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I wouldn't answer that way, though. Prisca says she would.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Jim,
The ONE thing I would do is make sure Mrs. Flint understands that your ex-brother was not turned into the jerk he is now by their affair. He was before, during and clearly afterwards. She did NOT do this.
What she did helped tear apart the family, but my guess is that some seams were bursting before expecially with your ex-brothers lack of contrition, care, or compassion.
I grew up with a career military man and was in it myself. I know they can be hard headed, but sometimes when you can put in a lexicon they resonate with, they get it. It sounds as if you have tried alot of what I suggested, if that is the case, then it is up to your father to decide who he wants to see. It is not your call.
Again, get together with your sister and her family. You two along with your spouses and kids start to create a branch of the family that is safe, fun, and will carry on healthy traditions.
I would definitely come at this on the basis of "honor". I would also come at it on the basis of "protecting your family." The later is something that military men often resonate with.
These are just ideas, but I suspect your Dad doesn't think you are "man enough" to walk away.
I have a sibling who has done some very serious things and the siblings family (husband and children) seem to find the behavior acceptable. I no longer communicate with them. I do not want anyone in my family anywhere near them. And you know what? I am fine with it because I value my family much much more than I value the connection to this sibling. It is highly unlike we will ever see one another again in our lives.
I know you don't want to get to that point, but I also know you have decided what really counts. You need to take care of Mrs. Flint and she needs to take care of you. You both need to care for your children.
Wish I could offer you a silver bullet for this stuff, but I cannot.
God Bless,
JL
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Hello Karmarose and all,
Yes, I have been working for the last almost four and a half years to try and get my dad to understand WHY there cannot be contact between Mrs.Flint and myself and my ex-brother including the written MB concepts. There IS a very good chance that he did have two affairs. I remember my mother screaming those two names over and over again. One was a coworker and one was a neighbor. She never accused him of others, just those two. The neighbor and her husband actually moved ACROSS town when we built our new house to a house TWO doors away.
Kinda looked like a duck then and more so today... He wants NOTHING to do with MB...he just wants his family back and doesn't really care WHO else has to suffer for him to have that back...
Marital Bliss,
Good point, maybe he knows H.G. Wells?
Carka,
Thank you so much for your thoughts. I know you know the pain of double betrayal also and think often of how you are doing also.
Faithful Follower,
Yes, it is typical of EVERYTHING if it doesn't agree with what he wants it to be. Best of all, he is a former MARINE drill sergeant from Korea that makes Ermey from Full Metal Jacket look like a pansy...shaved head and all.
Jessitaylor,
You're right about pleading for his family. I wish he would have knocked some sense into my brother when he was a kid the way he did me...
I have though about the possibility of contact and it makes me physically ill to think of seeing my brother alone let alone in the same room as my wife. It's not going to happen.
Even if Mrs.Flint and I had not recovered our M I could not stomach seeing him after him looking me in the eyes for years, giving me hugs, telling me he loved me and then f**k**g my wife and getting a good laugh about it...
Delta,
That's the odd part. He doesn't even address WHY the family is broken. Just the fact that I am the problem with the family not being together...
It's really odd too...
One of my neices was in an affair and has admitted it.
If I was to suggest that she invite her OM to a family get-together my father would look at me like I was out of my mind to invite an ex-adultery partner to a gathering with their spouse!!!
I DO have a sister who tried to support me in the beginning and was castigated for it to the point that now SHE no longer comes to ANY family gatherings...
She says there is no joy in seeing anyone because everyone looks so sad that there is no point in making an effort anymore...
She talks to me on the phone and I see her at her home, she just can't take seeing the tragedy in person anymore... Jim I would call your dad on those large red flags. Do some detective work. Go talk to those people that moved away, and the coworker and her BH. Being your dad has red MB material and his WH mindset. A mindset where there were no consequences him so there is no need for consequences for his wayward son. Don't yield on NC.
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He wants to think that my ex-brother has "learned his lesson and would never do that again" which is a naive knowledge of the addiction of an affair.
