It's been about 20 months since I've posted on this site. I took a look around and noticed some of the veterans are still around. I hope everyone is doing well.

It's been a rough few months for me. I have a few stresses that have been making life a little disappointing. Work has been hectic and I've been working a ton of hours. I continue to struggle staying in shape due to poor eating habits and am so wiped because of working so much I don't have the energy to do much about it.

Life with my wife continues to be more of the same. Little to no sex. All kinds of reasons why and not all of them are her fault (pneumonia, bruised ribs, other ailments). The end line though is that for the last couple years even though we've had long, serious discussions about it ... not much changes.

I decided it was time to come back because I'm getting so depressed about these things that I'm struggling. It's come to the point now where I've lost interest in my wife. Sex with her is unappealing ... or better yet feels painful. I'd rather just avoid it entirely then deal with the ups and downs of hoping things are going to change and possibly get better.

I told her last August I was concerned and that I was hurting because of the lack of sexual activity and that mostly I felt hurt because there's been no acknowledgement of the infrequency. Like the big white elephant she'll avoid even discussing it and that's what hurts even though I've told her its what hurts me most.

She's done well providing other forms of affection ... but evidentally for me its the sex and the lack of acknowledgement that is the most important. She obviously heard me wrong back in August and although other attempts at communication have taken place ... well nothing's changing.

Anyways I've got my head screwed on backwards. I'm upset with most everything about her and really don't feel in love with her anymore. I fear what we all know comes from this and I don't want to go there. So far I've avoided those situations. For the first time that I can ever remember in my marriage to her I turned her down when she offered last night. It's been about 3 months since we last had sex and I just am not interested ... mind you I'm interested in sex but just not with her.

I really want to have a good marriage and I want my kids to have a good family. So I'm not ready to give up but I also find myself just not caring enough or am afraid of more hurt that I'm not doing anything about it. Even worse is I spend my time being negative and depressed about my life.

I feel bad and I know most of my problem is I'm feeling sorry for myself. But it seems to be far easier than trying to make this marriage work. Now that I've lost interest in her I can only see things getting worse instead of better.

I figured I'd stop back in at MB so all the good people here could help me find some motivation ... I guess.

I feel I've lost my way.

Hi MrAlias! If you have tried and tried to implement this program on your own to no avail, I would try using the professional services at Marriage Builders. Many of us have gone to the weekend or used the counseling services with great results. For my marriage, I only got so far doing it on my own. We went to the MB weekend in 2007 and it made a huge difference.

I can see right off that the problem in your marriage is that your wife and you are not in love. I don't know how strictly you have implemented this program, but I do know that if you cut corners on crucial things like UA time and the POJA, that you are spinning your wheels. For example, Dr Harley says his program doesn't even work if you don't spend at least 15 hours of TRUE UA time per week. In your case it needs to be 25 to 30 just to create romantic love and 15 to maintain.

It's sad to see that you have been here for years and are still in the same predicament. But I am not surprised. There are others who have used this forum - for years - to discuss specific conflicts rather than implement this program. They are in the same boat as when they arrived.

This Harley quote came to mind when I read your post:

Hi Melody, nice to hear from you again.

I'm one of those unfortunates who has been unsuccessful getting my spouse on board or interested in attending a MB weekend.

We did go to individual and couples counseling about 5 years ago. Things improved some from a relationship standpoint and many of those things we improved still exist today.

My hours worked are certainly problematic to my ability to follow the guidelines. It hurts that she has a hobby (horses) that take her away for me and the family as well. We do spend time together but most of that time is attending our kid's sporting activities ... which right now takes up a LOT of time.

I think I'm tired of trying to push for what I need. I told her as much last August. Informed her I was losing interest and that if I stopped asking for sex she may want to be concerned. I haven't asked for sex since that August day.

She goes on with life like nothing's wrong. So even if I ask her to take the reigns she's not motivated enough to do so.

I suspect I will soon have to tell her the whole truth of where I'm at. I just hate those conversations because in the end all of our problems are my fault or unavoidable.

I just don't seem to have the strength like I used to.

