I probably will give you a ring. :-) Happy New Year to you as well! I guess it is just a little confusing for me because H was willing - he's not trying to hide anything - but it is just difficult. I don't really want to hear any of it yet I know I can't remain stuck. To clarify: we did discuss the basics I wanted to know. I just don't want to keep going back if I should not. Does that make sense?

Anyway, D19 is right here so I will try and call later. I also want to know how much should be discussed between H and the kids about all of this. Naturally, he doesn't want to discuss it with them either and maybe he's right. I don't think they want to discuss it, but just want to ensure that as a whole, we can heal as a family.

Hey Sunny,

Quick post but I think it should very likely be discussed to some extent with the children. They likely need further reassurances that it had NOTHING to do with them or the stress that any individual child put upon him or the marriage that had any effect on his choice to commit adultery.

Children are so very self-centered that each one...somewhere in their immature minds takes an inventory of what they may or may not have done that contributed to the potential demise of your marriage.

They need reassurances

AND

They need modeling of appropriate behavior from each of you. How to respond as a betrayed spouse and how to respond as a wayward spouse. Modeling repentance and forgiveness. This is a GIFT you can BOTH give your children. Don't miss out on this opportunity by being embarrassed and ashamed. Show them how loving mature God-fearing adults behave.

Just my quick opinion.

Mr. Wondering

Thanks, Mr. W! Great advice!

Tomorrow is H and I's anniversary. I'm very excited about it! At first, I had my expectations set a bit unrealistically. I thought H might take the opportunity to sweep me off my feet, by me a new wedding ring to signify our new commitment, tell me how I'm the best thing since sliced bread, and...well....you get the picture.

Long story short: I truly DO want a new ring. Lost mine years ago and been wearing my grandma's ring I inherited every since, and it really isn't my style. It isn't about having anything ultra-expensive either. I just want something that is for ME, from my husband, to mean what a wedding ring is supposed to mean.

I debated whether or not I should blatantly tell him, get me a ring! I had a problem with that because I wanted him to WANT to do it. He knows I've been wanting a new one for awhile. Then I asked myself what the hurry was. I decided it was because I was putting too much significance on the ring. The ring, in my mind, was more of a symbol right now of everything being "right...back to normal." Then I thought about how I don't want things "back to normal" and that it is just going to take time to be totally healed - not a ring.

Yes, I want a nice, romantic anniversary. Yes, I want a new ring. No, I'm not going to expect H to read my mind to know what I want. I decided - with the help of some good advice - that I can tell him what it is I want and why I want it, but that I want it when HE wants it too. I mean, come on - when you get engaged does the woman tell her man he better go out and buy a ring and propose? Of course not. But, she can tell him that she wants marriage one day... So, tomorrow is going to be about dreaming what we each want our relationship to look like in the future. No pressure of a ring. I only care that we make it a day about us.

SO: any suggestions on something I could get him that would be special and not a fortune??? With my original ring idea, it was going to be about us going together to pick out new, matching rings for both of us.... but, since I'm taking that off the table, I need something else. I want to get something meaningful, not just a gift for a gift's sake!

Since it's been over 2 weeks since I last posted I thought I'd add a little update.

Things are still going well in the recovery dept. H and I have discussed some of the things that went wrong in our marriage before and how much nicer things are now that we are doing things in a healthier manner!

I can see why Marriage Builders stresses the 15-20 hours a week of undivided time together. It really does lead to more closeness! H and I have enjoyed doing some new things together as well as some of our old favorites. We're really enjoying the new furry kids (our 2 white german shepherd puppies) and training them together. It's nice as it provides laughter as well as exercise, since we walk/run them together.

I do find myself still having bouts of anger or hurt. Sometimes it just pops up out of the blue for seemingly no reason and I'm mad or sad. Since we already discussed things previously, I don't see a whole lot of need to have a big discussion with H about it. He seems to read my body language or whatnot and provides me with the support I need when that happens. (Well, if he's home when it happens.) With classes having started back up, I think it's good for me: I'm so busy studying that other things besides the A and OW rule my brain! I'm taking 3 classes this semester. Adding that to my wife and mother duties and it's a pretty full load.

