I've never seen this work, with other people who've tried it, and in my own experience with counselors. They'll agree to "help" you with MB, but they've got their own training and beliefs and are considered the "expert" when you hire them, so they're just going to do their own thing. Even if they say they agree with MB.

Then it's my hope the counselor helps my wife with her personal junk. I won't be committing to trying something that will only propel us towards divorce.

Quick update.

Not a lot to report. Things are moving in a more positive direction between MrsAlias and I. I'm putting in the effort to get in the UA time we need. Right now UA time consists of conversation, rec time and small amounts of affection. We kissed yesterday for the first time in months.

She has had 2 counseling sessions. Not much revealed by her about these sessions. She keeps a lot of stuff in and lately I've been really concerned that one of our biggest obstacles is a lack of PORH. Moreso it feels like I have to draw information and her feelings from her. Those conversations are always ... awkward ... and so they don't happen often.

Her and her counselor have asked me to join them for a joint session next Wed Feb 1st. I'm a bit anxious concerning this meeting. I am prepared to tell the counselor I don't think her plan is going to work for me if it, in fact, deviates from Dr Harley's plan.

On a good note I have been having private conversations with MrsAlias's sister who is best friend and confidant. Her S said she seemed much happier that last time they spoke. She said whatever I was doing to keep it up as it seems to have given MrsAlias some hope for the future. I'm puzzled by this as all I've done is stuck to my MB principles best I can. I think her biggest concern was that MB was going to tell her she couldn't have any relationships, hobbies outside of me. She asked if she could go back to spend time with her S and her horses. I said I have no issues with her doing things outside of us so long as her and I were getting and adequate amount of time meeting each other's needs. Maybe she misunderstood what the intention of the program was. Not sure as she hasn't said anything other than she was happy to hear she could still spend time with her S.

I'm hopeful MrsAlias is getting over her resentment about having to stop drinking and her resentment thinking I was wrong to discuss her drinking and our M to our kids.

I also told my W that I was very encouraged that she had quit drinking and that I was now excited to explore many of the things we did together or talked about doing as couples that I used to dread because it meant alcohol was going to be involved.

So maybe those 2 things are making a difference for her. I will be discussing these topics with her and her counselor next week.

Meanwhile I've got some nice plans for us to get out and get in some quality UA time. Things are limited here in the Great White North as I hate, hate the cold. lol. But there are plenty of indoor things we can do until the big thaw.

So that's my quick update. Things feel better. At least I feel a bit better. Not so gloom and doom anymore.

I'll be ecstatic if the counselor gets us both on the MB page again. That may be a pipe dream.

So your UA time isn't including SF?

Nope. I can't force myself or her into it. I'm sure I'll be ready sooner rather than later. I can't speak for when she'll be ready.

Also my health hasn't allowed it to be an option for quite some time. I've been dealing with some kind of sinus, bronchial infection for a very long time. Had pneumonia around Thanksgiving and by the time that cleared I caught a nasty cold around Xmas. I'm almost back to normal today. 2 rounds of antibiotics in the last 2 months haven't been able to heal me to 100%. I have an ear( inner ear - Eustachian tube) that has been plugged for over 3 weeks. Hearing impaired. Everything sounds like I'm underwater. Feels pretty good today. First day in a long time. She won't come near me if I'm sick.

SF has always been an issue in our M. I hold myself accountable assuming that I haven't done the things needed to create enough romantic love to make SF appealing. I say that knowing that my W believes there are different ways (other than Dr Harley's methods) to create that feeling of love.

I have a bunch of ideas I've been planning to do for date nights that I'm sure she will like. I hoped to start last weekend but the inner ear stuff caused a nasty 3 day case of positional vertigo. Incapacitated.

I am going to keep pushing to implement all of the principles without making it feel like I'm shoving MB down her throat. Best way for me to do that is to avoid saying anything like "MB says" or "Dr Harley says" but instead use statements that let her know what I would like in our M. "I would love it if ... ".

For any of you that are still following ....

The Mrs and I had our counseling session this past Wednesday. There was some interesting dialogue.