MrAlias, this is why I am recommending counseling with Marriage Builders. Traditional marriage counseling is so destructive to marriages that I am not surprised that it did nothing to resolve your basic problem, which is a lack of romantic love. MC usually even counsels couples together which causes further erosion of love. Marriage counseling has a failure rate of 84% and marriage counselors have a higher divorce rate than the general population. They don't have the slightest idea how to save marriage. They probably addressed "communication" and did nothing to address the lack of love, which misses the point. A couple can learn to be great communicators and they still end up divorced if they are not in love.

The Harleys are completely and dramatically different. They focus on restoring the romantic love to your marriage, which fixes the sex problem. Communication is important, but it is much easier to communicate when you are in love. You didn't have trouble communicating when you were dating and in love.


That is why I am suggesting getting counseling with Steve Harley. Let him be the motivator. He doesn't counsel couples together anyway so you don't need her participation intially. He would tell you what to say to bring her on. It is in her best interest to have a romantic marriage but if she doesn't believe that is even possible she will have no motivation to try. If she speaks to Steve, he can show her a plan that would achieve that.

This is part of the basic problem. The marriage is your last priority, so naturally it suffers. It doesn't have to be this way, MrAlias. This program really does work if you use it. But in order to work, it has to be used in its entirety. It might seem like hard work, but its really not. It is hard work to have a bad marriage. Being in love is not hard work.

Thanks for the advice Melody.

The counselor we saw was very helpful and she definitely was a proponent of the MB concepts and the 5 love languages.

What was interesting was when my wife and I were doing counseling the counselor would actually tell my wife what her role in the marriage was. She would talk to her about how she could make a difference in our marriage. And my wife would come home from those sessions and initiate.

As far as "being in love isn't hard work" ... I guess I would disagree. It is very hard to continually put yourself out there only to be hurt. To try to speak to my wife about my pain and only have it turned around on me like it's all my fault is very difficult. It makes it very hard to tell her how I truly feel. It is far easier to simply tell myself I'm going to ride it out without sex and keep the family together until their on their own. I have been telling myself now for a couple of months I'm riding it out without sex and keep the family together until the kids are on their own.

When I last posted here things weren't horrible. Manageable. I thought we were making progress. But eventually things went back to normal ... with one major difference. Once I stopped asking for sex since August every 2 to 3 months she initiates. So things are different in that respect. I always had to ask before. I know she loves me and I know she's trying but she continually tries when its far too late and I'm already back to feeling upset and disgruntled.

She asks if there's anything she can do to help me ... she knows I'm not happy. I don't even have the strength to tell her the infrequent sessions aren't enough for me. And I'm actually hurt that I have to say, yet again, the same thing I've been saying for over a dozen or so years. "Uh Hello!?!".

I'm going to fix what I know I can fix. I'm going to try to get a hold of this project at work so I'm less stressed and hopefully work less and I'm going to try to get back into shape so I feel better about myself.

Ugh ... I feel like a stubborn little brat here but I'm just so fed up with it all. I used to be able to tolerate that she was a bit of a hoarder but now I've become intolerant of that. And I no longer am concerned that she's needed to go out and find work because I'm tired of not being able to have the things I want out of life.

What does a person do when they literally believe they've just had enough and if the marriage is going to be saved its up to her to save it?

She asks if there's anything she can do to help me ... she knows I'm not happy.

You tell her yes, she can give you a HJ every other day. And have regular lovemaking sessions with you once weekly. I would be specific on this.

And I no longer am concerned that she's needed to go out and find work because I'm tired of not being able to have the things I want out of life.

What is wrong with a woman working? I am working and my husband is out of work. Do you think I feel happy when I am working in the home office and he is in the family room watching TV? I had to put my foot down nicely and POJA this Friday.

I wrote in a notebook and showed it to him:" Do you think it is fair that I have to work while you watch TV?" He wrote:"No it is not fair" and "What do you need me to do to help you today?"

I then asked him to help me "today" and every day thereafter for the next 10 years! He has helped me every day since then.

About the sex, he wants less sex than I do. But is willing to meet my needs. So we vary the way we handle the sex problem, we have POJA'D that one. Either we have sex once weekly "no matter what" or I ask him to pleasure me whenever I want, every day if I want it...and he does not refuse.

What does a person do when they literally believe they've just had enough and if the marriage is going to be saved its up to her to save it?

If you have not POJA'd the sex issues and other issues, then you have not done enough to save the marriage..yet. If you are afraid to confront her due to her "silent treatment" or "yelling" or making you afraid she will be angry or leave you, then you are too chicken to bravely save your marriage.

