You know what's funny?

When she picks up the phone and we start talking, everything is nice, normal and easy.

Between the times we talk though, I have a lot of questions and doubts running through my head. It makes it tough to just pick up the phone and dial.

Maybe that's "normal?" Maybe that's a good thing?

The bottom line for me though, is "take it slow."

Definitely slow!

But now you have a lot of friends to bounce things off of before you try them.

Sounds like you're getting the 'butterflies' in between calls.

Relax and go with the flow! You're good enough for her Fred!

Believe it!

Are you guys saying you should shake hands on a date? I hope I misunderstood...personally I would feel really weird if a guy extended his hand for a handshake...that seems so formal, like throwing ice on you or something. I'm more for the hugs...but not with a first date that did not go well.

No, no, kaycstamper. My meaning was that some hugs are the physical equivalent of a handshake: there's no feeling to them. They are just a "friendly substitute."

On our last date, the hug had some "sincerity" to it. Or at least that's how it seemed to me.

If I were going to end a date with a handshake, I'd at least try to put some sort of "flourish" -- like the French "kiss" to the hand...

Lol, A Hug from a women surely is welcome on a date compared to a handshake.

I take that as a womens signal that she cares for you, deeper than the formality of a handshake. An example of emotion and trust. A signal that she recognizes your a man, and she trusts you as a women. Liken it to a mans two handed handshake.

I don't know about licking the hand though fred, I think that would scare them away.

Normal IMO, just what us guys do Fred, when we are the responsible types, we tend to worry ourselves. Like you said, takin it slow will be key, pretty soon those worries will fade away as you diperse them thru communication and good experiences.

Wow, I know exactly what you mean by this- I have the exact same thing happen to me and one of the guys I'm going out with.

Sometimes I get confused wondering if these are red flags that I need to be paying attention to, or if maybe it's the devil trying to make me insecure and ruin a good thing?

Anyway, your bottom line is exactly right...take it slow. Absolutely no need to rush anything!

I agree that the self doubt thing is normal. I attribute it to that you kinda dig the chick and you're hoping she digs you too. If she doesn't then you have to start this whole rigamarole over again, and that would be a drag.

I've been dating a woman for a few weeks and I've had that lots of times (I know I promised an update for my thread - I'll get to it pretty soon). Anyway, I found that texting helps; not sure if you're into that. If I send a nice text (e.g. "thinking of your pretty eyes") and she sends me back something sweet, that washes away the doubt for a few hours; without having to interrupt either of our day with a phone call.

The other thing that helps is to think of what would really happen if she did just up and decide she didn't want to go out with me anymore......... pretty much nothing. It would definitely suck because right now I think she's totally cool; but compared to what I've been through; no, not that big a deal. To you I say this Fred: don't worry my man, you got her; you can get another one if it comes to that - you're an old pro now!

Oh, and I'm not sure what "questions" you have, but if they are questions to which your lady has the answers (and it's appropriate), I would just ask.

Opt

I agree that this is normal behavior, but you could try a different approach so that you don't feel doubtful between phone calls.

And it's easier said than done......

How about trying to let go of the outcome?

Meaning, have the attitude of whatever happens, happens, since you're doing the best you can when you do talk to her. It's a bit freeing when you can let go of the outcome. Just live each moment in the present, so that you are happy in between the phone calls and not worrying. That way, if things were to go south with her, you'd still be in good place, and can move on to the next person.

If I have learned anything through all this mess, I have learned that I have to be happy with me, what I'm doing with my life and my time, so that I can be happy with or without someone.

Of course I'd prefer to have a partner to share my life with, but I want to add value to thier life. And in order to add value to someone, I have to be in a place of happiness, contentment, financial stability, with enough left over to share with someone else. (This is me talking through my filter because I never felt good enough for my husband). I never felt valuable to him. That's why Value has been something I am having trouble with.)

Not saying you're not here already Fred, just pointing out some things to think about. If not you, than maybe someone else may get something from this.

I was a drain on my husband, because I wasn't in that place. I've had to work on some things within me to even be the kind of partner that would make for a good relationship. I had discovered that I wasn't prepared for the relationship I wanted with my husband. I'm working on becoming that kind of partner now. I still have a ways to go. I'm not financially dependent yet, much less have enough to share with someone else.

Thanks again, opt.