One thing that is still difficult for me to deal with: I HATE how much effort that H put into the A with IdaHO and I still find myself "comparing" to see if he's putting that kind of effort in with me. I know that isn't healthy, but it makes me angry! When seeking out that relationship (and I use that term loosely) here he was - jogging every night, dressing nice, working on his appearance, eating healthy, all the usual stuff. Now that the A is over and we are in recovery, does he do any of these things? No - not really. He's put back on the A weight he lost, doesn't seem the need to dress nice or wear the cologne I got him for Christmas, doesn't always shave....stuff like that. It makes me feel that I am somehow less worthy in his eyes than OW. This is definitely something I need to address in our "meeting needs" area... Right??? We're still keeping up with things but did get off track for about 10 days. (After my last post I got really sick - it was awful.)

Having said that, I know it is somewhat normal to relax your standards once normality has set back in. Don't get me wrong - he's not being a total slob or not caring at all, but not nearly to the degree as when in A mode. It isn't like I'm not attracted to him as is - I am. However, knowing your spouse went to such lengths to make himself better for someone else is pretty hard to swallow.

We're doing well at eliminating love busters and meeting needs thus far. Physically things have slowed down a bit from the "hysterical bonding" period but it's still 3-4 times a week so no complaints there.

H tells me he loves me without me prompting it, but not nearly as frequently as he used to - pre-affair. I guess this will come with time? His actions show that he does so I'm not feeling insecure about it, just used to hearing it more frequently after all these years.

Hi Sunny!! Sorry to hear you were sick..


As long as he is doing what is necessary to make himself attractive to you, he is doing fine. You can't compare the things he did in a fantasy affair for a person who didn't really care very much for him. Their relationship was very superficial and based on a fantasy. Yours is not.


I would jump to the radical honesty lesson and start telling him this stuff. He needs to be told what you need in order to feel loved.

Thanks for the update, Sunny!

Thanks for the update.

Glad some things are changing, but do tell him your concerns, as you're one hot mama now, and he's slouching a bit!

Best wishes to you both

Thanks for the support, Mel, MW, and Peach!

I am so busy these days with classes, MBing, and being a mom and new puppy owner that it's hard to find time for the forum but it really does help me!

I know there are people hurting and in a lot more pain than I am in right now so I feel a bit guilty asking for advice, yet I know that not asking for it is not good either. Don't want to end up back in bad marriage mode!

You guys are right that I need to be more open with him. Radical honesty means just that and I have to be willing to provide it if I want to receive it.

H IS putting a lot of effort into marriage recovery, so I need to remember to give him credit for that. I do wish he would put more in the PA dept. I realize now my expectations are higher in that area than they used to be and that's OK. I expect more of myself as well so I don't feel there's anything wrong with it. I don't think H needs to be going full out all the time, but I would at least like him to care about it. I know he likes it when I look good, so it is a reciprocal thing. I guess for me it is about him wanting to do it for me as well as the way he actually looks. Is that bad??? LOL

Mel: I will call you tomorrow if you're around. Been meaning to catch up then got sick, then busy, etc...

Sounds great!

Open and Honest. It's a good thing.

Why are you afraid of asking for what you need?

I'm not afraid of it, really. It's more about timing. My understanding was that it would take awhile for H to go through withdrawal and to be patient and let time and the MB program (the hours together, etc...) work their magic. One of my faults is trying to hard to make things happen rather than let things happen. Does that make sense? Normally, it's not wrong to want to make things happen. However, trying to force recovery without going through the process is just short-changing the system and you just can't do it.

SO...I was trying not to expect too much too soon and not to push/pursue before the time was right.

The way I see it - recovery has to be as much about building the attraction up again as much as just going through the steps. I figured if I came across as demanding, the attraction level certainly wouldn't rise!

Hi Sunny! Just wanted to tell you that you're doing great! So much better than I did when we first started recovery (of course I didn't find MB until way later). Remember recovery is not a sprint, it's a marathon. It seems like your FWH is really trying and that's a good thing!

As far as the attraction thing? Could WH be going through some of his own stuff-- withdrawal, sadness because of what he's done to you, what that says about him, etc.? It's hard to worry about your looks when you're depressed (not saying that he is, just a thought). Maybe he's afraid to express his own pain. I know my DH just hated sharing his thoughts and hurts at first because he didn't want to hurt me all over again. Anyway, I could be totally off base but I thought I'd just suggest this.

In the meantime, patience my dear, the rest will come if you continue to follow the MB plans.

Thanks, Princess!

I think you could possibly be right about the possible depression and such. I hadn't thought of that but it does seem a likely culprit. A lot of the time he seems good but there are moments that I think about it: in a movie, or a song, or church - if something is mentioned in the, "I'm loved but don't deserve it" department... he always reaches over and squeezes my arm or takes my hand. He won't talk about it - hates sharing those kinds of things too.