You married a very manipulative,, selfish woman. That said, if you are brave enough you can be assertive and get your needs filled, learn to ALWAYS POJA things and quit letting her have WHAT SHE WANTS and NOT HAVE WHAT YOU WANT AND NEED in the marriage.

Why can she manipulate you for more kids, pets, horses, etc and she did not even have to work or care for all of these??? Are you nutz, friend?

Who would let thier wife steamroll over them and push for more and more stuff. You have relaxed your boundaries so far back that now you will have to be brave to reclaim all that lost ground and assert yourself so that she begins to have a smidgen of respect for you.

But the Five Love Languages does not have a plan to fall in love. This is why I am suggesting you try someone who is MB certified and knows this program and knows how to save marriages. I would use this program, MrAlias. Many of us have used this program and it has changed our marriages.

Go find the members on this board who are in love and happy. Ask them "how did you do it?" They will all tell you the same thing: they actually used this program. Don't ask those who are in bad marriages, MrAlias, they cannot help you.

Dr Harley has said that most couples that show up for his weekend program have one reluctant partner. His job is to motivate that spouse to engage. That is why I am suggesting you use Steve Harley to help you motivate your wife. Right now she has no motivation whatsoever becuase she sees no personal benefit and doesn't even believe she can be in love with you. Steve might be able to change that thinking.


If you are in love, you are not being hurt when you put yourself out there, though. I am in love and it is not hard work. What you are experiencing is very hard.

p.s. MrAlias, when you have been on this forum posting for 8 years to no avail and have been unable to improve the quality of your marriage on your own, I would suggest it is time to hire a professional.[one with a successful track record]

Posters on this board are not a substitute for professional help.

Good to see you Bubbles. It's been a long time.

There isn't a whole lot of POJA in my marriage. She's not on board with the principles of this site. However she is willing to discuss and work on the marriage.

POJA is almost impossible when you are not in love. I would take her willingness to work on the marriage and use this program, MrAlias. Don't start with POJA, start with falling in love. <----------------that is the problem.

My H was not on board with Marriage Builders either until he heard Dr Harley speak. Hearing Dr Harley frame his program in a way that benefited him, motivated him to get involved in the program.

Thanks Melody,

You are probably right. I have to ask myself if I want this marriage to work and if it is then I need to be more proactive in healing it. Coming here has helped some but still hasn't gotten me over the hump.

I just don't think I'm in love with her enough to even care if it's saved. I'm just way too frustrated with where I've ended up.

I would suspect she'll catch on here pretty quick ... heck I'm sure she knows already but she's just avoiding the inevitable. Maybe then she'll be ready to get on board and talk with someone.

Hi Mr. Alias

I agree with Melody that the coaching center would be a great benefit to you and your marriage.

I HIGHLY recommend that you call and schedule an appointment.

Ask your wife if she will join you for a few sessions, if she won't..... schedule them for yourself. You'll find some great answers to the problem you still face today!

And that is the point. We KNOW you are not in love. She is not in love either. The solution is to fall in love again.


Unforunately, coming here has not resolved your marriage problems. And that is understandable, because I think the veterans on this board historically spent alot of time discussing conflicts instead of implementing this program in its entirety. They used the forum for conflict resolution rather than creating romantic love.

MrAlias, for example, did you know this program does not work unless you spend 25-30 hours of undivided attention meeting the top 4 intimate emotional needs?

So all the counseling in the world would not overcome that lack.

Dr Harley refuses to even counsel a couple that won't commit to at least 15 hours of UA a week because he says "my program won't work without it."

I'm an avid horsewoman - many, many, many (Dare I say most?) horsewomen put their horse's first over their husbands. I don't know if this might be your issue. I was devoutly single when I rode professionally, got injured very badly, started dating my husband, and found I didn't have the singlemindness necessary to make it as a pro after I was married.

There's a reason why most successful, competitive horsewomen are single or divorced. It's the culture of our industry.

FWIW, I have two older horses and ride for pleasure now - I sometimes teach and sometimes feel an itch for a competition horse, but it's not worth the sacrifices to my marriage.

Hi MrAlias,
Have you read Harley's thee part articles on when to call it quits? Have you tried Plan B? Your wife has been neglectful over a long period of time and it make take a more extreme measure on your part to get her to take action. I sense you really don't have it in your heart to try. Indifference is a bad place to be in any marriage.

