Stillcommitted said

It will be a bit late when the event is over.

However, I came across a discount coupon for one of the last nights of a local "festival of lights" show. I plan to ask her if she'd like to check it out...

There you go Fred, back in the saddle again!!!!!!

She declined. Not unexpected, as I said, it was pretty late.

However, I did learn another pertinent fact: She's not a spontaneous person, and prefers to plan ahead. We're on for the 15th, and I told her I'd call to make plans. She's going to make a Waldorf Salad. I'll probably make barbecue meat balls...

That sounds great! I'm not very spontaneous either, I used to say if it wasn't on my calendar for two weeks, it's not happening! My late husband was though and that was one of the things I appreciated about him. If you're a "planner", you can tend to work your life away...it's nice to have someone who helps you stop and smell the roses, I learned to appreciate his spontaneity.

A brief update:

She left before we could talk yesterday, but wrote me an email that I got this evening. After I got home tonight, in the beginning of a snow storm, I screwed up my courage and called.

Wow. We spent over an hour on the phone, and it actually seemed to get easier as time went on. At one point I got the sense that she's been through some difficult relationship problems, and that she too, is taking things very cautiously. But we're getting to know each other bit by bit. I like the person I'm getting to know.

We're on for Saturday. I probably won't call her before then. But she said she's usually much better at email than she's been the past few days, so maybe I'll drop her a note between now and the weekend, just to "let her know I've been thinking of her" (not necessarily in those words).

OK, I'm going to ask this question in my own thread rather than start another, but in a way I think it's almost deserving of its own topic.

In a nutshell, is it "fair," "right" or "honorable" to use MB principles while dating?

I was re-reading Dr. Harley's article on the Most Important Emotional Needs and suddenly a thought came to me:

When dating -- especially in during the early stages -- should one try to identify one's date's most important EN, and then attempt to meet them?

There is a part of me that thinks identifying a date's EN helps determine if that date is compatible, in that if one isn't capable of meeting those specific ENs, this is not going to be a good "match."

On the other hand, it seems that one could use this in a manipulative way -- filling a date's Love Bank could influence how that person feels about you, and if you don't feel the same, it could wind up in hurt feelings and heartache.

For those coming in late to this thread, I am in the very early stages of dating. This is the "getting to know you" stage. Being aware of Dr. H's Ten Top ENs though, I think could give me an "unfair advantage" in how things move forward.

Agree or disagree? Discussion, anyone?

I think EN's absolutely should be identified as soon as possible in a relationship, and they should be met. (A person's choice to engage in SF before M is a personal choice that I won't get into.) What better time to determine your compatibility?

I think it's manipulative only if you're planning to 'hook' someone by meeting their needs during dating in order to get married, then you don't bother once the ring is on. Sadly, I think a lot of people unintentionally do that very thing when they're dating.

Fred, I'm new here, but I have read most of your main thread about the end of your marriage. I agree with maritalbliss, that it's only manipulative if you're doing it in order to manipulate.

After a marriage with a BPD, you are probably overly sensitive to anything that smacks of manipulation because that's how you XWW hooked you. She lied about herself in an effort to meet your ENs. She took up YOUR hobbies and pretended to like things that you like because women like that are chameleons.

While I don't think it's wrong to try to identify someone else's needs, you also need to be sure that you're not misrepresenting who you are while you seek to fulfill the other person's ENs.

Of course, I haven't been on a date with anyone other than my stbxh since 1983, so I'm not an expert.

Fred, lets assume it takes 3 months to begin to know someone well enough to decide if you want to have an exclusive relationship. At that time, when you become exclusive, then you can begin to work the emotional needs.

But until then, you can be throwing oxygen on a smoldering flame and then when the oxygen is removed, it goes back to smoldering, and its not a hot relationship anymore.

I appreciate everyone's responses so far. I guess what I'm trying to do is achieve some level of balance. As some of you know, I've been "off balance" for a while -- partly thrown that way by WxW, and partly because I so lack experience in being "in balance" anyway.

