want to take a swipe at my morals, then take it off this thread.

Wait, WHAT?

Mr. Alias is NOT WORKING ON HIS MARRIAGE? I can't wait to see what he says about that.

But.......he hasn't tried Marriage Builders counseling. I think one should try that before they give up. Many can do it yourself with a couple of books and the workbook, but when that doesn't work, it is time to try a professional, IMO.

If that doesn't work, I am a big advocate of Plan B, just as Dr Harley prescribes. When a spouse refuses to meet your needs, sometimes separation or even divorce is the definition of success.

To decode: "Masturbate and think about other, attractive women. Do this a lot."

Eew. Don't take up this pervy suggestion, Alias. You are a much better man than that.

I suspect it will come down to me having to call on the professionals.

You are lying to yourself. You know you can't fix this without help. Either tell us you aren't interested in fixing it. Or hire the Harleys. But don't tell us you want to fix it and think you can make it work yourself. Time for Radical Honesty.

[
No I'm not. It's out of my control and it's up to her. I'm just giving her a chance. I spoke about the frequency and she said let's start fresh.

However I'm not kidding myself. Based on past experience I'm quite certain she will fall short yet again. I've said that several times now. And when that happens I will inform her of the next step I'm going to take. She can get on board with the plan if she wants to.

Meanwhile I'm going to get myself back.

I have always had "self time" during our marriage. The physical ramifications of not having this means I'm constantly reminded by my hormones that "Hey you're not getting any.".

If your next step is moving out, then you might as well call the Harleys. A few sessions with them won't cost any more than the security deposit on the apartment you'll need. And they might actually get your wife to POJA with you (which is apparently the result you want).

The key is whether you are willing to do the work to reconnect with her. Not a given. I am not. If you are, then hire the Harleys to maximize the chance she will get on board. If you are not, then don't pretend you have moved out of Withdrawal.

By all means I think the counseling would be benficial. However, I can say my wife and I did the counseling and it did not help much. I don't blame the counseling or the process, it's just simply counseling will not help a person who does not think they need help. MC or IC does great for people who say their life is terrible and need help to fix it. It's not so effective for the person who says "my life is great, I just don't understand why everyone is so upset with me."

There is no plan here. Having no plan is a plan to fail. Just nagging her about the frequency does not resolve the basic problem that causes the lack of frequency: she is not in love. MrAlias, you are spinning your wheels, my good friend.

And as far as a plan is concerned ... well if the only plan is your plan then NO I have no plan. If I'm allowed to go at my pace and decide when I'm ready to begin counseling again or withdrawing again then you can call that my plan. I'm sorry it doesn't fit within your requirement.

My wife and I know the concepts. We've taken the surveys. We talk occassionally about where we are at and whether or not we're happy. Lately she hasn't asked because she knows the answer. We make mutual decisions about things that are of importance. It isn't a formalized method but we do it our way and it works.

I think you're wrong. If you were to ask my wife I think she would tell you she's deeply in love with me. I can see it. She tries hard to fill all the other needs. She just isn't good at filling this one.

It gets a little "cultish" around here.

I wish the coaching with the Harley's would happen for you, but I'm not sure you don't shoot yourself in the foot if you set it up. I think even if you pushed for it, your wife would give in for the purpose of appeasing you as opposed to for the purpose of marriage building. I don't think that works out very well.

If it were me, I would approach it by expressing your feelings (without coming across as whiny or nagging) and let her propose a solution. And then critically review that solution for loopholes. i.e. ask her what she expects you to do when/if she does not deliver on her committments.

Did she never meet this need? If she did, then barring physical or mental issues, it seems difficult to conclude she is deeply in love with you and won't meet the need for SF.

I think you might be confusing enthusiasm for Marriage Builders with being "cultish." And I can understand why you would see it that way, since you have not really recovered* your own marriage. It sounds to me like nothing has really changed except you have simply lowered your standards. [*recovery as defined by MB] "cultish" is defined as:

�noun
1. a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies.

The only one I worship is God. However, I am enthusiastic about a program that has brought passion and joy to my own marriage. It has changed my quality of life. So of course, I would be passionate about such a program and hope that others could attain the same thing. I want the same thing for others. Promoting Marriage Builders on this forum is not cultish. That is ludicrous.

Always wanting to argue. Would dogmatic have been more palitable?

The enthusiasm is great, but do you even read what people post anymore before you respond with the answer? Or does nothing else matter, MB will solve it? There is only one solution and it is MB, is that the point?

And if you don't have good logic you're more than happy to tell them they are a failure who has lowered their standards. Hopefully I'm wrong about that feeling.

She has always been this way. It's better now then it was about 5 or 6 years ago but it's still way too little. Heck my compromise was once a week when its possible. I thought I could live with that. Up to this point I have no idea if I could because it has seldom happened.

Has she said she's in love with you? You keep saying you believe she is. This is an assumption.

Do you not understand that accusing people of being "cultish" or even "dogmatic" is insulting? When you insult someone and attempt to dismiss them you invite argument. I take issue with being branded as "cultish." How dare you.

Yes, that is what we are here to discuss, isn't it? Did you see the sign on the door?

This forum is open not only to those who have questions, but also to those with comments or suggestions. So we recommend that all participants of the discussion forum be familiar with Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts. However, the advice given is NOT to be construed as professional advice, nor is it even endorsed by Marriage Builders, unless Dr. Harley is specifically named as the responder. It's available to you as an opportunity to explore other people's opinions as they relate to your problem.

That sounds to me like you have simply lowered your standards. I think its important to ask if this approach has worked for you.

I believe I am familiar with the concepts and am in good faith allowing people the opportunity to explore other people's opinions as they relate to their problem.

If their is a sign on the door that says my opinions must be limited to encouraging strict adherence to MB, then I must have missed it.

This announcement is to clarify our policy about the discussion of other marriage books and programs on our forum. Such discussion is acceptable, except on the threads of those seeking help for their marriages. Offering alternative methods to those in need promises to confuse and discourage them, often leading to unnecessary debates. Posters attempting to help should not be put in the position of having to debate basic principles. That is not helpful to anyone, most especially the poster in need.

I find this to be insulting. How dare you.

My approach has worked quite well for me.

And even if I POJA'd to shop for a purse with my wife every month, instead of every week like she really wants, I would get a little panicky, imagining all of the months ahead in life that I need to do this thing that I really don't feel like doing.

My wife and I know the concepts. We've taken the surveys. We talk occassionally about where we are at and whether or not we're happy. Lately she hasn't asked because she knows the answer. We make mutual decisions about things that are of importance. It isn't a formalized method but we do it our way and it works.

Has she said she's in love with you? You keep saying you believe she is. This is an assumption.

The solution is to find a way to meet his needs that she finds PLEASANT. Women need 2 things to enjoy sex: an emotional attachment and the prospect of enjoyment. It might be that she is not in love with him [which is what I sort of suspect even though he feels otherwise] and/or does not enjoy the way he makes love. If one or more of those elements are present, then she won't want to make love to him.

Maybe those come lumped into the prospect of enjoyment but for the most part are things I have little control over. Doesn't mean she doesn't enjoy sex or doesn't love me enough. It just means there are roadblocks.

"First I fix the relationship, and nine times out of ten, sexual problems disappear, with or without unresolved childhood experiences. I spend very little time fixing sexual problems these days because most couples I counsel don't have sexual problems after they have learned to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement. "

We both say it every day. The part I'm assuming is the part where I believe she's romantically in love with me. Have I asked her this? Nope. Been working up the courage to have that conversation.

