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Originally Posted By: EasyE
Wait, WHAT?

Mr. Alias is NOT WORKING ON HIS MARRIAGE? I can't wait to see what he says about that.



After trying the books and exercises taught here for years I slowly gave up. By last August when I confessed to my wife about my, yet again, disappointment I no longer had nor cared to have the strength to keep trying. I figured if she wanted to be married it was time she stepped up and showed some initiative. Why I even told her last August the thing that bothered me the most was the ignoring of the frequency situation all the time. If it's been weeks there was never any indication that she was concerned or even thinking about the fact that my needs weren't being met. I told her I would feel better if she acknowledged that. She hasn't. However she has really stepped up the other forms of physical touch by providing plenty of hugs and I love yous and even some affirmations. So in some ways she's been better but this frequency thing has really got me down.

As of last week I am trying again ... just the fact I'm here looking for direction (and have gotten good advice) means I'm trying again. Right now it certainly is a "fake it til I make it" attempt ... some of those old feelings aren't there and haven't returned and probably won't until I see results from her comment about a fresh start. If that fails, which I'm pretty sure it will, I'll have to hire on someone else to see if they can help.

I have started a small routine of working out. Right now I'm just riding the exercise bike (planter fascitiis for years now so I can't run). Doing small exercises for my core. I hope to hit the home gym soon but I'm a little wary about my golfer's elbow. I've never really been able to 100% heal from that tendonitis. I'm going to start going back to Active Release Technique therapy which helps both of those tendonitis issues. Also I'm taking vitamins and minerals that are supposed to help with those issues.


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Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: EasyE

My point is simply that even with counselling, even with Marriage Builders counselling, the stalemate that occurs when one spouse ignores the other's pleas for intimacy is a long, vicious one.



But.......he hasn't tried Marriage Builders counseling. I think one should try that before they give up. Many can do it yourself with a couple of books and the workbook, but when that doesn't work, it is time to try a professional, IMO.

If that doesn't work, I am a big advocate of Plan B, just as Dr Harley prescribes. When a spouse refuses to meet your needs, sometimes separation or even divorce is the definition of success.


I agree Melody. Don't lose hope. I suspect it will come down to me having to call on the professionals. Just give me some time.


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Quote:
To decode: "Masturbate and think about other, attractive women. Do this a lot."

Eew. Don't take up this pervy suggestion, Alias. You are a much better man than that.


Geez I fear to even answer this seeing my character as a man will be in question.

I have always had "self time" during our marriage. The physical ramifications of not having this means I'm constantly reminded by my hormones that "Hey you're not getting any.".

It used to be most times she'd be the one I'd visualize and fantisize about. Even if it's been 3+ months (which is where we're at today). Good God I can remember after our 1 son was born it was 13 months. But once I lost the strength ... well ... she's not the one anymore.

Anyways having self time is somewhat self medicating and keeps me from having a mind that is running rampid making bad decisions.


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Originally Posted By: MrAlias
I suspect it will come down to me having to call on the professionals.


You are lying to yourself. You know you can't fix this without help. Either tell us you aren't interested in fixing it. Or hire the Harleys. But don't tell us you want to fix it and think you can make it work yourself. Time for Radical Honesty.


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Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
Originally Posted By: MrAlias
I suspect it will come down to me having to call on the professionals.


You are lying to yourself. You know you can't fix this without help. Either tell us you aren't interested in fixing it. Or hire the Harleys. But don't tell us you want to fix it and think you can make it work yourself. Time for Radical Honesty.


No I'm not. It's out of my control and it's up to her. I'm just giving her a chance. I spoke about the frequency and she said let's start fresh.

However I'm not kidding myself. Based on past experience I'm quite certain she will fall short yet again. I've said that several times now. And when that happens I will inform her of the next step I'm going to take. She can get on board with the plan if she wants to.

Meanwhile I'm going to get myself back.

Last edited by MrAlias; 02/01/11 10:37 AM.

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Originally Posted By: MrAlias
[
No I'm not. It's out of my control and it's up to her. I'm just giving her a chance. I spoke about the frequency and she said let's start fresh.

However I'm not kidding myself. Based on past experience I'm quite certain she will fall short yet again. I've said that several times now. And when that happens I will inform her of the next step I'm going to take. She can get on board with the plan if she wants to.

Meanwhile I'm going to get myself back.


There is no plan here. Having no plan is a plan to fail. Just nagging her about the frequency does not resolve the basic problem that causes the lack of frequency: she is not in love. MrAlias, you are spinning your wheels, my good friend.


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Mr. A,

Feel free to disregard this, but I'll share some of my thoughts, since I think I have been in a similar situation.