First off the counselor did give me an opportunity to provide any information I wished and ask any questions. So I gave her background on my long history of trying to implement Dr Harley's concepts. She admitted she wasn't familiar with Dr Harley's principles but had heard of him. I'm thinking best selling author in your field and you haven't researched his work? She did say MrsAlias had discussed some of the MB concepts with her. So I gave her the highlights of MB and told her these were very important principles as far as I was concerned. I told her my goal was to create an environment of extraordinary care and to create a very happy, passionate marriage and that I see MB as the right plan to do that. People who are romantically in love do not get divorced.

The counselor appears to follow a concept about the highs and lows in marriage where people fall in and out of a connection. Uhm yeah it's called not meeting needs and committing LBs thereby emptying the bank. (I didn't say this to her, just thought it). She also recommended some part of Co-Dependent No More. I told her I read it already. Told her I believe in an integrated M and that was my focus.

We had no takeaways after our first session and while my W continues individual counseling her and I will have at least a couple more couples sessions with her.

I am not completely discouraged after meeting her. Didn't get any impression that she was going to ask me/us to do something that wouldn't be in line with the MB concepts. Time will tell.

She did state to my W that a professional assessment regarding the drinking might be a good idea. During our conversation about her drinking (W still has resentment about my ask and for talking with our kids about it) the counselor did ask what exactly is my concern about the drinking.

"I don't like what it does for her. It changes her. She makes bad decisions and many times struggles to control it. She did a better job this last year but still managed to drink outside the boundaries we agreed she would adhere to.

To top it off they only time I get my most important need met is when she's had enough to drink to get her in the mood. I'd rather those moments be with her without the effects of alcohol.

It's always been such a huge part of our lives but in the last few years it has lead to some very painful moments for me. Her drinking hurts me now that those events have happened and I am triggered every time she drinks. The simplest answer is for me is to have her avoid drinking so I don't have to stress about it.

Dr Harley recommends that couples focus on the things that they did together that made them fall in love. Sadly enough the one thing we did more than anything was to party/drink. I would love to find a new way for her and I to be in love. One that doesn't rely on drinking to have fun, relax and be intimate."

Meanwhile the Mrs and I are getting along well, having more moments of physical affection, some hugging and a peck or two now and then.

So that's a bit of relief.

However not knowing what this Dr's plan is is a bit concerning. I'm not signing up for a bunch of sessions where all we do is navel gaze and dredge up the past.

What if a professional were to tell your W after assessing her that she does not have a problem? Could she then continue to drink?

The problem with encouraging her to get a professional assessment, is that regardless of the outcome, if it bothers YOU she should STOP. Encouraging her to get a second opinion is IMO encouraging her to disregard your feelings.

Doesn't sound very marriage building to me.

As with many counselors, there is an attempt to figure out who is right or wrong here, vs negotiating a win win solution and being respectful to the other person's perspective.

I totally agree with unwritten. She explained it elegantly!!

Thanks for the input.

I plan to continue a simple message.

"I am triggered every time she drinks. The best option for me is to have her avoid drinking."

You might not have been completely discouraged after meeting this counsellor, but there are many red flags here. It's obvious that she takes the standard IC and MC counsellor line that she is there to help her client achieve the best for her. She isn't going to try and persuade her to rebuild her marriage against her will - and and she isn't too impressed with you, by the way. She has an inkling that you are controlling and unreasonable. She already has a description of how much your wife drank - from your wife. She told the counsellor that she liked to drink with friends, and at weekends, and perhaps one on a few weekday evenings. She would have had a few over Christmas and New Year. She likes to get merry from time to time - but who doesn't? She never gets drunk, and she is in control of her drinking - evidenced by her being able to give it up all these weeks. There is probably nothing about the amount your wife drank that would be seen as problematic. Yes - she should be encouraged to cut back to the 14 units per week for women (that's the UK recommendation, anyway). But as long as she keeps it low, a few drinks across the course of the week is not "problem drinking". That is her line.

YOU are the problem in this scenario, and as unwritten has so eloquently told you, the counsellor will use this independent assessment to validate your wife's drinking and confirm to her that you are unreasonable.