This also addresses a bit of what MJ was referring to, and I'll add comments to a separate post, but absolutely one of my questions is whether there's any "there" there.

I have to keep checking my "balance meter." We've only been on three dates, and only the last was anything like a "date." I know it's too soon to know -- when we're together, I think we enjoy each others' company, and we can certainly spend time talking on the phone.

But tonight, for example, I wonder if I should call her or not (it's too late now, so it's a moot point). I'll likely see her tomorrow, so I'll have a chance to do a "spot check" then.

Yes, I've heard this before, and I'm sure I'll get to it. I'm having difficulty bringing myself to ask, "how many times a week are you comfortable with me calling?"

More to come...

This is, of course, good advice, MJ. Thank you. I think part of my internal conflict centers on this very issue. Obviously, I'm attracted to this woman, or I wouldn't be pursuing a relationship with her. Not knowing if she has the same level of interest is what keeps me wondering.

It's absolutely too early to make any judgments, and this is a woman who has a lot of personal interests. She is very much into ballroom dancing (even teaches some) and traveled this weekend to attend a Winter Ball. She even sent me her schedule of dances so that I shouldn't look for conflicting events for us to attend.

Yes, I'm tempted to ask her to teach me to dance...

I appreciate your observations, MJ. My current situation is kind of like the batter facing the pitcher with two strikes already against him. I'm in the process of recovering from the trauma of infidelity as well as trying to overcome a life-long awkwardness and uncertainty around women I'm attracted to.

I'm also entering the late innings in life's game, to keep the baseball analogy going. I'd like to have female companionship because it's just different than having guy friends. I loved being in a relationship where my wife was (I thought) my best friend - someone with whom I could share my innermost thoughts, concerns, hopes, dreams and wishes. I miss that kind of relationship.

In a way, I am able to do that here more than anywhere else. And I've never knowingly met anyone from MB face to face!

"My current situation is kind of like the batter facing the pitcher with two strikes already against him. I'm in the process of recovering from the trauma of infidelity as well as trying to overcome a life-long awkwardness and uncertainty around women I'm attracted to."


See now I'd switch that around and look at it like a 2-0 count. You have already dealt with the infidelity and you're getting over the awkwardness; those things are in your favor now. Better yet, how about not thinking of women as your adversary (the pitcher)? How about your dance partner instead?

And I'll reiterate: if you want to talk to her, just call. You can preface the call with "I trust you'll let me know if I'm being a nuisance" and then tell her why you called: "I just wanted to hear your voice and I like talking to you." Worked for me.

Opt

Wow. It's always the simple answers that are the hardest to grasp, isn't it?

Thanks, opt.

Just when I was wondering if she reads and replies to email, I received one! And the good news is that she's up for another date!

I will likely see her briefly this evening (she has a service position at the Monday meeting), so I'll see if I can't firm things up.

More later tonight.

You guys have great advice!

As promised...

We have another date! On our last date we spoke of a TV cooking show we both watch, and I mentioned seeing a local restaurant on it featured. That same show aired again the other night, so I wrote down its name, checked its website and then suggested we go.

We're going.

The preliminary arrangements are made but I told her I'd call her before to firm them up.

That will give me an opportunity to use opt's suggestion.

Wow Fred. I'd jump at the chance to learn ball room dancing. It's somethimg I've always wanted to do but for whatever reasons never got around to it. Go for it dude! Ask her to teach you. It can make for amazing dates I'm sure.

Thanks, L4S. We've talked about dancing several times. My dad and mother danced quite a lot -- I remember watching them on the dance floor: He was 6' tall and she was 5' 1'', yet the difference in height didn't seem to make a difference.

Dancing is one of her top interests. If we progress in this relationship, I'm going to have to learn to dance or it will become a very divisive issue. Good thing that the prospect of dancing actually appeals to me!

Like you, I've never taken the time to really learn how. I grew up during the age when "dancing" simply meant getting out on a dance floor and gyrating wildly.

Think I grew up in the same time frame. Late 60's early 70's dancing was more for how silly one could look while listening to the Stones than enjoying the movement of dance. I have learned a little Jitter Bug (taught to me by my dad) and I can certainly see why dances such as Tango, Rumba etc, etc can be exhilerating.

You're a runner right? Think of that runners high only enjoying it with some one you love to be with and are close to. You both feel the same way at the same time when dancing. What a great way for shared recreational activity. Probably should take all of 3 seconds to POJA that.