An aversion is a negative emotional reaction that's been conditioned to a behavior. In other words, if you have bad experiences doing something, you will learn to associate those bad experiences with the task. The very thought of it will eventually create anxiety and unhappiness, and then doing it will make matters even worse.

Some psychologists, for reasons known only to them, like to shock rats. They have shown that if you subject a poor rat to an electric shock every time it takes a drink of water, it will not necessarily stop drinking water. But the rat will become very nervous whenever it does.

Humans go through the same experience. If your boss yells at you occasionally when you go to the water cooler, you will find yourself very tense whenever you drink from it. Your boss's yelling, which gives you a negative emotional reaction, becomes conditioned to your drinking from the water cooler. It's not the drinking itself that's unpleasant, it's the association of drinking with your boss yelling that triggers your reaction.

Aversions can be created in association with anything we do. Unpleasant classroom experiences can create "school phobia," something many children have great difficulty overcoming. An automobile accident can leave people with a fear of driving. Even shopping for groceries can raise anxiety in people who have had a bad grocery shopping experience.

Remember how you developed the aversion in the first place? You associated a certain behavior, having sex, with an unpleasant emotional reaction to something your husband did to you. Eventually the unpleasant reaction was triggered whenever you even thought about having sex with your husband, and certainly whenever you made love.

To overcome the aversion, you must break the association of sex with your husband from the unpleasant emotional reaction. The easiest way to do that is to associate sex with the state of relaxation.

I think the beta blockers are basically serving the same purpose as the deep relaxation used in Harley's steps to overcome sexual aversion.

Have you worked through the process Dr. Harley lays out to overcome a sexual aversion?

To answer the other questions yes she enjoys sex. We discussed it and she said she does enjoy but she also turns around and says she could live without it. Probably 50% of the time I'm able to help her achieve orgasm (I assume that's a sign of enjoyment). The other 50% of the time I don't think she's interested in having one and its more about me being taken care of.

To answer the other questions yes she enjoys sex. We discussed it and she said she does enjoy but she also turns around and says she could live without it. Probably 50% of the time I'm able to help her achieve orgasm (I assume that's a sign of enjoyment).

This weekend she was upset because we had a date night Saturday but she found she was 'out-of-commision'. She just returned to commission the weekend before (we were together that weekend). She said she was sorry, gave me a hug. I said you can't control those things and I'll be OK. We went out on our date and had a nice time.

Lying in bed Sunday I thought about my limitations to getting my needs filled. I struck up a conversation about her being out of commission and alternatives during that time. I did tell her I really was more into us sharing the experience instead of her just relieving me physically. She agreed and said she wasn't interested in taking care of me during that time. She prefers the intimacy of sharing ... I think that's important to me too. I get more out of it if I can give while I'm receiving. Limited thinking I know but I don't think I'm way off base or destroying the M for having those limitations. I suspect we should have discussed more but I didn't feel like pushing it.

I realize it says a lot about me that I'm also gun-shy about trying/asking for things outside of the box. It's hard to break out of that comfort zone. Yet I do dream about her being more than she is from a sexual perspective. How does one go about asking for that without coming off looking or feeling like a pig?

MyAlias,

As an aside (but an important one)--has she been checked out by a doctor? Every other week seems pretty intense and out of whack. THere are things they can do with targeted hormonal replacement that can help to ease that, and may even help renew some of her desire.

Cycles like that can indicate hormonal fluctuations (extreme!) or other, more dangerous situations, like ovarian cancer.

Why not be radically honest with her and show her this thread? She can't very well make changes if she doesn't know exactly what the problem is. Nor is it fair to her for us to know more about her marriage than she does.

Radical honesty, my friend..

This sounds much more like peaceful co-existance than romantic love. I think that is going to be the key for you, MrA.

So my options are what? To convince her she needs to speak to someone cuz others here feel she's got issues?

1). The sexual abuse she suffered from the hands of her brother when she was not quite a teenager. Plus an attempted rape.
2). All the horrible messages delivered by her mother that leaves my wife with a bad feeling in her stomach. "Women are meant to be seen and not heard. Sex is bad and should never be discussed in conversation."
3). She still isn't happy that I wasn't enthusiastic about more kids.

Maybe those come lumped into the prospect of enjoyment but for the most part are things I have little control over. Doesn't mean she doesn't enjoy sex or doesn't love me enough. It just means there are roadblocks.

I did approach her about this state of our marriage. She said she was fine. It wasn't the answer I was hoping to get ... but then I stopped doing much of what I was doing before so ... maybe fine is better than I should have expected at this juncture.

I think I create a good portion of the problem. Always have been. I'm the coward who's so trained to leave her alone that I do. The moron martyr who can't find his Taker in an appropriate way. It's probably a good reason why she picked me to marry because I'm a bit enabling and don't push too much.

It seems to me, in the type of situation you are in, if you have to "ask" or "approach" her about your needs, that it becomes just another chore to put on her to-do list.

Does she respond to passionate kissing? Can you stick on some mood music and scoop her up to dance in the living room while the kids laugh at you? What would happen if you two took a bath together?

I'm just saying, anything other than having to verbally ask for it, which I can fully understand would not be attractive to her.

I didn't mean as a point of spelling out needs. Once done, once it has been hammered into the ground, I don't see how on an individual event (like on a Saturday night) POJA'ing for sex is going to go over well.

It seems to me at some point, after EN's have long been established, the verbal approach would cause Mrs. Alias to roll her eyes and think of her to-do list.

I didn't mean as a point of spelling out needs. Once done, once it has been hammered into the ground, I don't see how on an individual event (like on a Saturday night) POJA'ing for sex is going to go over well.

It seems to me at some point, after EN's have long been established, the verbal approach would cause Mrs. Alias to roll her eyes and think of her to-do list.

Meanwhile I'm going to do everything I can to create the romantic love we had not that many months ago.

[Meanwhile I'm going to do everything I can to create the romantic love we had not that many months ago. I'm hoping this latest withdrawal stage I went through scared her enough. I know it scared and depressed me. I've certainly explained my feelings of not caring anymore to her and how much it scared me. I told her during that time that I didn't think we were going to make it.

My plan is to do what I can to create that romantic, connected love we had and see where it takes us. If it takes us back to where we were before then I feel I'll have ammunition/justification to say we need to take this one step further and get some professional help.

BTW I feel good about the plan. It gives me hope that we'll either make it on our own or we'll get help that will help us make it. It's giving me some motivation and lifting the horrible feeling I've had for over a year now.

People in your position try, usually for years, to get their spouses' attention. Those that complain often feel guilty about complaining, and their spouses often remind them that they should be grateful for what they do have, instead of being critical of what they don't do. So these people learn to say less and less as the problems becomes greater and greater. Some people never do complain because they don't want to be perceived as critical an unappreciative. But in the end, the marital conflicts take their toll -- they lose the feeling of love for their spouses.

When that happens, the person gives up. He or she comes to the conclusion that the spouse will not change and that they must get used to the idea of living without care or consideration. Some of these people remain married for the sake of their values or children, but they remain emotionally distant from their spouses to minimize their pain.

I've long given up on many of the concepts of this site.

The plan didn't work.

Tell us what you have done to recover your marriage, Mr. A. Tell us what you did.

I've read a few books namely The 5 Love Languages; to name a few.

That is naming one.

Have you read any books by Dr Harley? This site, Marriage Builders, is for help and advice in using his materials ater all.

