Markos, about the LoveBusters.

I get that. I'm not saying I know for a fact I'm successful at eliminating them but I'm aware that what my wife feels is how she feels and I have no right to question or convince her otherwise. I learned that long ago. Hopefully I'm aware enough that I'm not stepping all over that LB.

The education part regarding MB is tough for me. I buy into this program (learning more every day) but she doesn't. I try to phrase my beliefs in that form ... here's what I believe is true for me. It's my hope that she listens and gives consideration to what I'm saying because if she were to begin to trust and truly believe this plan is the plan to a sustainable, romantic love we'd eliminate a large obstacle. I am trying to be careful to use "I" statements and let her know what feels true for me ... not what she could/should be doing or believing.

We had another convo yesterday where we were discussing where our time with Dr J is going. My wife again said I don't buy into it. I don't believe I have to do everything everyone says or say everything in just the right way to have a good marriage. I didn't reply tempting as it was to say something. I figured I'd say the wrong thing and knowing we were meeting with Dr J later I would address it with her then. And I did and she said she's still on board so let's just keep going.

I opened up to her and let her know how bad my withdrawal had gotten. She informed me she thinks our M problems have to do with my own internal struggles. I explained my thoughts to her. That while I am struggling internally with things like my weight, physical ailments and my drop in drive those aren't the only reasons I'm unhappy in our M. I reiterated the same statement I've been saying to her for years ... "While you try to meet my most important need it has never been what I consider to be acceptable to me. It's too infrequent. I cannot wait 3 weeks to 3 months to have sex and feel I'm being taken care of."

Something my wife said then, albeit I was taken aback, gave me hope. She said she too had become withdrawn and that I too for some time hadn't been meeting her needs. I figured back a year or more ago and prior to that that I was doing well because that is what she said when I asked the question "What can I do better?". She'd reply nothing. I'm relatively happy.

Regardless, I now have hope because Dr J is taking us down a path where we practice exactly what it is our partner needs. So while I felt a bit duped or confused by her statement I realize it doesn't matter. The past is that past and I now have an opportunity to get it right this time. While depressed knowing there is conflict coming I'm excited because conflict is the only way back to intimacy. Hopefully by doing this program and me getting it right this time we will create a lifestyle that is conducive to a sustainable, romantic love. That saying the right things and doing what it takes to make each other happy and working together to protect each other and our M is really the right way for a marriage to work.

To your point Markos I can't wait to get to the LB communications because I think that is where I may learn a lot more of what I do that kills the romance for my wife.

But that is all in due time. Right now we're doing the ENs, trying to make "I'd love it if" statements and we're trying to recognize and change the LBs we know of.

Have you had a check-up lately with a primary care doctor? From some of the things you have mentioned I think you may have an issue with low testosterone. Very common and very easy to take care of it. If you do end up needing T therapy you will be amazed at how your energy level and outlook will change. You will have a spring in your step again and things that seemed hopeless will no longer seem so overwhelming. Increased T is also really helpful with exercising and getting in shape. If your T level is low it is nearly impossible to gain muscle or lose fat. My hubby started T therapy several months ago and the improvements have been amazing. He was in a "fog" and had kinda checked out on our marriage and life in general. Now he is back to being the man I fell in love with , no more depressive/funky state. I think it would be worth your while to have it checked.
Have you ever asked your wife what makes her feel loved the most? Like does she feel more loved if you bring her flowers, fix the dishwasher, or by doing a date night/spending quality time with her? A lot of times if women don't get their most important needs met it is difficult for her to be concerned with your needs. Not that she is doing it to be spiteful, it is often a subconscious thing that makes her feel unattracted to you. If you somehow find out how to make her feel more loved I think she will naturally be more attracted to you and want more sex. Stick with your plans to eat healthier and work out. **EDIT** Good luck!

HUH? **EDIT** Do tell, Better2gether. Are you versed in this phenomenon?

Better, Thank you for the post. I have stated to my wife that I need to get in, not just for a T check, but for a regular physical as well.

It's time for me to stop procrastinating and do this. If I call now I can get in with my practitioner early next year .... yikes. He's a very popular guy. That works out well though as getting to the doctor is difficult to do right now as I've burned all my paid time off hours.

