My father has continued to be angry about the no contact between myself, Mrs.Flint and my family and my ex-brother and his family.

We have suggested to my ex-brother that we attend family functions at different times however he will have none of it.

I received the following letter after my youngest son's graduation from basic training as a United States Marine and his return home to visit family.

"Dear Jim,

I don't know about you, but I am getting tired of this situation that our family finds itself in & I am almost certain that most of the family is of the same accord.

We have been torn apart as a family. I think that it's time that DS, DD, DS, DD have an Uncle POS & Aunt BS again. Niece, Nephew need an Uncle Jim & Aunt Mrs.FLint again. Above all, Jim and ex-brother need to be brothers again.

This letter is not to be taken as a precursor to a long discourse, as we have been there, done that& it has brought nothing but anger & resentment. Quite the contrary, it is only a collection of my thoughts.

What this family needs now is peace and reconciliation if for no other reason, it would astonish people.

Thank you for taking the time to read this, Jim.

I love you dearly & always will.

Love,

Dad

And just how many times has he had the situation explained?

I've read your story before, so I have some details, but it has been awhile since I read it. But has your Dad ever had an A?

Or did your brother just manage to sway him?

I'm just trying to figure this out...it makes no sense at all.

I would be tempted to respond:

"I will be happy to be a family again, just as soon as POSB rewinds time and makes his A with my wife un-happen."

....heart wrenching.

Jim, I wish I had more to offer but my heart just aches for you...for me and for any other going through this.

I know how it feels to lose your family. (as you knew it)

Is it typical of your father to sweep stuff under the rug?

jim.
You can't blame your dad his family is broken, It is a plead from him.
I don't know if I could do it, living through my husband's affair, I could not imagine socializing with the OW for any reason, and family is so much tougher.........
You obviously are a forgiving man so I guess you we have to self reflect to see if you could dig deeper, but Jim, no one could blame you............
I have a friend that lives that life and the EA between her husband and his brothers wife, she still crys before family functions the fear exists everytime. Jim that affair happened 20 years ago..........
Is there anything that would be good about that contact again............

I'm so sorry, Jim.

I know how badly I would feel if my mom sent me something similar.

The broken family is all your fault, right?

We know better.

Do you have other siblings?

Jim (praying for you),

Your father needs to know that forcing you to be around the OP and the WS is like forcing you to relive being raped or relive some horrible trauma.

They need to see it WAS destructive what they did, and that it is time for you to live your life and move on from what the pos OP did to your family.

Nc is to be for life, ask your dad this.."Dad, is it healthy and is it good for my marriage that the AFFAIR PARTNER be placed in front of my wife? Forever there is the broken vows, and what has happened cannot be swept under the rug or forgotten."

I'd then be silent and listen to what your dad says. Tell him no bending truths here. No sweeping generalizations of "we have to all get along" and crap like that. He has to answer you and be specific as to WHY you should be forced to be around the ones who tried to pull apart YOUR marriage and nuclear family.

I feel for you. Fwiw, I am going thru something now not similar but similar in feeling pressure. My xil's are demanding that my son see them, and my xh (who is in jail right now) has made the ONLY visitors his parents, and they are saying I am keeping my son from seeing his dad (by not letting him go with his grandparents on a 3 hr drive each way to see him). Problem is, we found out last year that my xfil is on the national watchdog list and is an offender. Thus, we have to have for health, welfare, and safety of my son, nc for life with his grandpa on my xh's side. I truly understand how they put the pressure on you.

Just do what I do. Stand your ground. Don't let them weasel their way around truth. Your pos relative and the affair partner, is trying to foggily re-enter your lives and there is no reason for this to happen, as only bad things will come if you stick the two former affairees in same rooms over and over again at life events.

Jim, it is unfortunate that the blame for what has happened has now rested on your shoulders. You were not the one who committed the crime, you are the victim. It is unfair for anyone to expect you to be the one to bend on what you need to do to recover.

I don't think there is going to be anything that you will be able to say that will sway your father's mind. He wants his family put back together and he is reaching out to the responsible one to make it happen. He doesn't "get" it. He probably also figures that since you have forgiven your wife, you should forgive your ex-brother as well. Even if you do someday forgive him, you won't do it for him, or for your father, you will do it for you. And you won't need to ever speak or see him again to accomplish that forgiveness.

