What would happen if you pushed yourself for a bit and started to be 'successful' (whatever successful is for you and your wife). And then your wife became enthusiastic about SF? No expectations...just research to see if it works.

The worse that could happen is it doesn't work. And then you can go back to being unhappy.

Hold This can not be true. Remember your bad joke that started this latest round? The joke was intended to be critical.

Previous qoute:

>>>I have told her for the past 15+ years that I am unhappy and for the past 6 have said I cannot see past the kids graduation. We had marriage counselling sessions where she said "he just said he is leaving when the kids leave".She knows exactly where she stands. If not, it is because she won't allow herself to know. Not because I haven't told her.

Just yesterday she said something like "I never realized that side of our life was such an epic fail for you". Really? Never realized? After 8 years of marriage counselling? After countless private conversations? You thought I was PRETENDING to be unhappy about our sex life? REALLY?!?!?<<<

THIS IS A LIFE TIME OF CRITICISM!!!

Do you really expect to get a different outcome from continuing to do the same thing?

Correct. I do criticize her. Point taken.


No, I don't. That is the point. I don't expect to ever get a different outcome.

Kilted_thrower said try at work, have some success, see if wife provides more SF. BTDT. Made partner at my last firm. No change. In fact, that is part of why I started actively complaining. I was doing well at work. She was not working outside the home. I was paying for someone to help her with the kids. And we were not having sex. I understood her being tired with a baby at home. But we didn't even have sex when we went on vacation for a week. That was when I insisted we do MC. Result: no sex, weight gain, huge overspending, and lying about it.

I took the job here to make more money. No change in our sex life. She complained we didn't go on vacation enough. So we went on a cruise. No sex (well, we tried once but she made me stop partway through). We went to Europe. No sex.

So no, I don't expect a better outcome. Whether I continue the same things. Or whether I change.

I tend to agree Hold, I do not see any correlation there between how much money you earn and your wifes sex drive.

I am going fishing for a week so you can have a few days peace.

Hi Hold,
I'm new to MB and have been reading Dr. Harley's books and the boards. Noticed you are from Ct...what part? You mentioned having done counseling. Wonder if you have recommendations on that and on lawyers.

Enjoy your trip Jack.

JSI: The Harleys do coaching over the phone. It doesn't matter where you are. Just click the button at the top of the page to get help.

As for lawyers, so far we have not needed a divorce lawyer. I don't do that type of law, so I am not very familiar with who has the best reputation around here. Sorry I can't be of more help in that regard.

Talk to Mrs. Hold about the kids. Helped her with her homework (her teacher hides the ball and hasn't updated some of the questions lately so web links and cites are outdated). Other than that we basically don't speak and don't spend any time together. When she talks to me she is snarky. The kids are starting to notice that she ignores pretty much everything I say.

I know we need UA time. I am trying to summon the courage to get back in the relationship. I am so conflicted. Time together leads to me wanting sex. I don't want to want sex. The sex we have is not bonding for me anymore. I feel worse after than before. I don't know how to raise that with Mrs. Hold without making it even worse. And I don't want to feel like a fool who meets her needs without asking for anything back in return.

Hey, Hold, when was the last time you took your wife out on a date, or for a weekend getaway, just the two of you? I know when things have been strained between me and my H, getting out of the house and doing something fun together without the kids helps tremendously. Do something you both enjoy. Just relax and have fun, no pressure. Don't talk about the relationship. Come on, I dare you to ask your wife out on a date.

I understand the feeling Hold and for the first time in my marriage I suddenly am feeling much the same way.

Both of you married very selfish, manipulative, material money grubbing women who don't want to work very hard in the marriage or at anything else. These women have you wrapped in guilt, shame, and low self esteem and cowering in fear at thier feet as they walk all over you and continually push over your weak personal boundaries.

Time to man up,, be courageous, and start leading your marriages into being better. Both spouses must POJA things, and fill each other's needs. Both must strive for romantic love though one spouse can begin this process.

Bubbles, Hold's wife has a job, is studying and has lost 50lb. That gets a big tick from me.

She is also supportive, attractive, outgoing and can not be bought.