As for following the plan and having patience - you are right on target, of course!

Friday night we got into our first real tiff since recovery. It was about what we were going to do yesterday as we had planned to have a special day and evening out for the two of us. Now why would we fight over that? Well, because I had expected one thing and prepared for it. He planned for something totally different. I know one would automatically think, "OK: they needed to get on the same page before planning and not be expecting the other to know what they were thinking..." Normally I would said that was right. However, I had specifically told him what I wanted several weeks ago. I bought a new purple (his favorite color) cocktail dress. He went shoe shopping with me to get shoes for the dress! Friday I even sent him pics of jewelry I was picking out to go with it for heaven's sake. I emailed him some ideas of where to go to dinner - some fancy places I'd been wanting to try. We haven't done fancy much these fast few years.

SO...what happened? He emailed me the place where he wanted us to go spend the night Sat. night. Uh....it was not what I was expecting and an 2 hours in the opposite direction of any of the places I'd been thinking. It was in some small town - just rental houses - not even that nice and certainly no where to go to dinner and wear a cocktail dress!

I told him when he got home as gently as I could how I felt. I didn't understand his choice. I didn't want to commit a LB by being disrespectful, so I was careful not to put down his choice but to explain my feelings. This went right along with my previous feelings, of course, that he was not putting in the "effort" in this area. Do you think he would've taken IdaHO to some place like this??? Heck no! Is there anything wrong with where he wanted to go? NO....not in the right context but certainly not a romantic and special evening.

Anyway, despite my best efforts of being true to my feelings and needs and not putting him or his choice down - he got upset. I got upset too because at the core of this was me feeling he didn't want this romantic evening with me. I let him know I DID appreciate al his efforts in our marriage.

I didn't bring up any thoughts or comparisons of, "This isn't the type of place you took OW," but I did mention that I KNEW he could be romantic because I had plenty of records playing in my head.

And before anyone things I am being high maintenance and expecting too much - this is a man that makes a darn good living and I never have asked for anything for myself. I don't ask for expensive jewelry or cars or anything like that.

SO: the final result... thanks to MB our fight was MUCH more productive than it ever would have been in the past! There wasn't emotional outburts - but there were tears, but not in a poor me way. We worked through it fairly quickly compared to how things used to be: no avoiding, no withdrawing - honesty!

In the end, neither of us wanted to do the original plans we had in mind. It would've seen tainted somehow to do what he wanted or what I wanted, quite frankly. SO....we ended up doing something we both wanted to do. We went shopping and picked out new wedding rings then went to dinner! :-) We stayed at home. Decided we would do the "fancy" night out for Valentine's. I ain't wasting that dress! LOL

POJA is cool!

That is awesome!! You know what stands out to me the most? He is agreeing to things he does not want to do, isn't he? ugh...

Do you mean the Valentines night out? It wasn't that he didn't want the fancy dinner, etc... I didn't go into specifics of our Friday night discussion but he was not against that at all. He was just viewing it differently - that it was more cliche than us doing something more unique and just being together.

I made it clear that I don't want him doing anything to "just make me happy" because it wouldn't mean a thing to me if he didn't want to do it as well. He convinced me he definitely does. He didn't put 2 and 2 together that I wouldn't want to wear a fancy dress out just to go to the "usual" places like Outback or Carrabbas, lol

I definitely want POJA on this and everything else! Clark is right...it's cool! I explained to H that it was nice that he was willing to do things just to make me happy but in the long run, what is best for US is us doing things together that we BOTH want. He agrees!

The new rings were also a POJA thing. We discussed it weeks ago for our anniversary and started looking. At first I thought he didn't want it - and I didn't want to push it. Turns out he wanted it as well but was concerned about hours at work at the time and didn't want to spend a lot of money at the time. I explained (on our anniversary) that I didn't need anything fancy - it didn't need to be a lot of money. He said it was important to him that I have something nice. We agreed it didn't need to be extravagant. Anyway, he got VERY into the whole thing and we've spent as much time looking at his as mine! :-) He's very happy with the ones we've picked out: his is very unique as is mine. They go well together and they pay homage to our original rings but are special. So, they are very symbolic: the past is represented but it's also new and different: thus signifying our many years together but looking to the future in our new marriage. :-)

I just wanted to emphasize something that Princess alluded to above. I am SO grateful for the MB program! I think it would be so easy once the big crisis is over and you're reconciled to just let things be. However, I don't believe that would be healthy at all. I see others who do save their marriages yet aren't every really "recovered" in the sense that they are living with marriages that are not satisfying. I don't believe once a week marriage counseling would bring that either. What MB offers are practical ways that are very specific (even if not always easy) to bring about a relationship that is not just "saved" but becomes exceptional!