Jim Yes, like dad learnt his lesson between A1 and A2.
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"Dear Jim,
What this family needs now is peace and reconciliation if for no other reason, it would astonish people. What a very ODD comment.  To go against your better/best judgment simply to astonish unnamed "other people", is not very wise counsel. In fact, it is very unwise counsel. I am sort of flabbergasted! 
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If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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He wants to think that my ex-brother has "learned his lesson and would never do that again" which is a naive knowledge of the addiction of an affair. It's also naive and thoughtless toward the victims. Certainly a rapist needs to reform and learn his lesson, but that doesn't mean his victims are obligated to allow him back into their lives. Likewise for an affair situation.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Do not let this comment get to you.
It is intended to plant seeds of guilt for the other family's lack of peace and reconciliation.
What this family needs now is peace and reconciliation
Your priority/responsibility is the well-being of YOUR family.
That is the family you are looking out for.
That is the place where you work to establish/maintain peace and reconciliation.
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"Dear Jim,
What this family needs now is peace and reconciliation if for no other reason, it would astonish people. What a very ODD comment. To go against your better/best judgment simply to astonish unnamed "other people", is not very wise counsel. In fact, it is very unwise counsel. I am sort of flabbergasted! Sounds similar to many comments I've heard. (Background for newbies: my H had A with my ex-sister.) - A BIL of mine said he hopes I can forgive my sister someday because that would be a great lesson for my kids.  - One of my brothers said that he thinks I should reconsider attending family weddings. "You will be the one being punished, and you didn't do anything wrong. You don't have to talk to OWsister if you don't want to." - A niece-in-law told me there's no judgment on her part but that forgiveness without reconciliation rings hollow. I said that was an awfully surprising (and highly judgmental) comment, "especially since it's so very common for people to forgive without reconciling for many reasons. Just look at any courtroom in America ... not sure about you, but the victims' impact statements that express forgiveness have never rung hollow to me; they're sincere, but nobody expects for the plaintiff and defendant to be in each other's presence ever again," to which she said "I have in fact seen families of victims and predators have contact. I have even seen them join forces to make sure similar crimes never happen again. My point of view is that healing and forgiveness is never black and white, and never one size fits all. Each person, family, victim has to come to peace on their terms." It may not sound like it, but these are actually very loving, supportive relatives who simply don't understand the NC concept and the various reasons why it's important. They probably never will understand it, and there's nothing we can do about it. Their selfish nature is shining through, wanting everyone to be together, by wanting/expecting us to act selflessly. The majority of relatives understand NC and think I'd be a fool to ever speak to OWsister ever again, and this makes things so much easier.
FBW in recovery
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Thanks for bringing in some light, Delta.
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Jim, how much time do you and your kids spend with your dad?
FBW in recovery
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Jim,
Ask your Dad how HE would feel if he had found out that your Mom had cheated on him with his brother? And not just a one time thing, but an ecosystem of lies.
God Bless
Gamma I had that thought and I did ask him. He, of course, said the following predictable response, " Well, I suppose I would have been very angry but then would have in time forgiven him and not let him destroy my family". That response reinforces the position that he just doesn't GET IT about what an affair actually is or what the affair does to the victim. Being as it is that he has never been on the RECEIVING end of an affair, he has no idea... Jim
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Jim, now you know. Nothing has changed. Mrs. Flint is about to have a nervous breakdown over all of this because of her guilt? I imagine it all comes back for her (and you) when this issue raises its ugly head again. Can you imagine what it would be like if you actually gave in?
Time to Plan B your family. No contact at all. Letters from dad? Returned and unopened or straight to file 13 when they arrive. Why put yourself through that? Why put Mrs. Flint through that. It's obvious nothing has changed for them.
Good for you for sticking up for your marriage because that's basically what you're doing by refusing to budge.
Your dad may or may not live to regret this. They may come a day when he's on his deathbed and he'll finally understand what the "sins of the father" have cost him.
