Fred, I've been following along but limited in time and my home computer's busted but I wanted to ask you something about the above discussion.
There seems to be some concern for the counterpart's feelings, but what about yours? If you are someone that likes to be in contact with a person you're interested in quite frequently, then is it legit to say "this one won't do it for me in terms of my need for regular communication"? I realize in the opening stages of dating someone you might not really get a good picture
of what that might be, but you get some idea most likely.
Just thinking we (definitely including myself) tend to try to please and maybe forget ourselves...

just a thought
Opt

I'm not sure there's a one-size-fits-all answer. Each person might have a different answer. Me? I would probably respond to each email a guy sent me that I was interested in. However, other things might affect that...how busy I was at the time, how many emails he sent, etc. I wouldn't want bombarded with email. And it depends upon how far into the relationship you are. If you just met or went out once, maybe 2-3 times a week...I wouldn't want to move too fast. If you've known each other a while, it could be a bit more, but I don't think I'd want a daily barrage where it felt like a "have to respond". The point is to pique her interest but not feel like a pest. And a lot depends upon how short/long the emails are and how interesting. I'd say keep them short.

Im just sharing some thoughts about this statement, take what works for you Fred.

Reminds me of nature, sorry I am not trying to minimize Man or Womans Character, but at the beginning stages I think of a male bird creating an atmosphere, being colorful, to attract a female. Yeah we extend ourselves sometimes to what we belive we want to be for a woman, even what we should be we feel, and even in that there are good positive character building efforts at self-improvment. But we just gotta be honest, can we really provide what they are asking?, are we ready, and is what they are desiring what we want also. I believe that women look for atmosphere in a relationship, and that it is a natural drive. Us guys internallly know this, and want to support them in thier dreams also, hoping they line up with ours, and we also see thier heart as close to the same. But it is so important that we are representing the right impression of who we are, and it takes that confidance in ourselves to do that, and then she chooses us.

Having that confidance and stability in who we are and what we want, is all we can bring, and it is attractive to those who want the same, and also fosters respect and confidance under who's protection a woman is willing to trust herself to.

Remember the conversation on one of my threads with Kay, Greengables, and you when I was asking about future relationships? The topic of confidance came up. Also When I asked about wondering if and when I was ready, you had a point that really struck home with me. You said If I didn't feel ready, I wasn't. Thanks for that, it was releasing. Brought me out of the mindset I had something to prove at this stage of my life. I'm not ready, and thats realistic, and my confidance will not be genuine until I am.

But responding really to the statement above, us men can sometimes rush our need for companionship and stress ourselves out before we have the confidance to move forward, and of course confidance comes from inside, but also from support from people we trust, and thinking things through in a calm rational way with those people. We are not an island unto ourselves, and friendship is the most valuable part of our relationship with the other sex IMO. What the question is to me, do you think you can be a good freind? If you know you can be, and have confidance in that, you have the relationship game down. There really is nothing to fear. Now its just working on the communication and sharing of dreams and goals, with honesty and sincerity, and not overextending yourself.

Its hard being on that stage, because we all need relationships and friends. If you are treating yourself and being your own good friend, I see no reason why you can't do the same for anybody else. Just stay true to yourself, and trust yourself, and in that of course, trusting God first. Your an awesome guy Fred IMO, and have been through the wringer.

When I picked up my BPD wife from the state she was living in after she has stopped drinking, (it took 6 mos and rock bottom first), and I was moving her back to the town where I lived, not to be with her but because she had burned out all her help and I had to help because her home town was full of triggers, she said, "I have been talking to Pastor and he said to me, "Just be his freind right now". Funny that was what I allways wanted, never expected more and thought that was what I was to her. It is clear to me that she expected something different than what I was, and also that I was barely ready for a relationship, and might have overextended myself in my desire to heal the past.

Its funny, when I met second wife, I had allready planned my future out and a seriuos relationship was not even considered because I knew I wasn't ready. She chased me and convinced me it would be different, also portraying herself in a way she hoped she could be, and aspired to, but neither of us were ready. I bought it too, because I wanted to share in the heady dreams we both had, and took on the challange.

Thats not your story Fred, but the statement above really struck home with me. Us guys are naturally driven to lead, and take control of circumstances and atmophere that makes for security in our relationships, and take on the challanges that life throws at us as they come. Reminds me of that line in the serenity prayer, "and the wisdom to know the difference".

Opt, KayC and CP, thank you for your well-considered responses. Rather than reply to each separately, I'll combine my response into one, and let you each pick out the portions that apply.

First, opt, I was thinking much along the lines you spoke of just today. Is Candidate#1 (C1) meeting my EN? Honestly, I don't know. Your comments made me think more on this, and I'll say more below. This also addresses KayC's comment, I think.

CP, you've struck a nerve with your comments, too. Confidence is something I feel like I've always lacked when it comes to interacting with women I feel attracted to. I've not had a problem with women in general, but I think I'm afraid that I can be pushed away easily if I don't somehow live up to such a woman's expectations. Combine this with the fecalstorm I went through this past year, dating a woman I'm attracted to has become another learning experience from the ground up.

