Hello Melody, Thank you for the feedback.

It's good to hear from you and to get a clear perspective.

I do realize my wife has her ways of control in our marriage. I definitely want and feel I deserve to be happy. Seems there was so much dysfunctional behavior we grew up with and continue to see these days that we both assume there will always be a certain level of it within our own marriage ... after all it's not as bad as our siblings. blah blah blah ... blech. I don't accept that. I know it not to be true and so wish it to be different with her and I.

I was of the mindset just a few weeks ago that once she admitted to the sneaking around I was going to file. The Holidays came and I had a bit of a change of heart. I don't feel today that I am in a position to say I can walk away knowing I was doing what was right for the marriage. I haven't been doing it. I gave up and probably should have split before I started to give up. I want to walk away knowing I was still doing whatever was possible to make this a great marriage.

I have been fighting the depression and anger for far too long.

She has definitely been active since I confronted her doing what I need to have a happy marriage including stating she will quit smoking. She just hasn't offered a timeframe (which I'd hoped would be immediately). I am in a bit of a wait and see mode to see how serious she is about us, about me. I, tentatively, am giving this a couple of months to turn itself around. However I won't wait that long for her to quit smoking. She isn't smoking a ton today so it shouldn't be as hard for her to quit this time. I will probably ask her what her plan is today.

I am scared for the future. I'm at a point in my life that retirement is just over the horizon and I was so looking forward to spending those years with her doing a lot of fun things. I hate to think about doing them alone.

Thanks again Melody. I will be trying to come here for support and advice as much as possible.

The issue isn't what you have or haven't done, [you have done everything] but that she refuses to follow the policy of joint agreement. I look at your register date of April 2003 and see that you have had the same problems in your marriage all this time, almost 17 years. Nothing has changed. The daily conflicts might change but the dynamics never do. The fact that you have been dealing with an unhappy marriage all this time tells me you aren't really looking for solutions. Would you agree with that assessment?

In the time you have been here, you could have been divorced and happily remarried like many, many other people here. But you have wasted years of your life on a situation you obviously can't change because it takes 2 people to make a marriage work. Your wife doesn't care about you.



I think it is unrealistic to think she will make you happy in the future when she has refused to do so for most of your marriage. Your retirement will be just as miserable as your marriage has been all these years. I think you will be alone in retirement if you stay married. But it doesn't have to be that way.

Hi MrA. I'm sorry that you had to come back here.

How old are your kids now? Is your signature accurate?

Actually I think quite the opposite. My actions may not show that of course but best I can I have been trying to work the MB concepts into my marriage. I know IT IS the solution that will work for me. She just isn't on-board. I simply haven't gotten up the nerve or what have you to end the relationship which is, I guess, the next step this plan suggests. Each time I run into another conflict with her I continue to think that maybe this time we'll work through it and be better for it.

I love my wife but I despise the things she has put me through. I suspect in her eyes she loves me too. But it's that unconditional kind of love she grew up watching her parents.

Update: During a talk yesterday she broke down and admitted she doesn't understand what is wrong with her. She doesn't know why she continues to make these bad decisions. She admitted that she has been hiding the smoking for nearly 2 years. I am very upset at this. 2 years! I am so hurt by this. She replaced the drinking with smoking. She says she is terribly ashamed. And now she's walking around feeling down and depressed. This despite me telling her she can make things better. She just needs to stop doing the things that hurt me and us and start doing the things that make me and us happy. I told her I'd give her a little while to be upset but that I can't wait around very long for her to take action to be a happy partner, quit doing the hurtful things and meet my needs.

I am lost. I don't know if I am a glutton for punishment or truly know there are good qualities in her that are worth seeing this through. I am much, much closer now to calling it quits. I feel the trust is gone. What else has she done that I don't know about. She says there is nothing else. I told her I wish I could believe that.

I think I will insist we follow MB to the letter or I'm out. I deserve that much if I plan to stick it out.

Hello SC, nice to see you are still around.

Yes, my signature has been updated. 2 of the kids are college students living out of town both within an hour of home. DS1 a senior in college, DD a freshman in college and DS2 a junior in HS.

If I were you, I would sign up for the course this time. Do it yourself has not worked in these past 17 years. Sign up for program #3: https://www.marriagebuilders.com/the-online-program-accountability.htm

I can always ask. Doing phone counseling with Jennifer Chalmers didn't make a difference for us albeit it should have. We came out of those sessions with my wife saying there are too many parts of the program that she doesn't agree with. I told her it doesn't work half-a$$. We can't pick bits and pieces and still make the marriage great. FYI we struggle finding things to do together. I poo-poo'd many of her ideas as I knew I wasn't going to enjoy them.