If I had the energy to I would. I've been coming to this site on and off for a number of years and have done my darndest to implement anything and everything short of the counseling offered by the Harleys. We've been to marriage counseling, individual counseling, her and I did the questionaire years ago, I've read a few books namely The 5 Love Languages; to name a few. She's not interested in others telling her what she should do. She wants to do it her way ... but with her way there is no plan. You just co-exist and be happy with what you got.

I'm numb to her.

[I certainly have no interest in dropping hundreds of dollars to have a counselor tell me try what I already know and have tried.

I am totally paralyzed. I don't have enough feelings for her to really even care. And it appears she's feeling the same way as she is also not interacting much with me. We just communicate on the necessities.

So as you may be able to see I have NO interest in starting up again.

I'm cruising until the kids are grown. That's about 8 more years give or take.

I'm just putting in my time

My Bank is closed and my heart won't let my head try to open it again.

I certainly have no interest in dropping hundreds of dollars to have a counselor tell me try what I already know and have tried.

I would try Marriage Builders, MrA. You have never used Marriage Builders in all these years. Filling out a questionaire and posting on a chat forum will not help your marriage. You have to actually do the work.

[quote=MelodyLane]I would try Marriage Builders, MrA. You have never used Marriage Builders in all these years. Filling out a questionaire and posting on a chat forum will not help your marriage. You have to actually do the work.

Hi MrAlias! If you have tried and tried to implement this program on your own to no avail, I would try using the professional services at Marriage Builders. Many of us have gone to the weekend or used the counseling services with great results. For my marriage, I only got so far doing it on my own. We went to the MB weekend in 2007 and it made a huge difference.

I can see right off that the problem in your marriage is that your wife and you are not in love. I don't know how strictly you have implemented this program, but I do know that if you cut corners on crucial things like UA time and the POJA, that you are spinning your wheels. For example, Dr Harley says his program doesn't even work if you don't spend at least 15 hours of TRUE UA time per week. In your case it needs to be 25 to 30 just to create romantic love and 15 to maintain.

It's sad to see that you have been here for years and are still in the same predicament. But I am not surprised. There are others who have used this forum - for years - to discuss specific conflicts rather than implement this program. They are in the same boat as when they arrived.

This Harley quote came to mind when I read your post:

No. After reading a couple of the love languages books, reading everything on this site several times over and having received advice from this forum for over 10 years I doubt there is anything in those books that I am not already aware of.

Been on Marriage Builders for 10 years and never read a single book. I rest my case.

Rhetorical question: Do you really want to live like you are now for 8 more years?

Thanks for minimizing all of the work I did those first 8 or 9 years. [sarcasm]It feels so good

No. After reading a couple of the love languages books, reading everything on this site several times over and having received advice from this forum for over 10 years I doubt there is anything in those books that I am not already aware of.

There are two kinds of resentment: (1) Resentment due to something one of you DID to the other that was hurtful, and (2) resentment due to something you DIDN'T do for yourself that you would have liked, but would have hurt your spouse. Your husband has the first kind of resentment because you had an affair three months into your marriage. What you did hurt him. You have the second kind of resentment because you now feel obligated to avoid seeing a friend who is a threat to your husband.

I found where Dr. H talks about the two different types of resentment, but not type A and B.

Following POJA whe you're very incompatible

Been on Marriage Builders for 10 years and never read a single book. I rest my case.

These conclusions are reflected in my book His Needs, Her Needs where I explain how couples build romantic love by learning how to meet each other's most important emotional needs.

Your disregard of the 5 love languages book IMHO is a bit off the mark. It was an excellent book that described in much similarity the same principals as the most important Emotional Needs. It just had a more generalized categorization of the needs but it went into great detail and real life examples of those concepts and I suspect it is very similar if not identical to the Drs HNHN book. It is a great book and helped me understand a lot of how her and I could/should operate.

I suspect it is very similar if not identical to the Drs HNHN book.

Heck I probably don't belong on this site anymore anyways as one of the things that have turned me off is her drinking. It's gotten excessive and there's a chance there's some dependency issues. I spoke to her about it and she dialed it back. But now this week she's back at it ...I suspect to send me a message. You withdraw I stop doing what you want.

MrA, have you looked into taking any antidepressant medication. In the rare cases I've heard of where Dr. Harley has coached a husband to stay in a marriage with a traumatic situation (ongoing, active affair on the part of the wife), he has directed the husband to get antidepressant medication from a doctor to help him get through it.

If you are seriously planning to live in a bad marriage for 8 years, at a minimum, you should get some antidepressant medication.

[Your disregard of the 5 love languages book IMHO is a bit off the mark. It was an excellent book that described in much similarity the same principals as the most important Emotional Needs. It just had a more generalized categorization of the needs but it went into great detail and real life examples of those concepts and I suspect it is very similar if not identical to the Drs HNHN book. It is a great book and helped me understand a lot of how her and I could/should operate. I liked it so much I bought the 5 Love Languages for Children and it has been an integral part in understanding the extreme differences in each of my kids and how I could build a loving relationship with each one of them.

I am not saying the program doesn't work. I'm not even saying I completely committed to it. I will say I took a pretty damn big stab at it given my circumstances and if you truly knew everything I tried that one would consider MB principals you'd avoid comments like "I rest my case.".

Melody most of your suggestions involve me trying to implement specific rules with a partner that isn't interested in implementing this plan. Up until a couple of years ago I have done my part to follow what is taught here. I upped our UA time without making it an official announcement.

MrA, you sound miserable and combative. You are shooting at the rescue helicopters.

If you want to survive the next 8 years, I really think antidepressant medication would be a good idea.

Convincing us you are right won't help your situation. Even if you are right. You might win the debate with us, and still have an unhappy life.]

Will she go to AA?

What about AlAnon for you?

Five Love Languages doesn't have a plan to transform your marriage; Marriage Builders DOES. 5LL focuses on "communication" which is cute and winsome but is a distraction from creating romantic love in the marriage. It won't help a bad marriage because there is no PLAN to do so. Even the best communicators will end up divorced if they are not in love. The fact that you don't know the difference demonstrates your lack of understanding of this program. Not to mention the fact that it hasn't helped your own marriage.

MrA, that really explains a lot, the drinking, and I understand the reluctance to share it. It explains why she used to be so dead-set on putting time with the horse ahead of family time on the weekends, because they can both escape mechanisms. You've read the articles on an alcoholic marriage, right, you know no matter how much UA time you get and how in love with you she becomes it's not going to make her more willing to shift from the Renter mindset "how little can I do to get him off my back today" to Buyer mode, "what can I do to make us both happy." No wonder you're out of steam. Al-anon has been a great help to me getting my serenity back, and helping my kids learn tools to live with the situation. You had tried it before, right, did it click with you?

(((hugs)))

His goal is to maintain the status quo. A person who has the same problems after 10 years is not seeking solutions.

Have you told your wife that you are only planning to stay until the kids are grown?

bzzzt. Wrong answer. The intention of the book was to spur on action to determine what your partner's love language was and to take action from there. There was even a chapter on what to do with a reluctant spouse who wouldn't communicate their needs (love language).

The fact you don't know what that book offers tells me your still on your one trick pony and aren't willing to be flexible with a process that is nearly identical to the one you're preaching.

[
The fact you don't know what that book offers tells me your still on your one trick pony and aren't willing to be flexible with a process that is nearly identical to the one you're preaching.