When you were asked what is exactly is your concern about the drinking, that wasn't a question from a counsellor that knows that even small amounts of drinking can change someone into an unpleasant person, and it certainly did not come from the position of "if it bothers the spouse, it should be stopped".

When you were asked that question you should have been much more specific about the flirting, and whatever else has taken place (I can't remember it all now). Why did you keep it so vague, talking about "she makes bad decisions"? What the heck does that mean? It sounds as if you can't put your finger on anything, and you just want to control your wife.

You need to be very careful with this counsellor. It might be in your interest to go, since your wife refuses to stop seeing her, but she is not a friend of the marriage, and she is not your friend. She is already validating your wife's independent behaviour. For her to talk about Co-Dependent No More is a screaming red flag.

You were invited to go to these meetings just so that the counsellor can she how big a n insecure tyrant you are, and now she's seen it. Be warned.

Thanks for the response SugarCane.

I'll heed everyone's warnings.

I can only control what I can control. So while this counselor appears to be heading down a bad path it doesn't mean I need to agree to any of her suggestions. I will not agree to any type of agreement that says she should be able to once again try to control her drinking. I will continue to emphasize my need to build a happy, romantic R without the need for alcohol.

My W did tell the counselor there were some bad incidents regarding her drinking and that she didn't want to go back there. To me that's a good sign and a bad sign all in one. She agrees she didn't do well controlling her drinking and did some inappropriate things. However she still appears to want to have the freedom to drink some. She hasn't asked me if it's OK yet so I am going to move forward assuming she never will.

I've made it clear my desire is to rebuild this absent of any drinking.

Sorry for the delay in responding unwritten. Thanks for the insight.

I did tell the counselor that I wasn't sure or not if my W has an addiction. That I'm not a professional and am not qualified to make that call. I then immediately said, it doesn't matter, to be quite honest, whether she is or not. I don't like what it does to her (we didn't get into specifics what it does to her yet). I'd rather not be around her when she's drinking. It is my goal to build a happy, romantic without a need for alcohol.

Update:

Not a lot to report here. We have been talking a lot more the last few weeks. My W and I continue to avoid alcohol. Still struggling to find a lot that we do together. In our defense I'm pretty immobile right now as my plantar fasciitis has flared up again (seeing a physical therapist again trying to eliminate it).

The counseling hasn't done a lot for us IMHO up to this point. We've mostly talked about our current behaviors and where those create issues in our feelings of being connected.

So I have a question. The counselor does not use Dr Harley's principles but rather has her own sources.

I questioned the counseling to MrsAlias, stating I wasn't sure where the counselor was taking us as there have been zero exercises she's having us commit to. So yesterday after her IC session she said the counselor suggested we participate in a workbook that is not an MB worksheet.

Can I discuss who this other professional is and their philosophies here? I feel a little lost thinking I may lose this place as a resource for helping to improve my marriage. Meeting with this counselor once every other week is a slow process that, so far, isn't making much a dent in our love banks. Well ... at least hardly a dent in my bank.

yes, can you tell us who it is? We know about most popular counselors.

The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work John Gottman

It sounds similar in some respects to the concepts of Dr Harley. Although the phrasing is odd ...

��Enhance your love maps.� ... Sounds like a rephrase of the Love Bank.
��Nurture your fondness and admiration.� ... Meet each other needs ... fill the love bank
��Turn toward each other instead of away.� ... avoid independent behavior
��Let your partner influence you.� ... POJA (this one may be in conflict with Dr Harley's concepts unless it really does mean negotiate).
��Solve your solvable problems.� ... POJA
��Overcome gridlock.� ... POJA
��Create shared meaning.� POJA

This doesn't sound like Dr. Harley's concept of meeting each other's emotional needs. The way I'm seeing it described is:

"To nurture your fondness and admiration, Gottman stresses that appreciation is essential. Write down 3 or more of your partner's positive characteristics along with an incident that illustrates the characteristic, then read the list to each other. For example, if your partner did something as simple as doing the dishes instead of you, thank him for that kindness."

That's not Dr. Harley's lovebank model. It might meet the emotional need of admiration. Maybe.