(((Jim & Mrs. Flint))) Princessmeggy, You, my dear, are of course exactly right. My responsibility is to PROTECT my family from ALL danger and predators and this falls under that heading... My father is wanting to sacrifice my M for his own selfish reason of wanting to unite the family...no matter how COUNTERFEIT it actually is in reality. I think my father shouted down my mother so many times that he thinks that he can do that with anyone that disagrees...which is what he is trying to do presently. I do think that he doesn't want to admit that his behaviour without consequences resulted in the SAME behaviour in my ex-brother... Thank you very much.  Jim
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Markos,
Thanks for the tip about inlaws. I'll take a look at it. Prisca idea IS interesting....
Jim
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Jim,
The ONE thing I would do is make sure Mrs. Flint understands that your ex-brother was not turned into the jerk he is now by their affair. He was before, during and clearly afterwards. She did NOT do this.
What she did helped tear apart the family, but my guess is that some seams were bursting before expecially with your ex-brothers lack of contrition, care, or compassion.
I grew up with a career military man and was in it myself. I know they can be hard headed, but sometimes when you can put in a lexicon they resonate with, they get it. It sounds as if you have tried alot of what I suggested, if that is the case, then it is up to your father to decide who he wants to see. It is not your call.
Again, get together with your sister and her family. You two along with your spouses and kids start to create a branch of the family that is safe, fun, and will carry on healthy traditions.
I would definitely come at this on the basis of "honor". I would also come at it on the basis of "protecting your family." The later is something that military men often resonate with.
These are just ideas, but I suspect your Dad doesn't think you are "man enough" to walk away.
I have a sibling who has done some very serious things and the siblings family (husband and children) seem to find the behavior acceptable. I no longer communicate with them. I do not want anyone in my family anywhere near them. And you know what? I am fine with it because I value my family much much more than I value the connection to this sibling. It is highly unlike we will ever see one another again in our lives.
I know you don't want to get to that point, but I also know you have decided what really counts. You need to take care of Mrs. Flint and she needs to take care of you. You both need to care for your children.
Wish I could offer you a silver bullet for this stuff, but I cannot.
God Bless,
JL Just Learning, You are sooooo right about the affair not CREATING the jerk my ex-brother had become.... Mrs.Flint knows that... most days. Some days not so much. Sometimes she will say something to the effect of "You know, if I would just leave then you could have your family back...." Then I have to remind her that no, even if she left, my ex-brother is STILL not anyone I would ever have ANY type of contact with OR allow my children to have contact with. All of the other things, the rape of an underage girl, the abandoning of his children, the failed military, on and on and on illustrates he was ALREADY the POS he is today. My father sees my ex-brother and his own faults the way he WANTS to see them, not the way they truly are. That is the way he can live with himself and the loss of his family. My little sis was never able to have children and use to love to see all of her neices and nephews. She no longer sees my ex-brothers children or grandchildren at all due to my ex-brother's all or nothing BS. I am trying to get her to come over more, but like she has mentioned, it only reinforces the fact that the family is, indeed, broken forever. Keep looking for that silver bullet, there are SEVERAL of us that are in desperate need of it... Jim
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Hello Karmarose and all,
Yes, I have been working for the last almost four and a half years to try and get my dad to understand WHY there cannot be contact between Mrs.Flint and myself and my ex-brother including the written MB concepts. There IS a very good chance that he did have two affairs. I remember my mother screaming those two names over and over again. One was a coworker and one was a neighbor. She never accused him of others, just those two. The neighbor and her husband actually moved ACROSS town when we built our new house to a house TWO doors away.
Kinda looked like a duck then and more so today... He wants NOTHING to do with MB...he just wants his family back and doesn't really care WHO else has to suffer for him to have that back...
Marital Bliss,
Good point, maybe he knows H.G. Wells?
Carka,
Thank you so much for your thoughts. I know you know the pain of double betrayal also and think often of how you are doing also.
Faithful Follower,
Yes, it is typical of EVERYTHING if it doesn't agree with what he wants it to be. Best of all, he is a former MARINE drill sergeant from Korea that makes Ermey from Full Metal Jacket look like a pansy...shaved head and all.
