I'm wondering if anyone else has had this experience. My former husband and I had a solid marriage for 25 years and had three beautiful children together. We were living the dream, nice kids, house, friends, etc.

Several years ago his business started to falter and he turned to alcohol to thwart his depression. Prior to this, alcohol had not been abused.

I naively was relieved when he decided to join AA. But then I started to see him change before my very eyes. His attention turned away from the kids and I and all he wanted to do was go to meetings. Soon he started telling me that I didn't understand him. He began to alienate himself from the children and I and said he knew only an alcoholic could understand another alcoholic. I didn't consider him to even be one based on one brief period of abuse. His vocabulary changed and he started spouting slogans. It was like the invasion of the body snatchers. Even the kids said they didnt't know who he was anymore. Eventually he moved out and then started seeing another woman he met in AA...which you aren't even supposed to do your first year. His overinvolvement in the group even cost him his job.

So now he has lost his wife, kids, house and job....after joining a program that was supposed to help him find serenity...well he found Mary, not serenity!

We are now divorced and I am still trying to figure out how a group that is supposed to instill family values and support making amends could allow this to happen. His sponsor even told me via email he was in favor of my husbands relationship with this woman because I was an enabler....and he has never even met me! I didn't stand a chance because it seemed the whole group was against me.


I am finding this is not an uncommon experience, and wondered if anyone has experienced this.
Thanks

I've experienced a cult of personality shift in several friends and family members who went through AA, NA or similar groups. All I can say is I'm so sorry. I don't know of anyway to combat that kind of tunnel vision. You are truly ganged up on in that situation.

Most of the people I know who went through it softened their stances on die-hard exclusion of all people unrelated to the organization after time. But then again, these people were young when it happened to them, and life kind of lead them into different places over time. None had families before, and eventually traded in the family they found in the organizations for families of their own. From there, more flexibility seemed to happen. Don't know of anyone who did the opposite.

I have no advice except to do your best to be good to yourself and move on. Again, so sorry.

I've experienced this twice.

Two years into my marriage, my husband entered into AA for his alchoholism. He did the 30 meetings in 30 days, and went almost nightly after that as well. Immediately after entering AA, he shut me out of his life almost completely. He wouldn't open up to me about anything, including things about his AA experience, except for a few slogans, etc. that he would spout off. He gave me the "book" and told me that would help me understand. This was 15 yrs ago.

After a few years he quit going to AA. He said he didn't need it anymore, but would go once a year to pick up a chip.

Four years ago was the first d-day, and then I had 7 more months of "discoveries", leading up to a final dump before a polygraph test. I asked him to move out, and he did. During our one year separation in 2008, he started going back to AA with his sister, who is also an alcoholic. The same thing happened again. He shut me out of that part of his life.

One of the ex gf that he cheated on me with started going to same meetings, and when I asked him not to attend the co-ed AA mtgs, that was a problem for him. All of a sudden, it was important for him to go to his meetings after all of these years.

Over the last 3 years since he started going back to AA, he had one sponsor who fired him for not working the program. As of 4 months ago, before he left, he still has not had a sponsor.

I feel he's going to just to get the attention he so desparately craves. He wants to be with people that "understand" him. Anyone else doesn't "have a clue".

His social circle was made up of his AA buddies, and girlfriends. I was excluded. I offered to go to the co-ed AA meetings with him anytime he wanted, but that didn't work for him. Ever since he started back to AA in 2008, he became distant again, and acted wierd in many ways.

Those co-ed AA meetings were the final thing that brought a close to our marriage. He wouldn't just attend men's only meetings.

I do believe they use the excuse that we are enablers, and some may be. But 15 years ago when he started AA, it was because I was fed up, had told him I was leaving him. I was not an enabler, and had he started drinking again, I wouldn't have been one then either.

I've been to plenty of AA meetings, and I've noticed that most just switch their addictions to something else like smoking, etc. My husband switched to internet games and porn, etc.

Don't blame yourself for their stinkin thinkin.

Sorry you're going through this. I understand.

The sad fact is that there are people who misuse A.A. One can read about the "Q" Group, the "Midtown Group" and other such that take the basic A.A. principles and twist them into cults of personality and worse.

And because A.A. has its own set of traditions and guidelines, there is nothing they can do about it.

Very early into my sobriety, my sponsor told me, "If alcohol is your problem, the solution is simple: stop drinking."