When To Call It Quits
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8111_quit.html

Gg

MrA, it's great to see you back; I'm sorry it's under this circumstance. Look at the bright side, you guys have your health, 3 beautiful kids, a beautiful home, work you enjoy. I'd say you two hit the jackpot You just have one hurdle left, a small hurdle that folks resolve every day. You're not starting from scratch; you have a lot of success to build on.

Yes, the kids' sports can get consuming. How about after this season is over, ask each kid to pick a favorite, and then figure out how to make it easier. Maybe your kids can carpool with other kids. Maybe it's something they can do as part of an afterschool program, and they can be done by 5. What do you see as the low-hanging fruit you can eliminate to make the week more fun and less stressful?

I have some great friends who were hoarders, and have had great success with freecycle.org. Folks will gladly come to your house at a time of your convenience and pick up your extra stuff, and then if you ever need it again, you can post to someone else trying to give away that thing. Or maybe your kids would have fun selling the extra stuff on ebay, who knows?

But like ML said, resolving the day-to-day stuff doesn't get you where you want to be. What do you all like to do for fun together? How about scheduling an hour or two a day this week?

Hello New,

Thanks for the feedback. I appreciate it.

I do try to look on the bright side. Trouble is when the negative items pile up sometimes it gets to be too much. Normally I can overlook the negative stuff but at times I feel overwhelmed.

Know this, I do not enjoy my job. Good news is there is a light at the end of the tunnel. The special project I'm working on comes to a close end of March and maybe then I'll get back to some semblance of normal work hours. I'm tired of working long days. Last week there were two days where I started at 6:30am and didn't get to bed until 4am ... the next day. To make matters worse I'm managing the project and we are WAY behind. So it's strikes a nerve for my pride and comfort level of retaining my position. It's quite stressful.

My beautiful home has become an eye sore to me. There is no room in the house that isn't cluttered. I've tried to stay on top of it because it's what I've wanted but working so many hours its too difficult. And now I'm so stressed when I do have a moment I simply need to veg. Don't get me wrong it isn't a hoarding nightmare but it's certainly unpleasant to see stuff lying about everywhere. I think our bedroom is the worst.

My wife has started a new part time job and has a lead on another. Bookkeeping work. If she gets this 2nd job she'll quit doing the parttime home daycare and then we're having a firesale this spring.

It is hard though. What she deems important or sentimental I consider to be trivial and could be tossed. I try to respect her judgement. When things are going OK with us then it's easier to do. When they're not then I'm afraid I become disgruntled and probably a bit petty. But I'm unhappy and to some extent feel I have a right to be upset.

As far as the sports ... well each boy is wrestling ... that's it. But it gets to be time consuming. I don't want to miss it though because its new to me and the family and I seem to be enjoying it. My 7th grader is trying it for the first time and seems to be doing OK. At any rate ... I can't ask them to pick a sport cuz they're only doing 1 sport at a time.

What do her and I like to do together? Not a lot. My wife and I like to golf together. We don't do it a lot but we do go several times. Can't golf in 4 feet of snow though. We like to go to dinner (going out Saturday) and movies. We also enjoy attending the kid's events together. My best friend and his family are there at wrestling and we've also made lots of new friends. Great people. So that's a good thing in my life right now.

Meanwhile I keep myself busy trying to finish off our basement. Maybe that can become my place of escape from the clutter ... we'll see.

Agreed. But then then my usually passive side says just the opposite. I hate the arguments or disagreements and how I inevitably feel worse coming out of our discussions. She sees things her way and me trying to convince her otherwise does no good. Why she'll twist it enough where it appears I'm not allowed to feel hurt.

She can be quite stubborn, not nasty, but just downright stubborn when she's cornered about her comfort zone. She'll tell you to your face "When someone backs me into a corner I dig in my heels". Some things are just too scary for her. She will do the same even in the face of a professional.

I've been told here she's done well to manipulate me, intentional or not. I've learned through prior experience the end result of our conversations and I come away knowing she doesn't see things the way I see them. And for me to keep pushing seems outlandish.

"I'm trying".

She is trying ... she has changed some. At the end of the day though the frequency is about the same as it always has which is unacceptable.