Nor is Marriage Builders a "flexible" program. It is a very exacting program that has very specific steps. It is not flexible and it is not a cafeteria plan when you cherry pick things you like and reject things you don't like. It only works when worked in its entirety. For example, when Dr Harley was in active practice, he would refuse to counsel anyone would not commit to necessary hours to do his program. He would tell them to go elsewhere. If he told them to a certain lesson, they had to do it or he did not go onto the next step.

No flexibility at all. Being flexible is worthless if it means you don't follow the necessary steps to change your marriage. Creating romantic love is "one trick," not several.

[




I don't always agree with Mel, but when I do... I drink Dos Equis....

I went a couple of years ago but that was when I wanted to know if I could help my SIL because my BIL is an alcoholic. I only went to 4 sessions. Got a lot out of it. But stopped as I realized this was going to a long journey and what I'd get would be minimal. I also hoped it would spur on my SIL to attend in a chapter close to her city.

Now? Because my wife is drinking? Hmmm. Not sure I would.

The fact you don't know what that book offers tells me your still on your one trick pony and aren't willing to be flexible with a process that is nearly identical to the one you're preaching.

The fact you don't know what that book offers tells me your still on your one trick pony and aren't willing to be flexible

Not that it's a true barometer but she said she was happy and satisfied whenever I asked how she thought we were doing.

Nope. The Policy of Radical Honesty went out the door some 8 months or more ago. Along with all other MB principles.

Nope. The Policy of Radical Honesty went out the door some 8 months or more ago.

I don't always agree with Mel, but when I do... I drink Dos Equis....

"My program of marriage recovery is exactly the same as most weight loss programs. Whenever it's followed, the marriage recovers. I know of no other program of marital recovery that can make that claim. In fact, if you follow the advice of most marriage recovery programs today, your marriage will not recover. That's why a 1995 Consumer's Report survey found marriage counseling to be the least effective form of psychotherapy. Only 16% found the experience to be helpful.

For those who complete my program of marital recovery, 100% find the experience to be more than helpful -- it solves their marital problems. But just like in dieting, the successful outcome depends entirely on motivation. Only those who are not motivated enough to complete the program fail."

How do you feel we can we help you?

And what did she say when you explained to her that you were NOT happy and satisfied? What did she say when you asked her to do MB counselling with Steve?

And what did she say when you explained to her that you were NOT happy and satisfied? What did she say when you asked her to do MB counselling with Steve?

I'll ask again:And what did she say when you explained to her that you were NOT happy and satisfied?

What did she say when you asked her to do MB counselling with Steve?

It's taken me a long time to work up the energy to send this. I'm sorry it has and I'm also sorry that I have to say the things I'm about to say.

I'm sure it's no surprise we're in trouble. That you and I have drifted far, far apart. Something has definitely changed for me and I feel really sad to find where I am at today.

I've lost a lot of the love that I have for you <MrsAlias>. This is something very new for me and I'm not sure exactly why it has come to this except to say that some things have been stacked up against us and we've done a poor job of tending to our marriage. I know you've been attempting a few things trying to keep some form of a relationship going but unfortunately it isn't working for me.

We need to do something different.

Because I've lost what I once had I feel lost and trapped. I'm no longer in a position where being close to you is what I desire. The reasons are plenty and as you know some of them may not be totally in your control. Still those are things I know if we worked together on a plan many of those issues would disappear. Regardless of that I find myself in a place where I really haven't felt motivated to do something about it. I mean I'm lonely and sad and thus want things to be different but something in me is keeping me from trying anything with you or rather it just isn't appealing to me.

I can't go on like this. I don't want to live the next umpteen years feeling like I have no relationship and I cannot go on not having an affectionate relationship. As of late the kids have really kept me grounded. I really don't want to break the family apart just because I've allowed my relationship with you to die. I imagine the pain it would cause the kids and thinking of what they would have to endure brings tears to my eyes. I just can't do that to them as it would be wrong and a cowardly thing to do.

I don't want a relationship with another person. I'm happy being a Dad and really wish the next few years continuing to be that, a whole family and a Dad. That thought gives me motivation. But you and I just aren't working right now.

I have ideas/plans of things we could do. Some of them are the same things I've discussed with you earlier and some of them are a bit different than what we've discussed in the past. But I really need your assistance in initiating them if you're willing to try something to fix this. I'm pretty sure with work I can get back what is lost but I'm afraid to try, to even start.

You never talk to me about us, as I've shut down talking about us, so I have no idea where you are at. I'm pretty certain you are just as unhappy as I am.

I am interested to hear what you think.

How about asking her out on a date, rather than ignoring her and then telling her you don't love her? I wasn't all that interested in having sex with my H when he was ignoring me and not dating me. Women typically don't find that kind of thing appealing.

Mralias, about the only hope I see here is to get her on the phone with Steve Harley long enough for him to sell her on the MB on.ine program. If you get her on board with the online program Dr Harley and your assigned coach can run point on keeping you both motivated. That is the only way I see any hope here.

That is the plan I would have in your back pocket when you discuss solutions.

What is your plan if she says no?

I think I'm just going to send the letter. I fear she won't want to talk with Steve but I think it is exactly what we need seeing we both are reluctant albeit in different ways.

You would be better off if you counseled with Steve ALONE and let *HIM* help you compose the letter and tell you how to approach her. That is what I would do. He is very creative and might be able to give you a new approach that will reach her. He actually gives people talking points to do this.

I see. OK. I'll give that some thought.

In my sitch, I did tell him I was making the call, and he could join me if he'd like, but I did not give him the option for him to say NO to me.

So it's probable that Steve is out. Doesn't Steve's wife counsel too and would she be a good fit for us?

Steve's sister Jennifer Chalmers counseled us. She was blindsided by my XH but he was a world class gaslighter. It really did not matter because the moment we tried to use the Policy of Joint Agreement (POJA) he gave the game away by agreeing not to do the thing I was not comfortable with and then going off and doing it anyway.

She agreed to counseling and even said she was doing some searching the last couple of weeks. I am persuading her that we see an MB counselor. She is hesitant about phone counseling (which surprised me).

Melody, she prefers to speak with a woman counselor. I suspect that is because she's expecting the topics of her past(abuse) and doesn't want to discuss it with a man.

[

In your opinion if you have a couple that truly wants to make a change is Jennifer more than qualified to help with that?

I don't think my wife nor I would try to manipulate the sessions. We just need a guide and someone to hold us accountable.

In your opinion if you have a couple that truly wants to make a change is Jennifer more than qualified to help with that?

I don't think my wife nor I would try to manipulate the sessions. We just need a guide and someone to hold us accountable.

She agreed to counseling and even said she was doing some searching the last couple of weeks. I am persuading her that we see an MB counselor. She is hesitant about phone counseling (which surprised me).

But I caution you about leaving this selection of a counselor open to her, because if you don't get a MB counselor all of your efforts will - ONCE AGAIN - be wasted.

And they won't be talking about your wife's past "abuse." That would be a waste of time. That is what BAD counselors do.

[
I know she's tired of living with her anxieties and OCD. But I am just speculating what she's thinking and that's not my job. Her and Jennifer will have to hash that out.

Why don't they list her credentials on the website? I want to send my wife some info.

CALL the coaching center and ask them to send her credentials. AND MAKE THE DAMN APPOINTMENT!!

Hi, MrA, it's good to see you back, and fantastic to hear you guys are going to speak with Dr. Chalmers! I agree with MelodyLane: make an appointment for yourself with Jennifer, immediately with no delay. Dr. Chalmers can help you get your wife involved. Not so long ago you were posting about how you were practically paralyzed, so you need to get to speaking to her right away to get you moving.