By all means I think the counseling would be benficial. However, I can say my wife and I did the counseling and it did not help much. I don't blame the counseling or the process, it's just simply counseling will not help a person who does not think they need help. MC or IC does great for people who say their life is terrible and need help to fix it. It's not so effective for the person who says "my life is great, I just don't understand why everyone is so upset with me."

I did not do the MB weekend, so I can't speak to whether that is more effective or not.

My wife for a long time did as you describe and consistently promised to make changes, etc, but then ultimately did not deliver. IMO, some people are motivated by seeking something better, something they want, while others are motivated by protecting what they have. I think this creates very different dynamics. The former tends take actions that improve things, while the later tends to do just enough to keep things going along. I think this has a lot to do with whether using MB was successful. Since my wife tends to be in the later group, she did not "buy" what MB was "selling." I don't mean that she didn't think it would work, I mean she did not want what it was offering. This is why I posted earlier that I didn't think MrsA wanted to be "in love."

I don't know the right answer to deal with this. Some will say, well, the spouses just want different things and all you can do is part ways. But this is not a great option if you really don't want to divorce. Plus, as you may have experienced, once one proposes divorce, the non "on board" spouse starts to up their efforts and promises, until divorce is taken off the table. But once that storm passes, they revert to old ways again. This is what a mean about protecting against losses.

This is really depressing stuff, as you can begin to feel like you do your part, and the only way you can get your needs met, is to play the D card. Not very romantic, and ultimately it becomes obvious that it isn't sustainable, because, well, you can only "bluff" the D card, so many times.

Generally, the next reaction is to try and even the tables. Start withholding what you provide in order to make it fair. However, this just starts a downward spiral, and gives the non "on board" spouse more reason to under deliver.

I found a couple of things to help me work through this. First off, I think you have to not look at things as either/or, but both. Meaning, you will do the things neccessary to improve your M, but will also keep progressing on things that are best for you. As an example, I got out of the "marriage building" business. This doesn't mean I don't meet EN's, don't avoid LB's, refuse to listen to my wife's feedback, etc., but it also means I'm not "leading" the make our M better effort, as that just depresses me.

I stay honest with my wife. I'm not manipulating her and I'm not hiding things from her. As an example, I have told her that I think the MB weekend or something like that could really help, but I'm not setting it up. Basically, if she wants our M to be like I want our M to be, then I'm all for it, but I'm not dragging her along kicking and screaming. I've told her that if our M is not how I'd like it to be, then I will leave her. But, I have no pressing reason to do that today. I may have that reason tommorrow, or the next day, but I don't really know.

Not being in the marriage building business has greatly reduced my stress and freed up a lot of time. Both of which allow me to focus on myself. Getting in better physical health, doing what I want to do, rebuilding my career, etc. Plus, frankly, I feel more like a man, as I never felt right having to bring up relationship talk all the time.

I figure 1 of 3 things will happen. My wife will one day potentially want more out of our M than what it is now and will seek out ways to improve it. If that happens, before it's too late, then I will certainly participate. Or, my wife may never change, and eventually my marriage will be a "limitation" on what I want to do and I will move on. Or something in the middle may happen, where some changes happen, but my M is not as fulfilling as I would like it to be, but it is not a limitation on my overall life being fulfilling. In which case, I would be fine.

Anyway, wish you the best.


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Originally Posted By: MrAlias
I have always had "self time" during our marriage. The physical ramifications of not having this means I'm constantly reminded by my hormones that "Hey you're not getting any.".


That should drive you to find a solution to the problem that makes you both happy.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 17 years, who is a beautiful angel.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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If your next step is moving out, then you might as well call the Harleys. A few sessions with them won't cost any more than the security deposit on the apartment you'll need. And they might actually get your wife to POJA with you (which is apparently the result you want).

The key is whether you are willing to do the work to reconnect with her. Not a given. I am not. If you are, then hire the Harleys to maximize the chance she will get on board. If you are not, then don't pretend you have moved out of Withdrawal.


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Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
If your next step is moving out, then you might as well call the Harleys. A few sessions with them won't cost any more than the security deposit on the apartment you'll need. And they might actually get your wife to POJA with you (which is apparently the result you want).

The key is whether you are willing to do the work to reconnect with her. Not a given. I am not. If you are, then hire the Harleys to maximize the chance she will get on board. If you are not, then don't pretend you have moved out of Withdrawal.


Hold I don't know what you've been reading. I never said my next step was to move out. I even went as far earlier to say that I would probably hang around until the kids were gone.

I never said I had moved out of withdrawal I just said I was going to get back with the program. I said I was doing the "fake it til I make it" method because those feelings aren't there right now.


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Originally Posted By: rprynne

By all means I think the counseling would be benficial. However, I can say my wife and I did the counseling and it did not help much. I don't blame the counseling or the process, it's just simply counseling will not help a person who does not think they need help. MC or IC does great for people who say their life is terrible and need help to fix it. It's not so effective for the person who says "my life is great, I just don't understand why everyone is so upset with me."