Jessitaylor,
You're right about pleading for his family. I wish he would have knocked some sense into my brother when he was a kid the way he did me...
I have though about the possibility of contact and it makes me physically ill to think of seeing my brother alone let alone in the same room as my wife. It's not going to happen.
Even if Mrs.Flint and I had not recovered our M I could not stomach seeing him after him looking me in the eyes for years, giving me hugs, telling me he loved me and then f**k**g my wife and getting a good laugh about it...
Delta,
That's the odd part. He doesn't even address WHY the family is broken. Just the fact that I am the problem with the family not being together...
It's really odd too...
One of my neices was in an affair and has admitted it.
If I was to suggest that she invite her OM to a family get-together my father would look at me like I was out of my mind to invite an ex-adultery partner to a gathering with their spouse!!!
I DO have a sister who tried to support me in the beginning and was castigated for it to the point that now SHE no longer comes to ANY family gatherings...
She says there is no joy in seeing anyone because everyone looks so sad that there is no point in making an effort anymore...
She talks to me on the phone and I see her at her home, she just can't take seeing the tragedy in person anymore... Jim I would call your dad on those large red flags. Do some detective work. Go talk to those people that moved away, and the coworker and her BH. Being your dad has red MB material and his WH mindset. A mindset where there were no consequences him so there is no need for consequences for his wayward son. Don't yield on NC. The Road, My ex-brother's behaviour makes more and more sense as I think about the behavior of my father and all the red flags that are obvious today... Have affairs, if anybody protests, shout them down until they quit trying to talk, then rewrite history to make it palatable to yourself and others. If anybody disagrees tell them that THEY are the ones causing trouble NOT the ones that had the affairs. Which is EXACTLY what he is now trying to do by whitewashing MY EX-BROTHER'S AFFAIR!!! Jim
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Do not let this comment get to you.
It is intended to plant seeds of guilt for the other family's lack of peace and reconciliation.
What this family needs now is peace and reconciliation
Your priority/responsibility is the well-being of YOUR family.
That is the family you are looking out for.
That is the place where you work to establish/maintain peace and reconciliation.
Thanks Pep, I see the guilt trip for what it is now. I won't fall for it. MY FAMILY is where my priorities lie. Jim
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IMHO you do not owe your dad anything ~ he is the one being inconsiderate of YOUR feelings and how this might affect you and YOUR family.
He wants you to do this to make HIM feel better. I'd tell him to go fly a kite in the nicest way possible and end your letter/conversation with "I will not defend myself or how I choose to protect my family to you again. This is our decision and we stand by it. We will not change our minds. It's absurd that you are even asking me to have contact with Brother after what he has done. ABSURD. Love, Jim"
Me,BW - 42; FWH-46 4 kids D-Day #s1 and 2~May 2006 D-Day #3~Feb.27, 2007 (we'd been in a FR) Plan B~ March 3 ~ April 6, 2007 In Recovery and things are improving every day. MB rocks.
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Jim, how much time do you and your kids spend with your dad? Hi Delta, Before this whole mess started we used to have Sunday dinner almost everyweek. Now he may or may not show up to our house (we are NEVER invited to his) for birthdays and Holidays... however... he has plenty of time to see my ex-brother. Jim
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Jim,
Your father has more in common with ex-brother than he does with you. You hold the mirror up to your father's face and he prefers not to look into it.
My suggested response to your father is, "I'm sorry. I cannot do what you are asking". Period.
In Nov 2009, while on a 2 week visit to my MIL on the other coast, my then WH initiated email and telephone contact with OW for about 10 days. My MIL's advice to my H was to "do what will make you happy". She advised him to divorce me. I did not know about the actual contact (my H told me he emailed OW and she had not responded) and my MIL's complicity until 3 months later. I have not spoken to her since. My H calls on big holidays and her birthday. I have no need to discuss anything with her. If any other family member asks, I will say just that.
AM
BW - 70
WH - 65
M - 35 years
D-day - 17 Apr 08
H broke contact 11/1/09
Back in love after the worst thing that every happened to us.
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