A.A. is a fellowship that has a program of recovery. I have seen many people "work the fellowship" without working the program. They are not any more recovered than when they were drinking.

The 12 Steps of A.A. are the program. So successful are they, that they have been incorporated into something like 56 other 12-Step programs.

The purpose of the Steps is to give the sufferer a "road map" back to humanity. They teach one that God comes first, and that service to others is vital to self-recovery. The program also warns against shutting out friends and loved ones.

It is entirely possible for people to "hide out" in A.A. Mere attendance at A.A. does not assure recovery.

A.A.'s basic principles were founded on Biblical precepts: The Book of James, 1 Corinthians 13, the Sermon on the Mount. The foreword to A.A.'s Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions has one of the best comments I've found in all A.A. literature:

Put another way, as the A.A. step workers say, "It works if you work it."

Op;
So sorry for this situation. I have no first hand AA expereince, but I have heard stories before of relationships started this way (and I know that they were advised against this).

Really burns my butter that his sponsor labeled you an "enabler" without the benefit of ever meeting you. The gand up group dynamic had to be horrible.

I bet this can happen with any counceling group, tho, not just AA.

Good point, could you tell me more about the personality shift you saw in friends and family members?

Oh Pep, I can't imagine going through this twice. I agree that they go to get attention. It's hard to compete with the love bombing that goes on there! Check your private messages. Stay the course!
Thanks, M

With all due respect Fred, I am very aware of the traditions of AA...But since we are on Dr. Harley's Marriage Builder site, I question what good it does a marriage to belong to a group that has it's priorities placing the marriage down on the list so far....even further down than "Helping other alcoholics" and "Serving the Fellowship." This is in direct opposition to what Dr Harley's program is about. Have you read the article Dr Harley wrote on how the codepency (AA and Alanon believe in this) movement is really bad for marriages. Dr. Harley even cites that his experience is that few marriages survive involvement in rehab 12 step programs. Now drunkeness is certainly not good for a marriage, but AA is not the only way!

I don't know what your involvement with AA is, how many times you go to meetings, how many times you do service, how many times you talk to your sponsor or sponsees...but involvement in any group to this degree makes a person physically and emotionally unavailable to your family. And I know the standard comeback is "I was not available when I was drinking either." But Life Ring, SMART Recovery, Rational Recovery and the Sinclair Method of recovery do not require you to pledge allegiance to the group before your marriage!

Pep, can't send you a PM as it is disabled. But if you want to join a private forum of people that have had their marriages replaced by a program, pm me with some contact info. Sometimes it helps to know you are not alone.

I have an interesting story about what AA does to families. My wife and I drank but I did not drink to the extent she did. She would drink a 1.75 liter early in the morning and already gone out for another one as a spare and be nearly passed out when I got home. She had a very high tolerance. Eventually I did what I thought was the right thing and put her in a very expensive rehab for 28 days. I know she had to stop drinking at some point. Unfortunately she got hypnotized by AA and it ruined our marriage. Let me explain it fully.

I was very happy that she got into rehab and stopped drinking. Unfortunately I honestly believe that AA turned her against me. When she left rehab they told her to go to AA 90 times in 90 days. She was an unemployed house wife and did just that. The problem is that she started going 3 times a day 7 days a week. That left no time for our relationship. She got very heavy into �service work� and took on more and more duties every week. She liked the fact that everyone praised her for what she was doing. She normally would pick up 2 to 3 other AAer�s and take them to the meetings with her and they all became real good friends. She was spending about 10 hours a day on AA every day. That left no room for housework, cooking, or family life. I went to a few therapists with her to work out the problems we were having and they both said she was being too obsessed with AA and she should slow down and we should start being a couple again. Her answer to both of them was �I am not going to give up my sobriety!�. With that the therapists naturally could not tell her to not go anymore or fight the amount of time she spent on AA. After a few years of her sobriety we ended up in divorce.on. Her AA �friends� have been very instrumental in helping her leave our relationship because it was �Jeopardizing her sobriety�. I tried to join AA with her but they put up road blocks to my entry. Let me explain this also.