Case in point: I wrote an email to woman #1 last night. I listed some upcoming cooking classes, including dates, menus, etc. She had sent me dates that she was going to dancing class and would be unavailable, so I sent only "free" dates based on her info.

Striking a tone between being friendly but not overly so, and being matter-of-fact about the cooking class dates was extremely difficult for me. I did say something about looking forward to spending time with her, but "being balanced" just did not feel like it came naturally.

You folks not only helped me get through the difficulties of dealing with my BPD WxW, but now you've become my dating coaches. You know that, don't you?

Yeah, we know.

Fred, you once again have brought up an interesting topic of discussion and I certainly have some thoughts on it I'd like to share when I get a minute, but first, to the above quote:
I still would rely on total and utter honesty. I have been on dates with a few different women since the D was final and had success with it. With each I have just come out and said things like "if I get too eager to talk to you or if I'm bugging you I trust that you'll let me know - please keep in mind that I'm new to this whole dating thing and really have no idea what I'm doing." The positive responses have been in the realm of "just be honest with me and say what's on your mind." I get the impression most (some) women would rather date an honest, sincere (if anxious) bumbling idiot, than a slick, smooth, professional serial dater/player.

Also the upfront honesty thing lets you see how she'll react to you once she really gets to know you anyway. If she don't like it, she ain't for you. No harm no foul.

And let's face it - nothing's really going to "come naturally" when you haven't had any practice. right?

Anyway, hope I'm not pointing out the obvious here; I think you're doing fine. I just think it's okay to let her know you're not sure about the dating process - - it doesn't demonstrate a lack of self-confidence, just a lack of experience with something you really shouldn't have a lot of experience with anyway at this stage, having just D'd. kwim?

Opt

--I still have some thoughts on your topic of discussion "using MB/emotional needs in dating".... tbc

Thanks, opt.

Maybe you're pointing out the obvious (I'd like to think you're pointing out the "proper") but so what? It's what confirms my own thoughts, worries not withstanding.

There have been times when I *have* been honest and upfront about my supposed awkwardness. She knows my WxW -- not well, but they've met -- and I've skirted around the topic of the breakup. But she knows the major details, since I've shared that in meetings, so it's not like she's oblivious. I just don't think talking about my last relationship in depth is a good move now.

But to your main point, I think I've been completely honest in the things I've said and done with her. Even when it takes me out of my "comfort zone." As you said, her responses to my honesty are the best determinant to whether I want to continue seeing her. And she me, I'd say.

Great Fred, glad things are progressing then. I would definitely leave any talk of Leapord off the list of things to talk about. If she brings it up just answer and change the subject to demonstrate that it has no bearing on anything related to you and your date.

So I�ve been thinking a lot about the concept of bringing knowledge of MB principles to the dating world and I believe it is not only unavoidable, but perhaps even essential. Unavoidable in that it�s something we�ve all learned and studied (avoiding LB�ers and identifying/meeting the most important EN�s for instance). But also completely okay to utilize � IF we�re looking for LTR�s (which I think is the case for most of us here � I ain�t no player that�s for sure).

Dr. Harley says he can help ANY two people create a loving marriage by teaching them to meet each other�s most important emotional needs and thereby keeping them �in love� with each other (or keeping their LB balances above the romantic threshold). So, to me, the easiest way to have someone be in love with you is to find out what their EN�s are and meet them. If the persons most important EN�s are �easy� for you to meet (for instance if FS is one and you happen to be inexhaustibly rich) �then you�re in luck. So, during dating I believe there should be a process of identifying the needs and then evaluating what your ability is to meet them. IOW, you are USING your knowledge of MB principles to predict the chances of success for a potential relationship.

As someone else said, if you have no intention of going LT with a person and you use the above ideas to gain some sort of advantage insincerely over the person, then that is not right. I would expect this road leads to regret for both involved.