After that, I would move toward the goal MelodyLane mentioned earlier: use Dr. Chalmers to get your wife on board with the MB online program, and then you can work directly with an assigned coach and Dr. Harley to keep you both motivated.

I will be making the call a little later. I can't do it at work here as there is no real place for privacy.

She agreed to me scheduling an appt with Dr Chalmers. Meanwhile I assume she's contemplating what she wants to do.

Ugh. Stupid Health Spending Acct. Marriage Counseling is not an eligible expense. Maybe I should fake a nervous breakdown so it will be covered and I can spend the money I've deposited into the account. Grrrr.

You can email them and ask for the appointment.

Jennifer Chalmers does evenings, Steve does mornings.

If figure the phone call will cut to the quick.

Otherwise I could play email tag trying to find a time available that works for me. I'd have to do this before or after work and with 3 kids and school functions well ... trying to plan anything gets interesting that's for sure.

Also I would like to talk to a real body about the 5 session discount but at this point I'm unsure how many sessions we'll require. Please don't tell me 20 as I can't afford that! ;-)

MrA, I absolutely agree with Markos. I would get 5 sessions with Dr Chalmers in order to persuade your wife to get into the online program. You need help every step of the way and you are not going to be able to go through the whole program on your own. You need the full treatment. You will need the help of the MB coaches and Dr Harley to keep you two on the right track every step of way.

What the heck?

Dr. Chalmers doesn't offer the 5 session discount. Steve does.

Let's face it, not too many guys are into fixing their buddy's marriages or even care to talk about their Ms and I have zero male friends that even know about this program.

As another admission I have a good friend here at work and it is a female friend that has been a huge help to my M. She's kept me honest and is quick with the hammer to set me straight. I think she enjoys the hammer part. :-) I've already informed her that our talks as friends is going to have to change. That I can no longer talk about personal issues. She's of no threat to my M as I'm in no way interested in her nor will I ever be. She is a true friend and friend of the M. However this could be an issue in my M as my W knows I chat a lot to this girl. This is something I'd like to discuss as it is the one principles of MB that I've struggled with. All of the people that have been of huge help to me and my M have been women. Let's face it, not too many guys are into fixing their buddy's marriages or even care to talk about their Ms and I have zero male friends that even know about this program. These female friends (plus my sister) are all very familiar with MB and have used parts of the materials to help in their Ms.

I need a little help.

My wife and I are in counseling with Dr. Chalmers. My wife has her first session tonight. It's my hope she's able to get us going on one of the MB options so this time her and I have a better plan and eliminate the issues that make our M fail.

What am I, chopped liver??? Seriously, I am ready and willing to help you and to be a GUY you can talk to about stuff. I like helping people learn how they can fix their marriages.

Of course the thing about being a really good friend is sometimes we have to tell each other what we don't want to hear. :P

She said YES to the program and thanked me for doing this!!!!!!

Is it bad that I'm waiting for my wife (expectation) to tell me she's excited about this plan and that she sees the value in it for her, that she admits she needs to change?

**EDIT**

Never mind I sent this on to Dr J. Hopefully she doesn't mind me emailing her with these questions and concerns I have.

On the other hand, sexual inhibitions are relatively easy to overcome using other methods that do not require a rehash of the past. I believe you can learn to meet his emotional need for sex in spite of unpleasant experiences you may have had in your childhood.

One of the greatest sexual inhibitors is a bad relationship. If you and your husband are not getting along very well, and that seems to be the case if he is threatening to leave you, your first order of business is to resolve your marital conflicts by taking each other's feeling into account. I'm afraid that more or better sex will not accomplish that objective. When a couple has a bad relationship, I do not begin by encouraging more sex. First I fix the relationship, and nine times out of ten, sexual problems disappear, with or without unresolved childhood experiences. I spend very little time fixing sexual problems these days because most couples I counsel don't have sexual problems after they have learned to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement.

If I could be convinced that you do, in fact, have a loving and caring relationship with your husband, and you still have sexual problems, then my advice for you can be found in my response to the letter that follows.

There is something about romantic love that creates a special incentive to do the things that the other person needs. So a man and a woman that are in love with each other romantically -- which this person doesn't seem to value (not yet, we hope he'll get there, yes) -- if they're in love with each other romantically, your emotions kick in and encourage you to do things that you might not need yourself.

Woman become far more sexually oriented when they are in love. They are more interested in helping them out domestically; they are more interested in looking better for him. They are more interested in going to football games along with him and participating in his recreational activities.

And men, when they're in love, they're more interested in talking to her for hours at a time, to being affectionate with her; they are interested in being more honest and open. In other words, they are more interested in meeting each other's needs when they're in love.

So, the point of my seminars, and the books that I write, says, look: being in love is a big deal. It'll make your relationship really move along, and be very, very, very good for you, and all of his "utility needs" end up being met in a relationship where there is mutual love.

MrA, my first thought is, it's great that your wife was able to talk to you about these feelings and for you to receive them non-judgmentally. Absolutely HUGE. The conversation probably deposited a lot of Love Bank units in your account in her Love Bank. This is probably a big step down the road towards her being in love with you.

Just the talking about it is great! Investigating, informing, and understanding your spouse is one of Dr. Harley's four Friends of good conversation. And conversation is just about the most important emotional need in the world to winning back most withdrawn wives.

I know that's hard for men, because we hear the problem and we want to solve the problem. And when the problem involves us, it hits really close to home and it's easy to get emotional, and from there to irrational, and from there to love busting. Nothing strikes fear into a man's heart more than "I'm not really sure how enthusiastic I am about sex..." So the fact that you kept your cool and let her talk about her feelings shows you are really doing a good job at this.

And I have good news for you. In Dr. Harley's experience, almost all sexual problems simply vanish once the wife is in love with her husband. He's treated couples where the wife was abused, molested, victimized by incest in childhood, etc., and he's seen sexual relationships normalize once the wife is in love with the husband. He says it happens nine times out of ten.

I will share my experience: Prisca and I have been in and out of love a lot, sad to say (and I'll just say that as long as we practice the habits of Marriage Builders, we stay in love!) and during that time, Prisca's sex drive has ranged all the way from pure aversion to can't get enough. It really is true that when my account in her love bank crosses the romantic love threshold, sexual problems vanish. [quote]
Thank you for sharing. It�s very nice to have success stories hang around here to give people proof and hope that a marriage can be recovered and/or improved.

[quote=markos]I'm going to go dig up a couple of my favorite quotes and radio shows by Dr. Harley on this subject for you to read while you're waiting for Dr. Chalmers' response.

That's the magic that I have seen: when my wife is in love, her sexual feelings follow. When she is not in love, making love to me feels off to her; it feels like I am using her, it feels like sex is all about my needs and not about her, etc.
So I hope this encourages you, MrAlias: just keep walking down this path, keep steadily making love bank deposits and learning to avoid love bank withdrawals, and practice these new habits until they are ironclad and you are doing them all the time without thinking, and there is a 90% chance that at some point, you will know when your wife crosses the romantic love threshold, because suddenly those problems from past experiences will become much less of an issue.

One key thing to realize about passing the love bank threshold is that it is sudden, not gradual. One day, the balance is not quite at the threshold, and she tolerates you. The next day, you've made just a couple more deposits more, and Dr. Harley says men wake up and it's like they are married to a different woman.