I have spent the last 2 years not talking to and doing anything with my wife that a married couple would do. Roommates at best. Both very independent outside of finances. I had come to the conclusion I was just going to bid my time until all 3 kids were out of the house and then make a decision on what to do next. The last will be in college in 1.5 years.

In the last 4 days we have talked more about us, hung out together doing things like making dinner, watching a movie, working on a puzzle ,etc.

Given my desire to make it work I will need to get back on the horse. Initiate the conversations to see where we go from here. Question 1 being "Are you ready now to give our marriage a chance by following the simple guidelines provided by MB?". I think I'll start there.

We still have all 3 of Dr Harley's books and all of our notes from those sessions with Jennifer.

I had completely forgot you counseled with Jennifer Harley!

You might want to still consider getting into the coaching program. It is more hands on in that they assign you a coach and you would have weekly lessons. Dr Harley supervises your progress and you would have daily access to him over on the private forum. It might take a more micromanaged approach with you and your wife.

Thanks Melody. I will definitely take that into consideration.

I'm going to ramble on for a bit just to provide some context. I guess maybe I'm just looking for validation that I'm doing the right thing here.

My wife is really struggling. I am beside myself just as she is with herself as to why she makes these poor decisions. She suffers from mild OCD, anxiety, depression and appears to have some type of function that draws her into addictive behaviors. Drinking way too much soda, drinking too much alcohol and now for the 2nd time in her life cigarettes. The last time she quit she was still smoking when she was with our first child and a blessing of a kidney stone came along that put her in the hospital for 4 days on morphine. She hadn't had another cigarette in almost 20 years after that.

It would be my hope that, along with great marriage counseling, she could get some help understanding this dynamic and putting in tools to stop it. One would think a person could just say STOP IT (like the Harley's say) but I'm of the mindset that this is deeper and stronger than that.

The other dynamic to deal with is her need to blame me for "making" her stop doing these things instead of holding herself accountable. She admitted part of the reason she started smoking was a "screw him" type attitude. I, of course, said I'm not to blame and the only thing you did with your actions is hurt me, hurt you and definitely hurt us. I'm trying not to lecture her too much as she is plenty upset with herself and remorseful. However I did the right thing and still informed her how her behaviors hurt me.

"If you tell me what to do I'll dig my heels in and do the complete opposite".
"Why does it matter so much that I drink pop?"

I would love for a counselor to help her get rid of these weird dysfunctional thoughts she has to life.

I have told her repeatedly I am not telling her what to do. I am only telling her what bothers me and what I am willing to live with. "These aren't threats (she calls them that). It hurts me to have to deal with these on a daily basis and they simply make me very unhappy. Why would I want to stay with someone that is making me unhappy?"

"Honey I cannot live with your drinking". She still has a beer now and then. I gave up trying to push the issue of no alcohol as I was simply bidding my time until the kids were out of the house. I do miss the days when her and I would sit together, have good talks and have a drink, maybe two. I realize alcohol doesn't need to be involved. I do enjoy my little indulgences and feel they aren't an issue for me. For now her drinking doesn't bother me so I'm leaving that topic alone.

"Honey it bothers me that you continue to do the things that create issues. Your soda drinking has proven to be a bad thing as you had to have major dental work done. Having to spend so much money to fix the damage causes me great anxiety. Not to mention it impacts how I view you from a personal attractiveness perspective." She had to have 2 teeth pulled recently.

"Honey smoking is a disgusting, unhealthy habit and I don't care for the smell, the cost and what it does to your body. I cannot and will not be married to a smoker. It's a deal breaker for me."

Have you spoken to your wife about the online coaching since this post, MrA? If not, what is stopping you? Are you worried about her reaction? I can understand that, if so.

I think that even if you cannot ask her right now, or if she drags her heels or refuses, you should write to Dr Harley at the radio show for some general advice. I think that, if you want this marriage to flourish, YOU need to find some major motivation to carry on and lead your wife out of her depression.

I've been thinking about markos and Prisca; they attended a weekend seminar in person, and then did the online follow-up. For a long time after that, when they were posting here, Prisca was obviously unhappy and markos was desperate. I could see from the online forum that Dr Harley encouraged him not to give up, and to work on the assumption that Prisca really did want to save her marriage, despite her baffling rejections of all that he tried to do. markos read and implemented every piece of advice Dr Harley gave him about their problems. He studied Prisca in order to really understand what made her happy and unhappy, and he adjusted his behaviour accordingly. He had to take anti-depressants in order to face up to this task, having tried for so long already.