Of course from your side of it, you are constantly looking to your �date� for her potential to meet your most important EN�s. If one is FS and she�s dirt poor, probably not a good match. Or if one is DS and she�s a total slob, that�s a good sign things might not work. I had a vague sense from the beginning with my ex that she would EVENTUALLY become someone that would meet my need for SF; never happened and always was an issue � and we all know where that lead to. In retrospect she might have felt the same way about my ability to satisfy her need for FS, but once the kids came, my income level (and aspirations to excel in that area) leveled off.

Those are some of my thoughts on using MB principles during the dating phase of a relationship.
Maybe others with agree/disagree or add/subtract.

Opt

ITA, opt.

The only bearing The Leopard has on my dating this woman is that her absence allows me to date in the first place.

Only twice has she popped up in the course of conversation, and then only peripherally. The first was when we were speaking of the lack of loyalty these days and I made a passing comment about "in relationships, too." The second was when we were talking about pets and I made mention that my cat was "leftover."

Other than that, neither of us has said much of anything about previous relationships. We're both old enough to know that we've both had them, and that they have no bearing on our dating (children, etc.). Or at least that they shouldn't.

I think you're way ahead of the other guys in the dating scene because of your thorough knowledge of MB.

Some lucky lady is going to get a real catch...

Okay coaches, here comes the next n00bie question. #1 (I don't know how else to refer to her; abbreviations abound here, but there isn't one for "date candidate number X" that I can find) had our second date this weekend. We went to a mutual friend's combined anniversary/birthday party and potluck.

We had a good time, but didn't really get to spend much time with each other.

So...

The week before I emailed her twice and called her once. Each communication had a purpose; the emails were to present some options for the "cooking class" date and the phone call to confirm the time I would pick her up, etc.

I spoke with her briefly in person this evening, and she acknowledged receiving my emails (I had sent her photos taken during our first date). I'm a little bothered that she didn't reply to the emails, which leads me to my question (see subject line):

Ladies, if a man is interested in you, how often should he try to contact you so that you know his interest is there without becoming a pest? (Guys, you can weigh in, too).

Email seems less intrusive, as one can read and reply when the mood and time fit. A phone call is more personal, of course.

Sigh. It's all about balance. I've struggled for decades with balance.

I was flipping through the lastest topic screen, and saw Freds post, so I wanted to see how he was doing, and read about 4 pages of this thread.

I have been built up and inspired from what I have read from everyone. Life does go on. Everything said is such good advice from great people. Good friends with the right encouragement.

I'm not ready for dating, and the key for me will be not to look to hard, or worry about it. Being over 50 also, and learning to take care of myself better, along with the realization that now that the drama has receded, I am enjoying my life more, and thats enough for me right now.

I do though believe some day in the future,(No timetable), I might find another relationship appealing. Hearing everyones storys, thier concerns, thier hopes and fears, and recognizing them as being in myself also at times, has made me feel so much more normal, and that I am not so different after all.

Fred highlighted something once I said in a post, "If you want to be healthy, hang around healthy people" , Boldly and said it should be a sign.

Thanks for this thread, and thanks for being so normal guys, and healthy too.

Ask her Fred, Thats a perfectly normal question and very different for most women also. I would politely ask her, and thats the etiquette I would honor..I can tell you this simple truth.

You don't have anything to be afraid of, you can work out any details after you ask, you are a smart, sensitive, man that can handle it.

Ok no more dating advice from me lol. Good luck Guys, Thanks again for this thread...

Duh...

See? That's why I come here and ask you folks. I'm like a prepubescent teenager at times.

Now, how to frame the question...

Actually, we may be having a date this Saturday. She offered to volunteer at a dance but hasn't been notified that she's been selected. If not, we're going to go out. And this time we'll have plenty of "alone together" time.

That gives me at least five days to think of a way to ask. And maybe more...

Fred,

join the club,
each woman is unique and different.

I have had chatty woman and one liners. my latest date is a one liner. the prior date was a bit chattier but after a certain period, only responded, didn't initiate. seldom responded to text messages. . .

so i took that as a not as interested, keep looking. .. she hasn't responded in a month to my last email. i take that as a not that into me. . .

so, i just keep fishing, being OUTCOME independent. . . that is the key. . outcome independent. . .

wiftty