When my wife first started going to AA I attended a few meetings with her and met her sponsor. Later my wife would tell me that all of her fellow AAer�s knew that I was not one of �them�. I was an outcast at the meetings. Her sponsor told her that it was OK for me to go to the meetings with her but I should not sit by her or talk to her! Since I was not one of �them� no one would talk to me in the rooms and it was torture to be in them.This left me no time with her at all except for the ride home, where she would volunteer to take people home. When at the meetings I would hear people say to each other to ask my wife for a ride home because she �always� gave people rides home. They were using her to the max. She complied because everyone would say what a great person she was for doing all of this stuff. She ended up having an large number sponcee�s and they all called her several times each day. Some of them would call up and tell her about the problems they were having in their relationships and ask my wife to intervene and talk to their husbands or friends.I was afraid of my wife getting hurt doing this and told her to not interfere with other peoples relationships. She said she had to do this to protect her sponcee�s �sobriety�. I wanted our relationship to get better and she was trying to help other peoples relationships because they were more important because they were in AA. She also had many divorced AA sponcee�s over the years and they all taught her how to divorce your husband the easiest way. She learned many tricks from these people and I believe she used them against me. In the end she was spending 60-70 hours a week on AA related duties. When she went grocery shopping she would first go and buy �goodies� for the AA meetings and then buy a few things for us. I worked during the day and I would come home at 5 and we had no food in the house. She would order pizza or something and then rush off to pick up people at 6:60pm to take them to an AA meeting at 8pm and not come home until 11-12pm. In other words I would get about 1.5 hours of time with my wife during which she usually got calls from her sponcee�s asking for a ride. The house was a mess and their was no food. She even went as far as to tell me that I should start doing more around the house to help her �sobriety�. She did not want to do anything but AA duties. I was the only one working and she was using the money I was working for to fund AA.

So before you go to an AA meeting with your spouse let me list how they alienated me from my wife:

1. I was considered not one of �them� and that I �don�t understand� them.
2. I was prevented from going to the meetings with her because it would hurt her �sobriety�.
3. She neglected our marriage and only did AA related things.
4. They taught her numerous slogans in AA that she used against me continually to explain why she had to spend all of our time and money on AA.
5. They said I was not one of �them� and just do not �get it�.
6. AA consumed so much of my wife�s time that she had no time for us. They tricked her into giving more time and money than anyone else in the groups she went to. They did this through praise on how she was an angel.
7. She was continually talking and learning from bitter divorces how to leave your husband and take all of his money. They did not want to loose their free taxi rides and convinced her that I was being unreasonable in wanting more time with her because it was hurting her �sobriety�.
8. My wife was being used to the max during this whole time and they used the �Big Book� to explain why she should be doing this for free.

Ya. Great post Fred.

I do believe in my stbx's "social" AA group, they're more like a cult than a recovery group. It gives me the creeps.

And what I can't stand about AA is that in my experience with my stbx, I have been given the impression that they blame everyone but themselves for their miserable existence and that "we", ie. spouses, parents, etc. are the problem and the enemy to their sobriety. Crazy making I tell ya. It's no wonder they came up with Alanon.

That sponsor was showing his ignorance.

Oh, this ticks me off as well. I'm quite sure that all my husband's AA buddies have judged me without knowing what's really been going on, because they "support" his "sobriety".

I'm sure the times when I was "upset" with my husband was all the excuse they needed to determine I was the problem.

Thanks. I think though that you may have been addressing me, MyJourney, and not Pep. Pep authored the quote in my sig line.

If you are indeed addressing me in this post, I'd love to have the link to the online group you mentioned.

*edit*

Thanks!

What a story JR. Sounds like they trade the addiction of alcohol for the addiction of the fellowship and meetings, which in a lot of cases, like yours, is still not giving them balance in life, just another addiction to prop them up. I know this was the case for my husband both times he entered.


[quote] I went to a few therapists with her to work out the problems we were having and they both said she was being too obsessed with AA and she should slow down and we should start being a couple again. Her answer to both of them was �I am not going to give up my sobriety!�.[/quote]

I've heard this as well, ad nauseum.

This whole trading in your real family for your AA family is way too common. Dr. Harley use to be an addiction specialist. I asked him via e-mail about the dangers of co-ed meetings, which he addressed on his radio show. He said it was very common for affairs to take place in those meetings and that I should be concerned. My stbx just thought I was controlling and caging him.

Honestly, I am so glad he's not my problem anymore.

Oposo, I find it awkward that I'm putting myself in the position of "defending" A.A. I am not a spokesperson for the organization, nor does it request that anyone try to do so.

I am simply a recovered alcoholic who is grateful that A.A. helped me find a God, helped me turn my will and life over to God, and try to help others.