I still have some drive, some energy so it isn't an emergency thing that I get in. I'm still doing my 45 minute exercise routine for my back. And now that her and I are back being rather affectionate I wouldn't turn her down if she initiated SF.

I will take some time to make that call.

Oh and as far as what she needs to feel loved that will come out through our sessions with Dr. Chalmer. Her and I have to share our top 5 ENs this week along with some "I'd love it if" statements.

My wife informed me that I haven't been meeting her needs so I look forward to the opportunity to be a better husband.

It is a pretty common occurrence @maritalbliss . ***EDIT***

That's awesome. ***EDIT*** You won't waste efforts on things that don't really matter and will be able to get on the same page in your relationship. Glad you plan to get the physical. If they have a waiting list try to get on it, people cancel constantly this time of year. Once any medical issues are addressed the other things get so much easier to fix. I think all of your efforts are really going to pay off.

I had an interesting talk with my wife last night. She revealed something to me that I hadn't heard her reveal before.

As she puts it she has trouble with SF because she continually hears this message in her head that says guys only want one thing and in her life that's what she's experienced. She said I was the exception of course and that she was sorry and that she was trying.

I thanked her for sharing and let her know I'd be willing to do anything it would take to help her squash those thoughts when it came to being with me. I stopped short of recommending she see someone about it. She was quite upset and it breaks my heart to see her upset.

We also talked a little bit about the concepts of MB and she expressed her fear that it was going to make her give up things she loved to do ... like spend time with her sister and her horses. I put her mind at ease best I could by discussing the concept of win/win compromise but also informed her that I wasn't the right one to educate her on MB principles after it was apparent she could only see sacrifice coming. I encouraged her to read the books so the good Dr could explain the policies and principles.

It was a good talk. I thanked her for being open and honest and told her that that was very important to me in our relationship.

Now I'm wondering ... what should I do with this information regarding these negative thoughts she has?

Recommend she see someone?
Recommend she, at least, mention it to Dr J?
Mention it to Dr J myself?
Do nothing and just continue on with our current plan?

Never mind I sent this on to Dr J. Hopefully she doesn't mind me emailing her with these questions and concerns I have.

I think Dr. J is your best path. Please let us know what she says.

MrA, my first thought is, it's great that your wife was able to talk to you about these feelings and for you to receive them non-judgmentally. Absolutely HUGE. The conversation probably deposited a lot of Love Bank units in your account in her Love Bank. This is probably a big step down the road towards her being in love with you.

Just the talking about it is great! Investigating, informing, and understanding your spouse is one of Dr. Harley's four Friends of good conversation. And conversation is just about the most important emotional need in the world to winning back most withdrawn wives.

I know that's hard for men, because we hear the problem and we want to solve the problem. And when the problem involves us, it hits really close to home and it's easy to get emotional, and from there to irrational, and from there to love busting. Nothing strikes fear into a man's heart more than "I'm not really sure how enthusiastic I am about sex..." So the fact that you kept your cool and let her talk about her feelings shows you are really doing a good job at this.

And I have good news for you. In Dr. Harley's experience, almost all sexual problems simply vanish once the wife is in love with her husband. He's treated couples where the wife was abused, molested, victimized by incest in childhood, etc., and he's seen sexual relationships normalize once the wife is in love with the husband. He says it happens nine times out of ten.

I will share my experience: Prisca and I have been in and out of love a lot, sad to say (and I'll just say that as long as we practice the habits of Marriage Builders, we stay in love!) and during that time, Prisca's sex drive has ranged all the way from pure aversion to can't get enough. It really is true that when my account in her love bank crosses the romantic love threshold, sexual problems vanish.

I'm going to go dig up a couple of my favorite quotes and radio shows by Dr. Harley on this subject for you to read while you're waiting for Dr. Chalmers' response.

Okay, here is the first article from Dr. Harley that I have in mind:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5013_qa.html


The basic approach Dr. Harley uses to marital problem solving, he calls "concentric circles," meaning he starts with the smallest "circle," the smallest and easiest solution to the problem, and expands out from there if necessary. So in the case of sexual problems, the first thing he does is fixes the relationship: get the couple following the Policy of Joint Agreement (and the Policy of Undivided Attention), and nine times out of ten, the sexual problems disappear. In the other 10% of cases, he does have means for treating that that he would move on to.