Dr: Steve you need to Plan A your W for 2 years.
Steve: nah uh. No Way. I can't do that.
Dr: Sure. You can. It's like training for a marathon.

The education part regarding MB is tough for me. I buy into this program (learning more every day) but she doesn't.

I wanted to comment on this. Dr. Harley has said that there is still a LOT of hope for a marriage where the husband buys in and the wife does not. If you buy in and follow the program, if you are extremely consistent and effective with your love bank deposits and you eliminate the withdrawals, you are very likely to see her feelings change and then her beliefs change to match.

My guess is that he's starting with ENs because he's decided you are the one who's a bigger danger to the marriage right now if your needs go unmet.

Every day I come here and SMILE.

That is my hope. I thought I was there before but evidentally I was falling short of the mark.

Interestingly the Dr is starting with our ENs. I know it�s important to get them out there but I�m thinking there are some LBs that I need to eliminate and doing that is what is going to be important for my wife to experience.
Tonight I have to communicate how I want my needs met and she�s heard these all before � time and time again ... I don�t think she�s going to be all that intrigued hearing me lay out exactly what and when and how often I want and need something. We are getting along quite well I�d almost rather I start with something that shows her some benefit. Hopefully there are some ENs she needs immediately so I can show her that benefit.

Hello Markos,

I listen to the show on average about 3 or 4 times a week. I missed the last few as things have been hectic. Currently I've been doing about 45 minutes of reading each day in the Harley books. I�m into the LB book now.

Update on my prior questions to you: After speaking to Dr J. it was decided that we would continue forward with our plan and hope that my wife is one of the 9 out of 10 where SF issues disappear. If she's not we'll cross that bridge when we get there.

We shared our ENs Monday night. It was interesting how few things she asked for for each one of her ENs. Affection: Text me once a day to ask how she's doing. That�s it and that�s what I had already been doing in the past say a year or more ago and also what I started doing again about a week and a half ago. So her statement was an I Love It When statement not an I Would Love It If statement. My wife says she�s just not that needy. Dr J. said she�s going to help her add more to her list. I can and want to do more.

Rocks in a River: You find yourself on the bank of a wide river. It is too wide to jump across, and yet you still need to cross it. What do you do? You start picking up rocks and throwing them into the river. (These rocks are each small affectionate thing you do for your W). For the first 499 rocks, you see the rock hit the water, and then it dissapears. These rocks are sinking and landing on the bottom of the river. Eventually you get to rock #500 and it hits the water and part of it is sticking up above the surface. You now realize you are getting somewhere. You can finally see progress. For the first 499 rocks, you knew they were stacking up, but you had no proof other than common sense telling you that they were building up. We have to approach our relationships now as if every piece of affection is one of those rocks. We will not see any progress until a number of rocks have been thrown. However, just because we are not seeing these first 499 rocks does not mean they are not having an impact. Believe that they are, because they are.

the first is one used by the poster DoormatNoMore;

Creating romantic love after infidelity (aka "healing") is like creating a new island by chucking buckets of sand in a lake. It's going to take a lot of sand before it begins to peek above the water. Wind, waves, rain, and storms will wash that peak away, but you have to keep chucking buckets of sand.

...

she has wrapped herself in a protective shell. There are small cracks in that shell where some light can get in. You are tossing grains of rice at this shell, hoping to give her the nourishment she needs. If you throw only a single grains, or only small amounts (not keeping up with UA, not meeting ENs) they are not likely to fall through the small cracks.

However, if you throw HANDFULS (20+ hours of UA time, becoming expert at meeting her EN's, adhering to EP's), then some grains can slip through the cracks and give her the nourishment she needs to go forward.

She is STUCK in that cave, sir. And your actions put her there. She cannot simply decide to come out. Your action is what will free her.

If I provide her with 1 AH do I break it up for her so she isn't overwhelmed or do I simply say I want you to eat better and that would mean cut down on the soda, treats and candies. I would encourage her to try to eat a good breakfast each day.

Thoughts?

It's unattractive to me to watch her consume so much that is bad for her. It becomes even more annoying later when she states how she doesn't feel well or that's she's fat and hates her shape.

I will do my best to simply state it is unattractive to me and I�d like us to work together to find a solution.

On those nights when she has a stomach ache or a headache I'll express my concern that there may be something seriously wrong and she'll say "I don't have that many". Last time it happened I asked if we could track it. She looked at me with a puzzled look. "It isn't that often. Why would you want to do that?".

I stated this when communicating our ENs. An Attractive Spouse: I would love it if we could create a lifestyle that would promote healthy choices in what we eat and drink. Creating a lifestyle that promotes health, for both of us, is important and attractive to me.

MrA, are you assuming that the pop makes her feel bad and makes her want to avoid sex rather than not being in love? I think you are blaming the wrong thing. Because if this is the case, then the real problem is that she avoids sex, not that she drinks pop. Diet pop isn't known for causing stomachaches. Sure, aspartame causes headaches in some people but it can't be assumed that is the issue.

It drives me crazy when my husband makes assumptions like that. It falls in the category of educating your spouse which is a lovebuster.

The way I would handle this is tell her that it is upsetting to you when she doesn't want intimacy. But you are both working on a plan to resolve that: falling in love. Falling in love will make her more willing to make love, NOT eliminating diet pop.

Do you blame the pop for her avoidance of SF?

[ But to answer your other question we have started together down a path of better eating but she continues to skip breakfast, drink the soda and eat the candies.

I have had a headache almost every day for the last two weeks and what has changed is that I�m using Splenda instead of sugar and some of the recipes call for this as a sugar substitute.

Did she enthusiastically agree to that change? How well did you use the POJA on those changes? Because people don't usually abandon changes about which they are enthusiastic.

It could be true that Splenda gives you headaches, but could your headaches be from sugar withdrawal? Were you in the habit of eating sugar daily? Sugar is a very addictive, toxic substance and when I stopped eating it, I thought I was going to die for about a week. I had a headache and a pounding heart and had trouble sleeping. I didn't realize what a nasty, toxic substance it was until I went 6 months without it and then ate it again. I felt so sick I had to go to bed. Then I realized that was how I used to feel all the time when I ate sugar! I tell anyone who doesn't believe this to go without sugar for a few months and then eat it again. You will find out fast how nasty sugar is!

[
We didn't discuss her eating habits as part of POJA. I just communicated these ENs to her Monday so we haven't worked through them yet.

The new eating plan her and I started was a couple of weeks ago where we explored some options, through a co-worker I found this one, I showed it to her and she agreed it looked good. But we didn't discuss the other items you and I are talking about here.

Our homework for this week is to read up on the POJA, the Give and the Taker and the Guidelines for Negotiation.

I had never heard of a sugar withdrawal before. I�m not much of a sugar user. I felt great this morning after having no Splenda on Thanksgiving and now after having a cup of decaf with Splenda in it that same headache is back. I talked to my wife about it and we�re going to stop using it for a few days to see if my symptoms clear. If they do then I�m going to try using it for a bit and see if they return and if so stop again. Headaches are hard to diagnose so it could very well be something else � but so far everything points to the Splenda.

Would you have a problem with her eating habits if she did a good job of meeting your needs? I am concerned about you trying to impose your own perspective on her which is a disrespectful judgment. My H and I are just like you and your wife, but in reverse.

I am a health nut; I eat healthy and work out. He would eat brownies for his supper every day if he could! He has bags of candy stashed all over the place. But I don't try to educate him. But then it doesn't bother me because he meets my needs. None of his health habits interfere in our marriage in any way.

