Yup, this is truth.

Why NOT try this, nothing else seems to be working.

Well before I try this I'd better due my part of getting back on the program. We go in there now and all my issues will be my fault because I haven't been doing the things necessary to create romantic love. Trouble is I just don't feel it right now. I am actually at a point in my life where I have to go through the motions until I get back to that feeling.

Well then...maybe this will be the first time you and your wife enter a program as equals...wherein both of you (instead of just her) will be expected to/asked to "go through the motions" until you both get back that "feeling".

Both of you will have to take a leap of faith.

I don't know...just a thought. The difference MAY matter. I don't typically post in these situations but I wish you luck.

Mr. W

I disagree. Don't wait to call the Harleys until you feel you are doing a good job of avoiding LBs and meeting ENs. Accept that you can't (won't) do that without their help. It is like the First Step in 12 step programs. Accept that you are powerless to fix this yourself, and accept the Harleys help.

Or to put it differently, don't have in the back of your mind that you want to head into MC as the "good" spouse. That you are the one implementing MB, and your spouse is the one that needs to get with the program. That is a huge DJ. Better to go in saying "unless my needs get met, I can't be enthusiastic about meeting her ENs, please help motivate both of us to do what we need to do to regain our romantic love for one another."

And suppress the "I could find someone else" thoughts unless you are prepared to Plan B and Plan D. The other person is only relevant after you divorce. For now, you are comparing your wife's reality to a fantasy hypothetical woman who lives only inside your imagination. If you aren't leaving (at least for now), banish the ghost.

You should both start this together, rather than apart. You will both be going through the motions to get back that feeling. It will be easier for you to meet her needs if she meeting yours, and vice versa. But I think the most important thing is to have a plan that includes you BOTH.

Finding someone else will not resolve this problem either. If you don't know to create and maintain the romantic in this marriage, you won't in another marriage. Might as well just learn how to do it where you are at.

Thanks Hold and ML.

I'll see what I can do about asking my wife about the counseling. The money isn't there so I doubt she'll be up for it. And I don't dare throw the D word around to her to justify it because I doubt I'm getting one anytime soon.

I'll banish the ghost.

mrAlias, they won't counsel you together anyway so you don't need her there to do it. What Steve or Jennifer will do is tell you what to say to persuade her to get on the phone alone with them. But they will counsel you alone.

Good luck!

So in other words they will counsel me to get back on board with the MB principles and concepts but also help me get my wife to counsel with them.

I suspect my wife will say no no matter what I or anyone says. She doesn't need anyone telling her what, if any, plan she needs to follow. She needs me to do this or that and jump up and down on one leg and solve world peace and these other things outside of our control get in the way and ...

ugggghhhhh. I dread the conversation. I dread spending yet more money only to have things put back on me. I like being accountable ... I like being a man of character. However I don't like taking all the blame or bearing the burden of it all.

Seriously I've tried all of the convos where I try to convince her we're not in love enough and that I want things to be better. She just tells me she's sorry it's not good enough and she'll try harder.

ahk. I'm sorry I'm so resistant to your suggestions. I know they are the right suggestions. I'm just having a hard time justifying carrying them out them based on past experience, coupled with freetime and financial constraints. I'd rather just crawl in a hole and pray things work out ... and if they don't. Ah well.

That is not what I am suggesting at all. I am suggesting you let Steve or Jennifer Harley do the selling, instead of you. What you have done is not effective. I am saying you should try something completely and dramatically different this time. If they could sell her on the merits of having a great marriage, then you could do the work yourself with the help of we forum members who have successfully used the program.

And what I'm saying is she will refuse to talk with them. She will just tell me she's sorry it's not good enough and that she'll try harder. I dread the part where I'm going to have to try to convince her it's important enough to me that we should try. She'll look at me like I'm some kind of alien or idiot. Mostly she'll use the all too valid reason .... we can't afford that.

Sadly, I think you will find more pain in withdrawal and having your marriage decline further than you will in stepping into the conflict with your wife and dealing with this issue in a much more open and honest manner.

I've found that when I'm stretched to the limit on my patience, and I start lovebusting it gets worse.

It can always get worse.

So do the hard thing. Have it out. Lay it on the line. And get help. If that means a few months without buying lunches - instead packing it with you, I think you'll find the payoff worth it.

You can always find the money for what you value most - even on a shoestring budget.

Thanks KA,

I realize withdrawing is painful ... I've been living it for over 6 months now. It sucks.

As far as finding the money? It'll go on a card which already has way too large of a balance or I'll use part of this year's bonus to pay for it which would have gone to pay down that balance or I'll forego the physical therapy I need to help with my tendonitis and plantar fasciitis so I can use my flex spending acct. None of these look like great options to me. So I'm finding I have to balance my unhappiness alongside the health of our financial situation. Better to be a martyr then be broke. I'm hoping my wife starts to get more hours in this new job she's working and I also hope she persues another job where our neighbor works. She's put in a good word for my wife and I think the job could be her's when it opens up.



Yes and I'm kind of at the point where I'm questioning just what it is I value most. Sounds kind of dramatic I know but while I've been in withdrawal all kinds of notions and ideas have floated around in my head.

As you're weighing things in the balance, consider the pain you're avoiding will hurt worse than you can imagine.

As you step back into the conflict and get open and honest with her, the two of you can come up with ideas to come up with the money together rather than you play martyr.

Of course, if you are getting something out of the martyr pity party, by all means continue. It's kind of a warped and twisted way to meet an emotional need for significance, isn't it?

It's a lovebuster when someone plays that card in my world and I quickly want to separate from the person doing it.

Maybe your wife is different. But it's a passive aggressive way of manipulating her. It's more likely to backfire and make things worse.