I have read more books on relationships than I know what to do with at this point. I've done a lot of research because my intent (I'm back in school full time to finish my degree) was to become a family therapist. Now I'm not so sure: I'm unhappy with our system in that sense. Don't get me wrong - a good counselor is fine but it's better to replace bad habits with good ones rather than just talk about the bad habits! That's what MB offers.

In 20 years H and I never did the things that we are now doing. Who knew he liked going shopping with me to pick out outfits and shoes, for instance. He likes having a say in what I wear - not to be controlling, but it ups his attraction for me. You know what? It also helps me know he IS interested and then I am more motivated. I now even understand why he likes playing XBox with the boys since I've played with him some, fulfilling recreational needs. Is POJA always easy? Is radical honesty always easy? No.... but worth it.

Anyway, I just wanted to say it truly is life changing.

A bit of a precarious evening last night - not with H and I but H and S16 (17 in a few weeks). S15, H, and I went shopping and to dinner and picked S17 up from a church thing he had. After S17 got in the car, he started talking about some things he'd gotten out of the lesson he'd heard. Well, H kinda blasted what he was saying. I know he didn't think he was blasting S17, just stating his opinion, but I know how S17 felt. He took it personally. I know because it is one of my top LB's of H's: he speaks very arrogantly and with "disrespectful judgment" at times. Even S15 said, "And you think I'M argumentative and literal at times!"

S17 stormed upstairs when we got home. H made no attempt at talking with S17, which is bothering me this morning. Last night I didn't say a whole to H except that I knew what he was saying but at the same time, how you say something counts. He expressed to me that he just wants S17 to think for himself and not just be a "sheep" willing to follow whatever. I agree with that. However, it wasn't about that really. I dropped it because I felt we had a good discussion about it. This morning, I feel it needs a little more exploration.

S17 told me this morning before school that he was REALLY mad and that H had no business advising him on spiritual matters after what he did - having an affair, leaving the family. He has forgiven him, he said, but that doesn't mean the respect has been restored. (I'm paraphrasing, of course.)

After my discussion with S17, I got to thinking: this is deeper than what I thought last night. I feel H may resent S17 for "taking my side" of things and judging him. Well....too bad! He was taking the side of right - the side FOR his family - not against his dad at the time.

My question now becomes what to do. Do I stay out of this and let the two of them work this out? Do I call a family meeting? Do I get a counselor involved?

The MB program is going great for H and I but clearly, there's some work to be done with H and the kids. Quite frankly, I believe deep down H blames me for their turning against him... with my exposing to them, etc... (Again, too bad!) I'm not sure he's over that yet, even though it was part of what brought him home.

Just my initial thought...

Interesting how HONESTY (you exposing the truth about their father's affair to your children) has actually helped your son(s) become more critical thinkers and less like sheeples willing to follow whatever (including their father...who is less than superhuman now)

Again...the lessons your children are learning about sin, adultery, forgiveness and repentance (and how you and your husband go about it) are FAR and AWAY more beneficial than the lessons of lying, harboring secrets and sweeping things under rugs (or into the family secret closet).

Your husband has lost a lot of their respect. That is a consequence of HIS actions (not your exposure). Part of repentance is his embracing of that. He needs to understand and accept the NATURAL consequences of his actions and even repent to his children (whom he also harmed). I don't know if he's capable of it yet or not but he COULD apologize to Son(17), ask for his forgiveness again and tell him that he's actually proud of him for sticking up for his thoughts and beliefs last night. Tell son he was actually pressuring him on his beliefs to see if they were his or just parroting others and apparently, in doing so, he learned that son was fighting back against him because he was applying critical thinking skills (as in, what right do you dad as an adulterer have to questions my religious beliefs).

I don't know...he'll take the conversation from there but it's a wonderful lesson opportunity for both son and husband (who perhaps needs to also realize he's on very new ground here with nearly adult children AND having fallen from grace very recently in their eyes and his own....we are all learning our entire lives....mistakes are to be expected.)

Mr. Wondering