This is described as "the little things that count." Turn towards each other by shopping for groceries, playing a board game, or calling each other during the day. And when stressful situations come along, you'll have more "positivity" in your "emotional bank accounts."

Shopping for groceries or calling each other during the day is not going to make your marriage withstand the stress of life. You need more than that -- which is why Dr. Harley has the POUA (which I'm not seeing anything like that in these principles).

Big problems with this one. Gottman identifies two types of problems: solvable and perpetual.
The solvable being things such as: husband forgetting to take out the trash.

The perpetual being such as: The wife would like to spend less time with the husband and more time with her friends. This is perpetual because they have two different types of personalities, and it will never be solved in a way that makes them both happy. The solution he gives is: "Accept and Adapt."

This is NOT POJA. The "unsolvable, perpetual" problems ARE solvable using the POJA. "Accept and Adapt" will just set up resentment.
"Overcoming Gridlock" is just his strategy for dealing with these perpetual problems.

These are rituals such as a morning routine, family holidays, shared meals ... Not really POJA, other than you agree to do them.

Haven�t heard from you in a long while. I hope all is well.

Hello MB friends,

I am back looking for some help. I apologize for not staying in contact but mostly apologize for failing to stick with MBs.

I find myself in another terrible spot. I've spent the last 2 years living with my wife as roommates. Much has changed and much stays the same. While my wife no longer consumes a lot of alcohol she does have a drink once a week or so. It doesn't feel like a problem anymore.

However what we were left with after the problem was a loveless marriage. We just existed and did the minimum. I have fallen so far away from the mb concepts I am quite ashamed. I should not have done that even though I would have been doing them alone.

For the last few months my wife has been up to something and as I figured she started smoking behind my back. Always finding reasons to have to go to town. A few days ago i confronted her without definitive proof but enough that she had to confess.

As part of that confession I also confessed I was seriously considering a divorce. I let her know I was hurt and felt betrayed. She says she knows how that feels . She feels betrayed that i,as suggested here, told our kids I was contemplating divorce...this was over 2 years ago.

Neither of us wants a divorce but I am quite certain she doesn't want to "officially " use mb concepts. However we both discussed what we need and are working at it again.

All that said albeit super condensed here is where I'm struggling.

She said she'd quit smoking although no timeline was given. I told her I don't want to be married to a smoker and although she states she was stupid to start I'm petty sure she doesn't want to quit. She definitely doesn't want to stop her diet Pepsi despite it being a reason she had to have teeth pulled. I've told her how that bothers me both from a P A perspective and a financial perspective. It cost us over 10k to have this dental work done.

It's only been a couple of days but she's been actively working on some of the things I have asked for and we're acting more like spouses. I'm still waiting for her requests but am actively been affectionate and providing admiration whenever I can. We're hugging and having a peck now and then. We stopped doing that a long time ago.

I don't want to divorce her. She is for the most part a very nice person. However she doesn't like being "told" what to do and views my refusal to stay married to a smoker as a form of control. She likes her dependence and doesn't buy into the mb interdependence concepts.

I feel trapped. I have my doubts that she'll quit and I worry she'll just keep hiding it. This is giving me many sleepless nights. Has for months now. If she does quit she may do her thing of being passive aggressive, upset at me, treating me like a roommate. Same thing happened with the drinking.

The only alternative is divorce and that is very upsetting to me.

I am not sure where to go from here.

I'd love it if we had a great interdependent mb marriage but we don't and probably never will.

Hi MrAlias, welcome back! Thanks for the update. By smoking, she is controlling you, not the other way around. Asking a spouse to stop doing something that annoys you is not "control;" but forcing you to accept it, IS. Asking you to suffer on her behalf. The bottom line is that if one spouse refuses to use the policy of joint agreement, marital success is impossible. She has told you hundred million ways that she will never use the POJA. You have been here for years with the same problem so you know it won't change. Welcome to your future. You can't force someone to change against her will. I realize that no one wants a divorce, but do you want to spend the rest of your life in an unhappy marriage where your spouse doesn't care about your feelings? I found these 2 Harley quotes that address your situation:


here