But it's your life, your world. Whatever trips your trigger.

MA, I am not asking you to try to persuade her yourself, but to let Steve or Jennifer tell you what to say to get her involved. I know Steve is very good at providing talking points that are effective in getting the reluctant spouse on the phone and then selling her on the merits of having a great marriage.

We already know you have tried to persuade her and have failed. That is why I am suggesting trying something different. You have been here for 8 years with no improvement. Try something different!!

Oh trust me I've consider my motivations for doing what I've been doing. I'm I trying to manipulate her or protect myself from further aggravation and heartbreak? Maybe both. At the end of the day it is probably and ineffective form of a Plan B. And maybe that's where I failed ... I didn't plan. Truth is when August rolled around last year I had had enough and had already withdrawn from her. I only spoke to her about what's important and rarely had intimate conversations with her. I had stopped doing all the great things I was doing for her up to that point. It was too painful to get nothing in return. I started to focus on what I wanted and was less concerned about what she wanted. So was I being passive-aggressive??? No I think I had started down the path of where I knew I wasn't going to spend the rest of my life with her. I was planning for the day the kids were out of the house.

Once down that path she has/had every option to do what she wanted to either end the R or seek to improve it. She chose neither from what I can gather. I told her then, finally, in August that I had withdrawn and that I felt we were slipping apart. That her inability to meet my needs or even ACKNOWLEDGE the lack of meeting my needs on a regular basis was hurting me too much and I was done trying to get what I needed from it.

Thanks Melody,

I am giving your suggestions serious consideration.

To buttress KA's comment, Mrs. Hold announced today that she does not feel emotionally safe with me, so sex is off the table. I understand why. But think about it. That means she feels even less inclined toward sex than she has the last 18 years. And it means we have an even higher mountain to climb to get back together. So if you think your going into withdrawal can't make it worse, you are wrong. Your wife can become even more averse to sex than she is now.

At that point I didn't care if it made it worse. I wasn't planning on having sex with her anymore. I even turned her down a couple of weeks ago for the 1st time ever. I was done. I felt alone and depressed but had a plan to ride it out in withdrawal until I was prepared to leave. Roommates until the end. Then I came here evidentally because being in withdrawal and feeling alone isn't really where I want to be.

I've since changed my tune and am doing the things I need to to not make matters worse. Question is whether or not I trust my wife that this "start fresh" comment she made is her speaking the truth ... that things will be different. Either way I have to decide if taking this marriage back to counseling is the right thing to do.

Hi Mr. Alias (and Hold, and all),
I haven't been on this site in ages, but look in from time to time. I have been in a fantastic "marriage" to a wonderful woman for quite a few years now. I use quotes because it is a marriage of our own creation, with trusts and powers of attorney, not with state license. She is ten years my junior, and she is amazing, sexy, giving, hard working, and the best friend I've ever had. I only say this as a matter of catching up with my friends here, not as a point of discussion.

I had to write because my previous marriage, the one that brought me here, was a lot like yours, in a way, and probably a lot worse. Some may remember.

What I wanted to say is that your wife will never change. She is who she is, and you have to make the decision to accept her or make a move in another direction. It really ends up being that simple.

In my previous marriage, I got really twisted up about the lack of sex, her constant unlimited spending, and the awful feeling of loneliness I had when I was with her. She would be kind and loving to everyone, while ignoring me(in my view). My ex was/is very beautiful, and she gave herself to those in need. But she never saw my needs. I was the walking wallet.

I was angry every day. Just like you, I couldn't believe she didn't see what she was doing to me. All the while, she was content with the status quo.

Looking back on it, I realize that all of that anger, resentment, and snivelling over sex got me nowhere. I was spinning my wheels. Our relationship was in a stalemate. I felt like a child, even though I'm a great guy with a great career.

The divorce was the hardest, most excruciating thing I've ever gone through.
It made me stronger, though, and really opened my eyes to how much power a woman has in a marriage. This ain't the fifties anymore.

I guess I just really feel for guys like us who have been in this situation. We do the right thing, and we ask for little, but so many times we are taken for granted. It really blows.

Mr.Alias, I would put the hopes of a wild sex life on the back burner right now. You need to heal, and get back to your confident old self. I know it's hard when you are basically living a monk's life, but there are ways. I, myself, have non-MarriageBuilder-approved philosophies about what guys like you and Hold should do, but that's just me.

The point is, you have to step back and take and get to a state of mind where you can be yourself again. Your wife definitely will not submit favorably to a snivelling, whining guy who is constantly at her to get him off. I only say this because that's probably how she sees it. She does not at all understand.

Get on top of your career (I'm a software engineer, too.) Get working out on a constant basis. Lose some weight and get looking as good as you can. This is not for your wife, but for you. Also, working out does wonders for your moods.

Get out of the house more. She's got her horse thing, so you do whatever makes you happy. Get a little more assertive in your role around the house. Don't be a whining malcontent. Women hate that.

Allow yourself to enjoy looks from other women. This is not illegal, and it gives you a nice little boost. Think about them when you have "self time". And have lots of self time!! Don't worry if your wife knows or not. This is all about you.

By the middle of this summer you could be a carefree, in-shape stud with a damn good career. Your wife will notice this, for one. It's kind of a indirect Plan A.

And one other thing, never feel like things will never get better. You can have whatever you want. It may not be an easy path to get there, but it is still true.

My rotten ex-marriage is all in the past now. That was my path. And I am smashingly, uncompromisingly, ecstatically, happy now. Every day is better than the previous one. We're in love still, even after almost eight years of being together.

I hope you pick yourself up and get to work on yourself. It could be a really good summer for you!

I'm happy to hear that your live-in arrangement is working so beautifully for you.