In my next post, I'll provide a radio show from Dr. Harley that explains WHY sexual problems disappear when the relationship becomes good.

This is one of my all time favorite radio shows. Be sure and give it a listen. And if you can't listen to the radio shows, let's round up BrainHurts; she is good at troubleshooting that for people (I think if you can't listen you basically have to switch browsers or upgrade Flash or something):

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=68


That's the magic that I have seen: when my wife is in love, her sexual feelings follow. When she is not in love, making love to me feels off to her; it feels like I am using her, it feels like sex is all about my needs and not about her, etc.

So I hope this encourages you, MrAlias: just keep walking down this path, keep steadily making love bank deposits and learning to avoid love bank withdrawals, and practice these new habits until they are ironclad and you are doing them all the time without thinking, and there is a 90% chance that at some point, you will know when your wife crosses the romantic love threshold, because suddenly those problems from past experiences will become much less of an issue.

One key thing to realize about passing the love bank threshold is that it is sudden, not gradual. One day, the balance is not quite at the threshold, and she tolerates you. The next day, you've made just a couple more deposits more, and Dr. Harley says men wake up and it's like they are married to a different woman. He's had men call him and ask if he thinks their wives are taking hormones or something. Then, the love bank balance dips right back down below the threshold, and she goes back to merely tolerating her husband. And that up and down behavior may continue for awhile until he builds a big enough balance in her love bank that random dips are still not going down below that threshold for romantic love.

Here is my favorite radio show of all time, where Dr. Harley describes this. I'm not sure what segment it is in, but it's very encouraging, and it agrees with my experience:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3324
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3325
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3326
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3327

Hey Markos,

Thanks for the radio broadcasts. I am able to listen to them on my DROID. Listening to the first one now.

I'll respond to your other posts when I have more time to type.

Dr: Steve you need to Plan A your W for 2 years.
Steve: nah uh. No Way. I can't do that.
Dr: Sure. You can. It's like training for a marathon.

I agree. I thanked her several times for being honest with me. I fear there is more she hasn�t told me. I fear it because it means she doesn�t trust me enough to be honest with me. Which means I�ve failed her somewhere along the line. BUT we�re on a new path and hopefully those will be revealed.
Yes. I think we�re on our way. I�ve certainly tried to be more open with her the last week. Using I would love it if statements where I provide feedback that is positive (void of negatives). As a matter of fact I just did that about 10 minutes ago and she reciprocated immediately. What a nice feeling.
Keeping my cool hasn�t been the problem. Being open and honest and providing an environment where we can move forward in a positive direction has been my lacking. Her and I clam up, bottle it up until one day �. Withdrawal.
I so hope so. I have this feeling, this vision that I will move heaven and earth for this girl if I can have my needs met.
I listened to those broadcasts and that is a good story. Boy I�d love to hear that things worked out for Steve.

Just the fact she is walking down this path with me this time is very encouraging. I do wish for a change in our R. I�d love to use all the tools provided here to create and then protect our love. POJA and PORH are going to be huge for us. I can�t wait for the day when my W sees the beauty in the Win/Win and realizes that sacrifice in a marriage is a phrase that should never be practiced. I fear she�s been sacrificing for far too long.
For me that day will be the day that SF is no longer something that she avoids. She does so well at providing many of the other ENs I have (Affection, Attractive Spouse, Domestic Support).
Lately I have a hard time feeling attractive. To have her avoid SF gives me the gut reaction that I�m just not attractive. I associate that to my own feelings of an attractive spouse (visual) of course not what she�d view as attractive. I know I�m overweight even though I carry it well, I guess. There isn�t much up top for hair anymore. I feel feeble due to these nagging physical ailments and it�s depressing because the therapies haven�t really turned them around. I�m trying to block those thoughts though because those have nothing to do with how she views me.

If our R flourishes some of those issues won�t be so disconcerting to me.

Thanks for the replies Markos

The Doctor is a good motivator.