Only when he eliminated the major love buster of violent outbursts, and when he finally learned how Prisca liked to spend UA time and how to meet her other ENs, did he begin to see results - and this was after years of failure. And the results, when they came, were spectacular.

When I used to read their separate posts about their marriage, I could not understand Prisca's unhappiness and I felt sorry for markos for having to deal with such a no-win, permanently unhappy wife; after all, he was here, trying, and she was only reluctantly here, and obviously not trying. But once she came out of that stage as a result of his efforts and she was then able to explain her side of things, the difference between the person that she had been presenting on the board, and the real person struggling in that marriage, were unbelievable.

I'm not saying that you do anything at all to make you wife unhappy - that's not the analogy I am drawing. I'm not suggesting that you have a hidden love buster that you haven't told us about that is the root of this problem. I'm not suggesting in any way that this is your fault.

The analogy I am drawing with markos is with your having to actually do marriage builders, instead of asking her to do it. The problem is (I think) that she believe that she has already done it, and she doesn't like it. She doesn't like micro-managing every interaction with you in order to avoid DJs and all the rest of it. She doesn't like filling in forms and keeping records about her marriage. She doesn't like being presented with a list of love busters she committed in the last week, and she doesn't want to give you a list, either. She wants the marriage to be more natural and spontaneous.

If I understand correctly, though, you are disheartened when she won't "do' something she's been told you wish she would do (like affection), and you resent her for not doing it. So, you've told her what you want her to do, and you wait for her to do it. But this doesn't seem natural to her, and she wants spontaneity, not spreadsheets, and thus you are at a standoff.

You don't want to get a divorce, and indeed, that seems like a high price to pay. I can fully understand your reluctance. And yet, as Melody says, you've been here for 17 years and you are unhappy. This cannot go on.

I think Dr Harley would advise you on steps you can take to turn around a marriage with a reluctant, withdrawn wife. I don't think ultimatums are the answer. I sympathise highly with your frustration over her smoking; if my husband took up again, I might well walk out! But I think the reason she took it up and won't stop is because she doesn't care about you enough; not today. However, get her to care for you and she will care about how you feel, and be motivated to give up - and also to seek treatment for her depression. You can tell her that you would like her to stop, but don't issue ultimatums.

In sum: not being Dr Harley, I suspect that you need to stop having expectations of her for now, and work the programme by yourself (if she doesn't agree to join you yet). Rigorously eliminate love busters, including showing quiet fury at her for her behaviour. This fury, and despair, shines through in your posts, and it won't help your marriage. Be devoted to UA time out of the house. Turn her feelings around, and once she is in love with you, she will be motivated to eliminate her own love busters.

This is what I suspect, but I think you need to hear from Dr Harley directly, and you don't need to get her agreement for that. Write him an email now, describing how things have changed since she gave up binge drinking but replaced it with secret smoking, and how estranged you have been for a long time.

SugarCane, Thank you for the post. You have hit on some very key points and I'd like to respond appropriately. I am at work right now and can't so I will try to respond later on tonight.

SC,

I haven't talked MB with my W at all. She isn't a fan of many parts of the program and actually dislikes this place based on events of the past.

The reason she started smoking was because she was upset with me. She felt betrayed that I, due to advice provided here, spoke to the kids about her, her drinking and how close I was to filing for divorce. She didn't see it as necessary and only as a betrayal, away to gang up on her. Her words. I know that not to be true, that she was merely upset because everyone was looking at her in a less than glamorous light. Don't mess with her children is her mantra. Doesn't change the fact that her and I don't see eye to eye on my decision to talk with them. She's also asked me now to not tell the kids about her smoking.

Now, despite the fact she doesn't agree with the program doesn't mean I can't follow it. She has benefited greatly by me participating here and getting coaching and advice from Dr Harley directly. She may not see it that way but if it's filling her bank hopefully it won't matter. The end game is what is important.

Up until the moment I spoke to the kids about divorce I had been working MB to the best of my abilities. She went cold and dark and spent most of her time away from me. I too then withdrew. I am so tired of being punished when asking her to not hurt me. I had had enough and simply gave up. I spent the last 2 years just making due the best I could without an intimate relationship with her. Sad to say she had already started smoking behind my back. Seems she wasted no time replacing one bad behavior with another.