Did I mention she lost 50lb?

Jack, my wife is a great lady. She has very much gotten her act together. My birthday wish for her was for her to have as good a year next year as she had this past year.

But you are wrong about one thing. She can be bought. She wants to be bought. I simply cannot afford her.

Gawd I hate the term "man up" it's so insulting and degrading.

Hold has lost the respect of his wife. Trying to please her by making more money is not the answer for either of them and will not begin to solve thier marriage problems.

I totally agree bubbles. Money is not the anwser.

Hold, the impression I have of your wife, I (rightly or wrongly) read from your posts


It does not seem from your post that a fancy life style makes any difference to your relationship. You have not shown any evidence that money is her sole motivation.
If your wife had run off with an old koot that had $100M then I would agree with you.
It seems from your posts that it has always been your problem rather than your wifes. There has been some reckless spend but plenty of people can do that.
I continue to bang on about this because it is a thought patern that society bangs into us that simply is not true. I have seen the contrary just too many times.
Money is an advantage, sure. But money will never win by itself. It is always a disaster for the man who tries to do it with money.

We all have fairytale dreams when we are young. I think your wife sees the world differently now. I wonder if you can?

I agree with you. It is possible she does. But I can't.

I was miserable before I met her. I remain miserable. That is the constant.

Her refusal to have sex with me during our honeymoon did not help matters. It created a dynamic we cannot break out of. But it did not cause my lack of confidence. That already existed. Her behavior merely confirmed, for me, that there is no hope for me. If even the woman I agreed to marry and support and bear and raise children with does not find me attractive, then no woman will. Nothing in my life since then has shaken that core belief. I don't expect anything ever will.

And it goes without saying that if women will never find me sexually attractive, then there is no point in making an effort to succeed at work. You see, despite my verbiage here, I actually live by the perspective you espouse. I don't believe woman will want me even if I had more money, or that anything good would come of it if they did. So I don't bother to make more money. Since women finding me sexually attractive is, after all, the only reason to do anything in life.

I am guessing that last part is where our views diverge.

Hold, perhaps it's your total lack of self confidence and your self-deprecating demeanor that your wife does not find attractive. I don't know many women who would be attracted to a man who has such a low opinion of himself. Something for you to consider at least.

Writer, that is undoubtedly a big part of the problem. I understand that women are attracted to confident, positive and optimistic men. I have never been that. Never will be that. Hence my despair that any woman will find me attractive. Hence my extreme reluctance to leave Mrs. Hold, and my expectation that she will eventually choose to leave me.

MelodyLane posted on another thread:


I am not doing anything to resolve it. That is why I view any attempt to improve my marriage pointless. I have to work on me first. And I don't want to work on me.


I don't have many complaints about my marriage these days. My complaints are with myself. MB cannot help me with that. Or put differently, for MB to work, I would have to be willing to change my own behavior. I am not willing to do that. Hence no point in implementing MB. I am only willing to talk, not to negotiate changed behavior.

And as for your comment that it is never too late, I disagree. Perhaps a person can always choose to improve themselves. But there is no guarantee that their spouse will stick around to wait for that. Or will remain open to reciprocating. Years ago I was open to changing if Mrs. Hold also changed (Renter mentality). Now I am not (Freeloader mentality). So it is now too late for Mrs. Hold to choose to work on our marriage. Because I am not open to becoming a Buyer. Much more work than I am willing to invest.

Oh, and just so we can put a stake in the "Hold is a good husband" idea, I forgot that today is Mrs. Hold's birthday. Yes, I got her cards and signed them. Yes, I bought her a present. But I am away from home on a business trip today (bad enough, but she supports my career 100% - more than I do in many ways - so she said the trip was OK with her). When I called home, I forgot to say Happy Birthday. Twice. Finally around 5:00 I remembered. Turns out the kids had forgotten as well. So very bad day for Mrs. Hold on the love front. My very bad.

Nothing could communicate more clearly how I feel about her (and don't). Early in our marriage I made a very big deal about her birthday, Valentine's Day, our anniversary, etc. Now, today, I completely ignored it. Nuff said.