I am CERTAIN that if someone had raped someone else, NO ONE would tell them they needed to talk to their rapist ever again. People who haven't had to deal with an A just can't seem to wrap their heads around it. Also, our society has a warped sense of what we should and shouldn't do to recover from an A. I can't fault your father for what he has done, but I would respond to him carefully.

Hopefully someone who is better at language arts could come up with something spectacular for you to write.

Hello Karmarose and all,

Yes, I have been working for the last almost four and a half years to try and get my dad to understand WHY there cannot be contact between Mrs.Flint and myself and my ex-brother including the written MB concepts. There IS a very good chance that he did have two affairs. I remember my mother screaming those two names over and over again. One was a coworker and one was a neighbor. She never accused him of others, just those two. The neighbor and her husband actually moved ACROSS town when we built our new house to a house TWO doors away.

Kinda looked like a duck then and more so today... He wants NOTHING to do with MB...he just wants his family back and doesn't really care WHO else has to suffer for him to have that back...

Marital Bliss,

Good point, maybe he knows H.G. Wells?

Carka,

Thank you so much for your thoughts. I know you know the pain of double betrayal also and think often of how you are doing also.

Faithful Follower,

Yes, it is typical of EVERYTHING if it doesn't agree with what he wants it to be. Best of all, he is a former MARINE drill sergeant from Korea that makes Ermey from Full Metal Jacket look like a pansy...shaved head and all.

Jessitaylor,

You're right about pleading for his family. I wish he would have knocked some sense into my brother when he was a kid the way he did me...

I have though about the possibility of contact and it makes me physically ill to think of seeing my brother alone let alone in the same room as my wife. It's not going to happen.

Even if Mrs.Flint and I had not recovered our M I could not stomach seeing him after him looking me in the eyes for years, giving me hugs, telling me he loved me and then f**k**g my wife and getting a good laugh about it...

Delta,

That's the odd part. He doesn't even address WHY the family is broken. Just the fact that I am the problem with the family not being together...

It's really odd too...

One of my neices was in an affair and has admitted it.

If I was to suggest that she invite her OM to a family get-together my father would look at me like I was out of my mind to invite an ex-adultery partner to a gathering with their spouse!!!

I DO have a sister who tried to support me in the beginning and was castigated for it to the point that now SHE no longer comes to ANY family gatherings...

She says there is no joy in seeing anyone because everyone looks so sad that there is no point in making an effort anymore...

She talks to me on the phone and I see her at her home, she just can't take seeing the tragedy in person anymore...

Hello Peachyisback,

I don't think that my father wants to think of my ex-brother as what he actually is, the OM...

I think he just wants to think of it as a "whoops I stepped on your toe, sorry..."

I think it may have to do with the fact that there is a VERY good chance that he, too, is an adulterer and doesn't like the feeling of the pot calling the kettle black...

He wants to think that my ex-brother has "learned his lesson and would never do that again" which is a naive knowledge of the addiction of an affair.

I do hope that things get better for your son and for you...

One of my favorite sayings is that "there is no such thing as a secret". The truth will come out and then everyone will know who the responsible parent is and has been.

God bless.

Jim

Hello Scotland,

I think you are exactly right about my dad asking WHY can't I forgive my ex-brother if I have forgiven my wife?

My dad doesn't want to ask himself the hard questions like WHAT has my ex-brother DONE to show he is repentant and is no longer the POS that destroyed my family (with Mrs.Flint's help at that time of course.)

He also doesn't want to UNDERSTAND why NO CONTACT is crucial to our M survival...

At some time I DO hope that I CAN forgive my ex-brother HOWEVER that will NOT mean reconciliation or that he will EVER be around Mrs.Flint.

Mrs.Flint has SHOWN repentance, ASKED for forgiveness, and turned her entire life around. She even speaks out against adultery in her place of employment and has counselled some of the women that were involved in it. She knows the MB concepts and how to use them to have a M filled with love and how to stay in love.

My ex-brother couldn't give a rat's a$$ about what I think of him. He has never even apologized let alone tried to make amends....

All he worries about is what my dad thinks and how is his inheritance? He has sold his wife and family and my father on what a poor misunderstood person he is and why his brother just CAN'T get over what he did all those years ago....

Jim

Jim, the fact that your father also may have had multiple affairs may explain the attitude of BOTH your father and your ex-brother.

Your Ex-brother would have grown up with the warped sense that adultery was somehow not bad. He also would not have seen your father apologize for committing such heinous acts against the family.