Her one complaint has been that she doesn't like riding in the car with me and that was one lovebuster I was fixing when all of this went down. In the last 2 years I didn't do MB at all. I wasn't mean simply civil. We were roommates. When we talked a few days ago when I confronted her during the conversation she again mentioned the driving thing. I told her then that I didn't want a divorce. That I wanted to give this thing another shot. We hugged, she said she was sorry and I said the same. I promised I would eliminate the driving behaviors that cause her anxiety. She may have forgotten I had already done this 2 years ago. I asked her to provide me with a list of things she needs and things I need to stop. I am still waiting for the list. To your point SC I don't think she wants to work a program. She wants our relationship to be more organic. For now I will continue to work my side of the program. I agree writing Dr Harley again is a good idea. I haven't had a conversation with him since we discussed talking to my children about her drinking and divorce.

To provide a little more context her and I have had no issues in the last week being close to each other. We are hugging and kissing and saying I love you. We are trying to find things to do together and have had some success. I am filling the needs I believe she needs filled which are affection, admiration, conversation and domestic support ( DS was the ONLY thing I have been doing the last 2 years).

Taking inventory I believe my needs have shifted a bit. SF may no longer be #1. It's no fun getting older. Recreational Companionship is moving up the ladder as is affection and admiration. I have discussed RC with her but I probably need to provide some information on what I need from a SF, affection and admiration perspective.

I really, really, really want her to quit smoking. It's not only a bad habit but it's now a reminder of the betrayal. I told her the smoking was a deal breaker. I have to decide how long I am willing to wait for her to stop. She's cutting back first she says.

Mr Alias,

Is it possible you are being gaslighted here?
She started smoking, because she felt let down because you were complaining about her drinking?
Really?

Is she willing to work on the marriage, or just giving you enough hope to keep you haning around?

I hope you will get some good advice from Dr. H

HH, I'm quite certain it's not that.

She started smoking because she doesn't like feeling like she's being told what to do and also says she felt betrayed because I discussed our situation with the kids. Everyone then knew i was contemplating D if she didn't quit drinking. She felt it was wrong to stress them out.

If I had to summarize her it's that she doesn't want to follow a plan as it is something that is telling her what to do. She wants a good marriage, appreciates much of what I do but struggles meeting my most important needs for one reason or another.

One thing I forget to mention is she tends to withhold information so having a PORH would certainly help. I fear I've done enough in the past when she has that she now no longer feels safe revealing everything she's thinking.

Last night I did explain what I need to be happy. She said she knows.

I am struggling to keep my focus forward at times. To not dwell. It's hard as the hurt from her deceit is so fresh. Knowing it's been 2 years...ugh. However I feel I'm doing exactly what I need to give this one last shot.

I will write to Dr Harley today.

I haven't had time to write Dr Harley yet.

I have tragic news. Over the weekend my father was killed in a bicycling accident. He couldn't see too well and peddled through a stop sign where he was struck by a car.

My wife and I have been doing well taking care of each other. I need to let this dust settle before I move back to our relationship.

I'm so very sorry to hear about the loss of your father, especially in such a sudden and unexpected tragedy. My prayers are with you and your family during this time.

Do you still plan to write Dr. Harley with your concerns?

I'm so sorry to hear such devastating news. My prayers for your family.

I'm so very sorry for your loss. My prayers are with you and your family.

Thank you for all of the kind words. It has been a rough couple of weeks. Even though I didn't get to see my father often I thought he'd live forever and that once retired him and I would have some great father and son times together. No regrets but I feel bad I didn't make the effort to go visit him in AZ more.

My wife and I are acting in a loving way towards each other. We're both wanting to keep the marriage and make it be a good marriage. We've had some pretty serious talks and in those talks I explain how the MB concepts, I believe, are the way for me to have a great marriage. She continues to dispute many of the concepts and it appears isn't willing to put them into practice. I, on the other hand, have done it since the day I made the commitment to give this one last shot.

Meanwhile she is addicted to cigarettes once again. I don't have a lot of faith that she'll be able to kick it. It took a kidney stone while pregnant last time to quit.

I believe that is what I need to talk to Dr Harley about. The fact that I need my Bank filled and want her to eliminate LBs yet she states those concepts don't work for her. She continually asks me why her smoking and drinking diet soda impacts how I feel about her. That I should love her for the person she is, not for what she does to her own body.

What's worse is that our conversations always lead to "Yeah well I may do that but you do this." kind of talk. And I've repeatedly have told her please please please if there is something I need to do or stop to make me a better husband then tell me. I am willing to change anything.

I hope to write to Dr Harley in the next day or two.