Some of the biggest lovebusters I have ever made against him was trying to dictate his food choices. I stopped doing it and our marriage improved.

I get the sense that you have categorized her poor eating habits as an annoying habit because you believe that this is the cause of her unwillingness to have sex with you. You think this because she has told you she has a headache or stomachache to avoid intimacy. I think that was the excuse, and that the real reason is the OBVIOUS and typical reason, which is that she is not emotionally attached to you.

Do you typically put sugar in your coffee in the morning? Does aspartame give you a headache? Another good artificial sweetener that many like is Truvia. You might like that better.

[

My #3 EN I listed was an Attractive Spouse. My wife had always been a thin person up until about a year or so ago. This last year that has changed. She used to be able to eat like this because she had a high metabolism. She was able to keep the pounds off, but now that has definitely changed. My drive is declining as is her attractiveness to me. Sort of a double whammy for me ... if you will.

So maybe a better option to broach this is to be open and honest about my ENs. I loved it when she was thinner. She�s a very pretty girl who had a wonderful figure. And I miss that about her. She still looks good to me but not as good as before.

Still I am concerned about her health. I�d like her to be healthy especially later on when her and I are retired. I�d like to go do things. I hope we�re both healthy enough to do that. Later on RC is going to be a big EN for me � probably her too.

In the final analysis, disrespectful judgments represent an effort to force our spouses to give us what we want in marriage, but it's often cleverly disguised. Instead of making an outright demand, we present our problem as if it were really our spouse's personal shortcoming. We try to "straighten out" our spouse in an effort to get our way.

At the time we rationalize our disrespect by convincing ourselves that we're doing our spouses a big favor, to lift them from the darkness of their confusion into the light of our superior perspective. If they would only follow our advice, we tell ourselves, they could avoid many of life's pitfalls-and we would also get what we want.

A disrespectful judgment occurs whenever one spouse tries to impose a system of values and beliefs on the other. When a husband tries to force his point of view on his wife, he's just asking for trouble. When a wife assumes that her own views are right and her husband is woefully misguided -- and tells him so -- she enters a minefield.

I express my concern about her health when she�s feeling ill instead of communicating that I think it�s the way she eats. I have raised my concerns to her about her eating habits at other moments throughout our day not just in the context of the bedroom.

Would it be safe to ask her if she thought it was her eating habits that create these headaches and stomach aches and to explore that as an option?

This week should be a good week. It is the week she begins to be open and honest with me about the things I do that she says I am not aware of that destroy her love for me. Through that process I will do whatever it takes to stop doing those things. I am excited about this new opportunity to improve the R and I hope I can do enough to gain that emotional attachment.

Mel, I am happy we are going through the program too. I am enjoying the process and look forward to the ways in which I can enrich our R. I sure hope this is the answer. I hope I can get my side of the street clean.

[

Mel, I am happy we are going through the program too. I am enjoying the process and look forward to the ways in which I can enrich our R. I sure hope this is the answer. I hope I can get my side of the street clean.

Men do a lot more to irritate women than vice versa. Did you know that? Dr Harley said on the radio show that he can't think of a THING Joyce does that bothers him but she is always bringing up things he does that bothers her!

Bravo to you for losing the weight, tiredwife!

Men do a lot more to irritate women than vice versa. Did you know that? Dr Harley said on the radio show that he can't think of a THING Joyce does that bothers him but she is always bringing up things he does that bothers her!

It really does bother you that she sleeps in? Does it really?

[
We�re early into this program but so far it appears my wife is one of the 9 out of 10.

Congrats on the 17 pounds tiredwife. That is no easy task.

My wife and I are just a couple of weeks into a new way of eating. So far the scale has only moved slightly for me but I'll take slow and steady. I'm done with the quick weight loss programs. We're focusing on these healthier, lower calorie meals that everyone is eating. So no more having to go it alone like I've done about 5 times prior.

The eating plan is becoming a part of our UA and RC time. I've been making most of the meals which is cool as it fulfills her DS need. She's been heavily involved in the planning and purchasing of meals.

It feels great to be doing this as a team.

I told Mrs. Alias last night that I am SO MUCH HAPPIER than I have been in a long time. She responded she was glad.

Melody. I�m cracking a bit of a smile.

I told Mrs. Alias last night that I am SO MUCH HAPPIER than I have been in a long time. She responded she was glad.

Melody. I�m cracking a bit of a smile.

I'm dying to ask... does your wife sleep on your shoulder again? I remember that was one thing that gave me so much hope back in the day, to read that and remind myself it is possible to live in peace like that. If not, it's okay, I know you have a lot of ways to express on the outside the peace in your hearts

I want to provide Telly with some info that I think may pertain to her situation but before I submit a post I want to list out the 2 different types of resentment that Dr. Harley talks about. My W and I are to re-read that section in his book but we were unable (in the 5 minutes we had) to find it. Does someone have that part of the book handy they could post? And where can we find it?

Why would any of us hurt the one we promised to love and cherish?
Lack of empathy is at the core of the problem.
One of the most important consequences of our emotional isolation is that we cannot feel the way we affect others. And that creates the temptation to hurt others because in doing so we don't feel the pain we cause. If we were connected emotionally to others we would be far less tempted to do anything thoughtless, gaining at someone else's expense. That's because in so doing, we would be hurting ourselves as well.
Lack of empathy helps makes thoughtlessness possible. Since we don't feel what other's feel, we tend to minimize the negative effects we have on others, and consider our thoughtlessness to be benign.

I�m sure this example is a work in progress for her and I and it will be some time before we find the final solution. But I feel better just knowing we�re working together to find something we both will want to live with.

I�m often asked whether there�s a most common issue facing those who seek therapy, and usually I respond by saying that there really isn�t one issue that stands out, per se. However, there seems to be a common root to a significant number of issues that I help clients with, that is, �conflict avoidance�. The avoidance of conflict, both in the immediate- and long-term, not only has the ability to undermine the foundation for any healthy relationship, it more often than not eventually leads directly to its undoing. Unfortunately, this usually occurs with the direct �approval� of the avoider. In other words, if given the choice, some people would much rather see a relationship dissolve before their very eyes than risk facing the potential pain, awkwardness, or anxiety that often accompanies the act of being fully present and honest with another human being.

Couple�s therapy is often a place where this phenomenon is most evident. In fact, I can�t count the number of times that couples have stated with pride that throughout the course of their relationship they rarely, if ever, argued, as if that fact represented the gold standard for a healthy relationship. Unfortunately, it isn�t. It may be a relatively quiet and (externally) peaceful relationship, but it certainly isn�t a healthy one, primarily for two reasons: 1) it�s void of the full spectrum of human emotions, some of which include frustration, anger, and resentment, and 2) the entire relationship is based upon the avoider�s fear. Yet, upon hearing their declaration of �non-arguing�, I almost hate to disappoint them when they clearly hold it such high regard. But it�s typically never too long before I burst that balloon, and let them know that perhaps if they�d argued a bit more (in healthy and respectful ways, of course) they just might not be sitting in an office like mine.

Conflict avoidance, as is the case for conflict confronters, is a communication style that is often formed within the family of origin. For example, an adult who was raised by at least one parent who was a conflict avoider, may have learned early in life that avoiding conflict seemed to work best for that parent. (Note, however, that the concept of �worked best� doesn�t necessarily imply �healthiest�, rather it may just mean what seemed emotionally or physically �safest� for the individual under their particular circumstances.) Another scenario where a conflict avoidance style might be adopted early in life is where a child is parented by one, or both, parents who were conflict confronters � confronters who may have elicited a great deal of fear on the part of the child. Consequently, as a survival mechanism, the child will often do anything to avoid creating additional conflict within the family and will, in many cases, adopt the role of a �people pleaser� in childhood, as well as in their adult relationships, thus, becoming what we know as a �co-dependent� or �self-sacrificer� in the process.