MrAlias, while the counseling did not work for rprynne, I can point to numerous other couples whose marriages were turned around by it. There are no guarantees, but the Harleys are COACHES, rather than counslors, who view their main goal as motivating couples to get on board. Most couples who show up for help have at least one reluctant spouse, and they are often successful in motivating that person to engage.

Please seek out those who HAVE resolved their marriage problems and ask them how they did it. You already know how to fail, so you don't need more direction on that.


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Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: MrAlias
[
No I'm not. It's out of my control and it's up to her. I'm just giving her a chance. I spoke about the frequency and she said let's start fresh.

However I'm not kidding myself. Based on past experience I'm quite certain she will fall short yet again. I've said that several times now. And when that happens I will inform her of the next step I'm going to take. She can get on board with the plan if she wants to.

Meanwhile I'm going to get myself back.


There is no plan here. Having no plan is a plan to fail. Just nagging her about the frequency does not resolve the basic problem that causes the lack of frequency: she is not in love. MrAlias, you are spinning your wheels, my good friend.


I think you're wrong. If you were to ask my wife I think she would tell you she's deeply in love with me. I can see it. She tries hard to fill all the other needs. She just isn't good at filling this one.

She also would probably tell you as she's told me when she doesn't get out of life what she wants ... "You aren't getting what you need? ... tough ... suck it up. That's life.". That's how she was raised. I can only assume that's how she views my needs.

And as far as a plan is concerned ... well if the only plan is your plan then NO I have no plan. If I'm allowed to go at my pace and decide when I'm ready to begin counseling again or withdrawing again then you can call that my plan. I'm sorry it doesn't fit within your requirement.

I hesitate because I belive it is as rypenne says ... when they're being pushed things change ... but given time and the pushing stops ... they go back to what is comfortable. My wife was great when we were in counseling. We worked on a lot and we improved lots of aspects of our R. Things seemed to be going well. We moved on and eventually the frequency just backslide right back to where we were. There is always a reason we can't do it. My wife could write a book I tell ya (sorry for the DJ but I'm sick of the excuses). So given my wife would tell you she's in love with me ... I'm hoping there is more in store from the Harleys then just trying to regain what my wife would tell you she never lost?

I would like to get back that "in-love" feeling. I really would. But I hate to think I'm going to spend a ton of dough only to wind up right back in the same place in a few years.

My wife and I know the concepts. We've taken the surveys. We talk occassionally about where we are at and whether or not we're happy. Lately she hasn't asked because she knows the answer. We make mutual decisions about things that are of importance. It isn't a formalized method but we do it our way and it works.


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Originally Posted By: MrAlias

And as far as a plan is concerned ... well if the only plan is your plan then NO I have no plan. If I'm allowed to go at my pace and decide when I'm ready to begin counseling again or withdrawing again then you can call that my plan. I'm sorry it doesn't fit within your requirement.



MrAlias, of course you can go at your own pace. I don't have any "requirements." crazy I am only pointing out that there is no plan here. And when there is no plan, that is a plan to fail.

Quote:
My wife and I know the concepts. We've taken the surveys. We talk occassionally about where we are at and whether or not we're happy. Lately she hasn't asked because she knows the answer. We make mutual decisions about things that are of importance. It isn't a formalized method but we do it our way and it works.


Ok, but that has not resolved your problems, has it?


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MrA, if your plan is to coach with the Harleys if (when?) waiting doesn't work, then I suggest you skip the waiting and call the Harleys. But it is your choice. You are entitled to choose to remian unhappy. I have exercised that choice, and while I advise against it, I understand everyone has the right to be as foolish as I am.


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It gets a little "cultish" around here.

I think the MB coaching is very good and I have not come across a better model out there. If it is something you want to do, then I would not let the money hold you up.

I don't face the same singular issue that you are facing, but I do see similarities to my situation in the "cycle" that you are dealing with.

I took some time away from here and made a lot of progress. I'm not unhappy with my M and consider my marriage problems resolved. But I am also not bouncing off the walls with joy about my M. (I suppose some will claim that means nothing is resolved, but I don't buy that view).

I wish the coaching with the Harley's would happen for you, but I'm not sure you don't shoot yourself in the foot if you set it up. I think even if you pushed for it, your wife would give in for the purpose of appeasing you as opposed to for the purpose of marriage building. I don't think that works out very well.

If it were me, I would approach it by expressing your feelings (without coming across as whiny or nagging) and let her propose a solution. And then critically review that solution for loopholes. i.e. ask her what she expects you to do when/if she does not deliver on her committments.