In my first post on this thread, I mentioned the book that gave this thread its name. Chapter 4 of this book is called, The Art of Communication. Without going into great detail, there are several pages dedicated to common-sense items, but then they come to some areas that are "fuzzy" to me.

There is a sub-section called The Art of Mystery. In brief, this instructs the woman that the man is the "chaser," and that the woman should be chased. Here is one of the short suggestions:

There is more, of course, but we've already spent an hour on the phone - and it didn't feel to me like a marathon!

The answer they don't give is "how often?" They talk about how long (increasing duration the longer the relationship progresses) and make a passing comment

So... how much "more often" is too often?

To wrap up: We went out Saturday to a friend's party. Not a lot of "together time" but we did sit together and chatted periodically. I saw her again Monday and she said she was still not sure if next Saturday was open. Today is Wednesday, and I think I'll give her a call this evening.

Too little?

I would call when ever I had time and felt like it, and the first thing outta my mouth would be, "do you have time to talk?", letting them know I just wanted to spend time with them, and was perfecly fine if they didn't have it.

So that would be my answer to too often.

Great minds think alike, CP.

Every time I've called her so far, I've always asked her "is this a good time?"

I called her this evening, but only got her voice mail. I don't expect a return call, so I'll call again tomorrow (voice mail doesn't count as a call in my book).

I have a suggestion. You could use some of your conversation time with your dates asking these kinds of questions. You could ask questions like, "So, (her name), what's the longest you've ever talked on the phone? Did your ear hurt? Who did you enjoy talking to on the phone the most and why? How much do you like talking on the phone? Morning talker, or evening talker? (I'd also try to throw in something funny). Etc, etc. Get to know her, find out what her preferences are. Each woman is individual, and what answer you may get from us here, may not be what your date likes. I want a man to know me, so I wouldn't mind answering those questions.

I would try to just be honest, with a humerous and lighthearted attitude when you do. Hopefully they will ask you what you like as well. It'll help you build your confidence in knowing what THEY like.

And remember Fred, you need to determine if they can meet YOUR needs, determine if they are someone YOU like. Not "do they, could they, like me?". If they do, you'll probably know it. In fact, that would make for some good conversation....."How do you know when a girl likes you?.........

It looks like I'll have the chance to find out more this weekend.

A short while ago I received an email from her. She missed my call last night because she did not see the message waiting light until she was preparing for bed.

She says she's we're on for Saturday "if the invitation is still open." I replied to her that it was indeed, open, and that I would call her this evening to work out the arrangements.

Updates as they become available...

I'm excited Fred. I am now living vicariuosly through you in this thread..

Reference to Grease, "Tell me more tell me more, does he have a car?" Lol


Seriuosly though, great news buddy, sounds like its going good.

Thanks, CP.

By the way, the saying in your sig line is attributed to Teilhard de Chardin.

Just tryin' to help out in return.

Thanks, I like a complete bibliography.

Okay, I'm smiling now. See?

She called me. I was out at the time but her message said to call her if it wasn't too late. So I did. We spent about 30 minutes on the phone and I broke off the conversation.

I said that I was not sorry that her volunteer offer hadn't been taken up, that I was looking forward to spending time with her on Saturday.

She also said she was looking forward to some "good food and good company."

It was even her suggestion that I pick her up fifteen minutes before the time I suggested, just to "give us enough time." Nice!

Okay, now just to rein myself in before someone else does, I am just happy that so far I don't seem to have done anything wrong. Saturday is going to be our first "real" date -- just her and me for the evening. This should be the date that reveals whether there's potential for more, or if we are just "friend" material...

Lol, and you are looking for????
Sounds like a winner

Yep!

Brush your teeth, and don't wear your stinking running gear,

Hey Fred, don't get too fixated on doing things "right" or figuring out if this woman is datable. Above everything try and have fun with her, the rest will come. And you will make "mistakes" at some point, just remember to be yourself. Here's to a great weekend!

Travis

WHS (What He Said)

Also, remember, you're trying to find out if she's right for you. Your goal should NOT be turning yourself into what she wants.

This shouldn't be too hard to do, Kirby. After all, I don't know (yet) what she wants.



(That she's seen her way to going on a third date with me is enough for me at this point).

LOL!

Not to worry. I've run 20 miles this week and have no plans to run any more. We're supposed to have bitter cold this weekend, anyway (I ran today in a 14�F wind chill).

She runs, too. But mostly on a treadmill (she says temperatures less than 65� are too cold for her to run outdoors).

Stinky running clothes are NOT part of tomorrow's date!

Fred, have a bunch of fun tomorrow night! I agree with what Travis said above. You have a great sense of humor and I know your date will feel lucky that she's spending time with such a nice, respectful guy.

Enjoy yourself, k? and think about how far you've come in just afew months from being nervous to ask a woman out. You're practically a pro now!

Opt