Regardless of the origin of conflict avoidance, one thing is certain: both the avoider, and those around them, pay a huge price for the behavior � and often, as I said previously, the price paid may mean the end to many relationships over their lifetime. By definition, their relationships (other than casual acquaintances) tend to be time-limited, since it�s inevitable that all people in relationships will at one point or other experience conflict. And, if it�s not dealt with appropriately, or avoided all together, the only option is to remain silent, hoping the problem will go away by itself which, of course it never does. Consequently, the relationship dies either physically (it ends, and the people part), or emotionally (where people may stay together but where little remains between them). Regardless, it�s not that the conflict avoider is unpleasant to be around. On the contrary. The avoider tends to be on the surface, at least, easy-going, flexible, and eager to please. It�s wonderful having people like that in one�s life since one thing�s for sure, they won�t cause any conflict. But, underneath, most of these people experience huge amounts of resentment, even rage, because by sacrificing their �voice� � both literally and figuratively � their lives are often out of their own hands since they simply won�t �beg to differ�. As such, many end up experiencing lives so very different than they had originally hoped for (yet refused to fight for). Consequently, by honouring their commitment to �keep peace at any price�, most of their negative emotions are merely swallowed, at least until they find they can no longer do so successfully. At that point, the emotions of the avoider either erupt overtly or, more typically, they engage in the only form of anger they consider safest: passive aggression � another relationship killer.

So what to do? Well, if you�re an avoider, and you�re no longer willing to pay the price of seeing important relationships with others (and, by the way, with yourself, too) wither and die, then the first step is to find your voice, again, both literally and figuratively. Find the many ways in which you �hide� in relationships, and decide that you�re going to find the courage to begin speaking up, to begin showing up in your relationships, to begin to be yourself more fully. You have the right, after all, and, in doing so, you might be surprised at the freedom it offers you, a freedom that you�ve missed out on your entire life. Yes, it�ll probably mean introducing more conflict into your life, but once you experience the freedom of your own voice, you may never decide to sell yourself out ever again. And, because of that decision you�ll no doubt need to learn the sorts of tools that will help you deal with conflict. But that�s the second step. The first step is to begin speaking up, no longer being the �people pleaser�. In the �pleaser�s� place will stand a fully present and emotionally tangible person with a unique voice, who will be finally known by others, and, again, most importantly, by themselves.

So, again, how to begin? Get off the proverbial fence, take a stance, find your voice, and then�offer an opinion!

I�m often asked whether there�s a most common issue facing those who seek therapy, and usually I respond by saying that there really isn�t one issue that stands out, per se. However, there seems to be a common root to a significant number of issues that I help clients with, that is, �conflict avoidance�. The avoidance of conflict, both in the immediate- and long-term, not only has the ability to undermine the foundation for any healthy relationship, it more often than not eventually leads directly to its undoing. Unfortunately, this usually occurs with the direct �approval� of the avoider. In other words, if given the choice, some people would much rather see a relationship dissolve before their very eyes than risk facing the potential pain, awkwardness, or anxiety that often accompanies the act of being fully present and honest with another human being.

Couple�s therapy is often a place where this phenomenon is most evident. In fact, I can�t count the number of times that couples have stated with pride that throughout the course of their relationship they rarely, if ever, argued, as if that fact represented the gold standard for a healthy relationship. Unfortunately, it isn�t. It may be a relatively quiet and (externally) peaceful relationship, but it certainly isn�t a healthy one, primarily for two reasons: 1) it�s void of the full spectrum of human emotions, some of which include frustration, anger, and resentment, and 2) the entire relationship is based upon the avoider�s fear. Yet, upon hearing their declaration of �non-arguing�, I almost hate to disappoint them when they clearly hold it such high regard. But it�s typically never too long before I burst that balloon, and let them know that perhaps if they�d argued a bit more (in healthy and respectful ways, of course) they just might not be sitting in an office like mine.

Conflict avoidance, as is the case for conflict confronters, is a communication style that is often formed within the family of origin. For example, an adult who was raised by at least one parent who was a conflict avoider, may have learned early in life that avoiding conflict seemed to work best for that parent. (Note, however, that the concept of �worked best� doesn�t necessarily imply �healthiest�, rather it may just mean what seemed emotionally or physically �safest� for the individual under their particular circumstances.) Another scenario where a conflict avoidance style might be adopted early in life is where a child is parented by one, or both, parents who were conflict confronters � confronters who may have elicited a great deal of fear on the part of the child. Consequently, as a survival mechanism, the child will often do anything to avoid creating additional conflict within the family and will, in many cases, adopt the role of a �people pleaser� in childhood, as well as in their adult relationships, thus, becoming what we know as a �co-dependent� or �self-sacrificer� in the process.

Regardless of the origin of conflict avoidance, one thing is certain: both the avoider, and those around them, pay a huge price for the behavior � and often, as I said previously, the price paid may mean the end to many relationships over their lifetime. By definition, their relationships (other than casual acquaintances) tend to be time-limited, since it�s inevitable that all people in relationships will at one point or other experience conflict. And, if it�s not dealt with appropriately, or avoided all together, the only option is to remain silent, hoping the problem will go away by itself which, of course it never does. Consequently, the relationship dies either physically (it ends, and the people part), or emotionally (where people may stay together but where little remains between them). Regardless, it�s not that the conflict avoider is unpleasant to be around. On the contrary. The avoider tends to be on the surface, at least, easy-going, flexible, and eager to please. It�s wonderful having people like that in one�s life since one thing�s for sure, they won�t cause any conflict. But, underneath, most of these people experience huge amounts of resentment, even rage, because by sacrificing their �voice� � both literally and figuratively � their lives are often out of their own hands since they simply won�t �beg to differ�. As such, many end up experiencing lives so very different than they had originally hoped for (yet refused to fight for). Consequently, by honouring their commitment to �keep peace at any price�, most of their negative emotions are merely swallowed, at least until they find they can no longer do so successfully. At that point, the emotions of the avoider either erupt overtly or, more typically, they engage in the only form of anger they consider safest: passive aggression � another relationship killer.

So what to do? Well, if you�re an avoider, and you�re no longer willing to pay the price of seeing important relationships with others (and, by the way, with yourself, too) wither and die, then the first step is to find your voice, again, both literally and figuratively. Find the many ways in which you �hide� in relationships, and decide that you�re going to find the courage to begin speaking up, to begin showing up in your relationships, to begin to be yourself more fully. You have the right, after all, and, in doing so, you might be surprised at the freedom it offers you, a freedom that you�ve missed out on your entire life. Yes, it�ll probably mean introducing more conflict into your life, but once you experience the freedom of your own voice, you may never decide to sell yourself out ever again. And, because of that decision you�ll no doubt need to learn the sorts of tools that will help you deal with conflict. But that�s the second step. The first step is to begin speaking up, no longer being the �people pleaser�. In the �pleaser�s� place will stand a fully present and emotionally tangible person with a unique voice, who will be finally known by others, and, again, most importantly, by themselves.

So, again, how to begin? Get off the proverbial fence, take a stance, find your voice, and then�offer an opinion!