Your father may believe that he can not condemn something that he himself was guilty of committing himself. Also, he may not have any feelings towards those OW so he wouldn't understand the need to keep your ex-brother and wife separate. Remember, we all see through our own filters and your father's filter seems to be really dirty from his own actions, how could he filter out someone else's dirt?

Jim,

Have you ever tried to approach your Dad with a different perspective? I mean have you ever expressed your distain for a man that has no honor? Have you ever expressed your dislike for a man that has sinned but never admits his sins? have you ever expressed to your Dad, that a real man has your back, your brother should not only have your back but help protect your family? Have you ever asked him what his men in the Marines would do if one of them lied to them, betrayed them, and then expected to get away scott free?

I'm thinking your father may not want to face any of it, but if you start to challenge his honor, which frankly seems a bit tarnished, he might to start to see why you have no interest in having your brother in your life.

I do hope that you and your sister get together and enjoy one anothers families. You do need your family, you clearly don't need a man of your brothers morals in your life. I know this is something you clearly know.

I am curious, what are your W's feelings about this?

God Bless,

JL

Hello Scotland,

I think that you have touched on something that is very much part of the problem...

My brother, being ten years younger than me, did NOT see the screaming, yelling and fighting that the accusations of adultery brought to my sister and I...

It had pretty much died down by the time he was born.

And there is the defining point.

He never saw the CONSEQUENCES of my father's alleged adultery...

My mother singing along to Wasted Days & Wasted Nights, the kicked in doors and the never ending fighting...

You also have a good point that HE may not have been emotionally attached to his women therefore no problem when the affairs ended, which I don't think they ever had to since he worked with one...

and the other one lived next door.

Like you pointed out so well, my father's affairs never meant anything to him so what's with me making a big deal with my ex-brother and Mrs.Flint's affair???

Jim

Jim,

Ask your Dad how HE would feel if he had found out that your Mom had cheated on him with his brother? And not just a one time thing, but an ecosystem of lies.

God Bless
Gamma

Hello Just Learning,

You're right about my father not wanting to face any of it, as he wrote about "our long discourses not producing anything but anger and resentment"...

The "honor" thing might be interesting to think about. It is AMAZING to me just HOW MUCH he has allowed my ex-brother to get away with...

I remember my head caving in the freezer door when he hit me for saying a curse word when I was seventeen...

And he allows my brother to do this...

The problem is that I have tried to let him know WHAT is necessary for Mrs.Flint and I to have a successful M and what will destroy it and my father does not want to hear ANY of it.

If it doesn't involve a total reconciliation of the entire family he won't even discuss it. The non-negotiationn thing comes from his draconian military background. He would do that with my mother whenever she tried to talk to him about his alleged adultery. If it wasn't what HE wanted to talk about, well, you just aren't allowed to talk about it...

My sis and I love each other and have always been close. When we were little and the fighting would start she and I would go to the river and fish until late then go home when he wouldn't be home...

Mrs.Flint is about to have a nervous breakdown over this because she feels she is to blame for ALL of it because my ex-brother doesn't take any of it and will not try to negotiate about get-togethers. One thing that has been positive about this mess, she now sees my ex-brother for the worthless, miserable wretch he truly is...

Jim

Jim, now you know. Nothing has changed. Mrs. Flint is about to have a nervous breakdown over all of this because of her guilt? I imagine it all comes back for her (and you) when this issue raises its ugly head again. Can you imagine what it would be like if you actually gave in?

Time to Plan B your family. No contact at all. Letters from dad? Returned and unopened or straight to file 13 when they arrive. Why put yourself through that? Why put Mrs. Flint through that. It's obvious nothing has changed for them.

Good for you for sticking up for your marriage because that's basically what you're doing by refusing to budge.

Your dad may or may not live to regret this. They may come a day when he's on his deathbed and he'll finally understand what the "sins of the father" have cost him.

(((Jim & Mrs. Flint)))

I agree. Been there and done that, for other reasons. It's not easy and doesn't feel right, but I know my marriage can't survive when well-meaning loved ones with different values are assaulting it.


Why put yourself through it?

There's a great chapter in love busters about inlaws, including a story about inlaws seeing the light after two years.

The easy (and flippant) answer to that is "I don't." It's got as much to support it as his statement.

I wouldn't answer that way, though.