While some will say this is attacking the symptom, rather than the problem (being in love), I think a few rounds of this will either work, or if it fails, it might give her an opportunity to conclude on her own that professional help is needed.

Originally Posted By: MrAlias
I think you're wrong. If you were to ask my wife I think she would tell you she's deeply in love with me. I can see it. She tries hard to fill all the other needs. She just isn't good at filling this one.


By the way, I have a hard time with this logic. Did she never meet this need? If she did, then barring physical or mental issues, it seems difficult to conclude she is deeply in love with you and won't meet the need for SF.


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Originally Posted By: rprynne
It gets a little "cultish" around here.


I think you might be confusing enthusiasm for Marriage Builders with being "cultish." And I can understand why you would see it that way, since you have not really recovered* your own marriage. It sounds to me like nothing has really changed except you have simply lowered your standards. [*recovery as defined by MB] "cultish" is defined as:

noun
1. a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies.

The only one I worship is God. However, I am enthusiastic about a program that has brought passion and joy to my own marriage. It has changed my quality of life. So of course, I would be passionate about such a program and hope that others could attain the same thing. I want the same thing for others. Promoting Marriage Builders on this forum is not cultish. That is ludicrous.

Quote:
I wish the coaching with the Harley's would happen for you, but I'm not sure you don't shoot yourself in the foot if you set it up. I think even if you pushed for it, your wife would give in for the purpose of appeasing you as opposed to for the purpose of marriage building. I don't think that works out very well.

If it were me, I would approach it by expressing your feelings (without coming across as whiny or nagging) and let her propose a solution. And then critically review that solution for loopholes. i.e. ask her what she expects you to do when/if she does not deliver on her committments.


But, since she doesn't have solutions, that seems to be an ineffective tactic? A better tactic, IMO, would be to do what others have done here and set up an appointment with Steve Harley and let HIM coach the presenting spouse on how to persuade his wife to get on the phone. Then once the reluctant spouse is on the phone, Steve Harley can persuade her to do the program.


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Originally Posted By: rprynne
Did she never meet this need? If she did, then barring physical or mental issues, it seems difficult to conclude she is deeply in love with you and won't meet the need for SF.


She has always been this way. It's better now then it was about 5 or 6 years ago but it's still way too little. Heck my compromise was once a week when its possible. I thought I could live with that. Up to this point I have no idea if I could because it has seldom happened.

Again I believe she is in love with me. Her theory is you can't always have everything you want. Get over it. However she has never voiced my issue in this way so I could be DJ'ing her big time.


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Has she said she's in love with you? You keep saying you believe she is. This is an assumption.


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Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
I think you might be confusing enthusiasm for Marriage Builders with being "cultish." And I can understand why you would see it that way, since you have not really recovered* your own marriage. It sounds to me like nothing has really changed except you have simply lowered your standards. [*recovery as defined by MB] "cultish" is defined as:

noun
1. a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies.

The only one I worship is God. However, I am enthusiastic about a program that has brought passion and joy to my own marriage. It has changed my quality of life. So of course, I would be passionate about such a program and hope that others could attain the same thing. I want the same thing for others. Promoting Marriage Builders on this forum is not cultish. That is ludicrous.


Always wanting to argue. Would dogmatic have been more palitable?

The enthusiasm is great, but do you even read what people post anymore before you respond with the answer? Or does nothing else matter, MB will solve it? There is only one solution and it is MB, is that the point?

I'm getting the feeling that even in a post where someone espouses and encourages MB, you seek out the one sentence that does not fit with what you want everyone to hear and then try and shout it down. And if you don't have good logic you're more than happy to tell them they are a failure who has lowered their standards. Hopefully I'm wrong about that feeling.


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Originally Posted By: rprynne
Always wanting to argue. Would dogmatic have been more palitable?


Do you not understand that accusing people of being "cultish" or even "dogmatic" is insulting? When you insult someone and attempt to dismiss them you invite argument. I take issue with being branded as "cultish." How dare you.

Quote:
The enthusiasm is great, but do you even read what people post anymore before you respond with the answer? Or does nothing else matter, MB will solve it? There is only one solution and it is MB, is that the point?


Yes, that is what we are here to discuss, isn't it? Did you see the sign on the door? Marriage Builders very probably can solve his problem.

Quote:
And if you don't have good logic you're more than happy to tell them they are a failure who has lowered their standards. Hopefully I'm wrong about that feeling.


Isn't it logical to point out that your own suggestions have not worked for you? You proclaim yourself "in recovery" and then qualify that with "I'm not unhappy with my M and consider my marriage problems resolved. But I am also not bouncing off the walls with joy about my M." "I'm not unhappy" is not defined as recovered by MB standards. That is your standard.

That sounds to me like you have simply lowered your standards. I think its important to ask if this approach has worked for you.


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