The sad truth is that there are two types of people who have been in A.A. for any length of time. They are referred to as either Elder Statesmen or Bleeding Deacons. It is my most humble wish to be one of the former; the latter do more damage to a newcomer's recovery than anything else, in my opinion.

A.A. does not require one to "pledge allegiance to the group before your marriage!" In fact, that precept goes against the basic premise of A.A. right from the start!

One is a member of A.A. if one says so, and no one can say otherwise. Similarly, one can change home groups, sponsors, choose to not work the steps, or do and say anything they wish about A.A., the program, or anything else. In fact, A.A.'s Fourth Tradition states, "Each group should be autonomous except in matter affecting other groups or A.A. as a whole." This is often referred to as the Tradition that states, "Each A.A. group has the right to be wrong."

The Bleeding Deacon will say "A.A. is the only way." The Elder Statesman will say, "A.A. has a program. If your program isn't working, why not give ours a try?"

Finally, A.A.'s literature includes an entire chapter in the Big Book, "The Family Afterward." Much has been made of the fact that the entire family has been affected by one's drinking, and that the entire family must get into recovery.

Nowhere in that chapter does it even suggest that the alcoholic put his family second. If people read it that way, then they are mistaken. I refer once again to that phrase, "happily and usefully whole," which is the goal of A.A. and the Steps.

Because many newcomers to A.A. are dazed and distressed, they are easy prey to vultures who claim to be A.A. "gurus." Unfortunately, A.A. has no "policemen" and thus these cultists and evildoers are left to perpetuate their crimes.

Please don't paint A.A. with a single brush. It's a wonderful fellowship and program that has helped millions. But like any other program or plan, can be twisted and misused by unscrupulous people. I wish there were a way I could eliminate the wrongdoers, but I cannot. But I can ask that one not dismiss A.A. based on the behavior of a nasty few.

Fred, I totally understand that AA is a great group for those who are seriously looking for real recovery. I think the program works for those who work it.

It's just sad that there are those in AA who lead the vulnerable and willing in the wrong direction. In some groups it's like the blind leading the blind.

I felt bad that you were in a position to defend AA, because it can be a lifeline and a great resource for recovery, like it was for you.

I have recently just givin up on the group because it nearly broke my relationship with my husband and my children.I was a very heavy drinker i drank every day i didnt want to drink but always ended up doing so i new i had to stop but didnt know how to,i got involved in AA at first i kept myself to myself and i hated it they spoke in another language.I left after about 6 weeks and drank again.I felt i had no other option but to go back they welcomed me with open arms,i started to stick with the winners as suggested,join a group, get new friends just do full on for 90 days get in the middle of the bed and you wont fall out!!! I was sober ! The effects on my family were devesating. all i ever spoke about,worrying about me,jealous as my husband got no attention,neglecting the kids they used to cry when i went out, i left a stressed house they all missed me i was never there for them.Also it was a drain on my fianaces buying stuff for meetings, phone calls, etc but i gained a sponser he was always there at my work,my home and all the meetings i attended .My husband just had to accept it because i was sober !my husband gave me a hard time about what i was doing i was messed up over a fall out i had with him one night and told another member, i was told if my husband and kids were causing a problem then leave and sort myself out because i need to stay sober !was i hearing correct is that good advice? on another occasion my sponser and his wife said that another member would make a good man for me i quickly responded i like the one ive got thankyou very much.i love my husband and children WHY would i want to leave him and cause all that upset to my kids and my husband.all because he doesnt get it !! the last straw came when my sponser called me one sunday afternoon i told him i was having a lazy day and iv not even bothered to put clothes on he later told me that night not to tell him that infront of his wife as he got a hardone that is gross i have never been back since.i speak to nobody from that group,i am still sober have the love of my family back life is good these groups should come with a warning

Oh wow. There are so many sick, sick people in AA. And when a person joins AA, they can hardly tell the bad ones from the good ones. AA is only designed to help a person stop drinking. They are not equipped to salvage the marriage so what often happens is some sponsor will give his sponsee marriage wrecking advice. AA does not claim to be able to save marriages.

As a 26 year AA member, I know members tell each other to put their drinking problem FIRST or they won't have a marriage to save. That bad advice usually kills the already crippled marriage. Additionally, AA ranks are full of sick predators who are trolling for dates. They are called "13th steppers." Your H's relationship with Mary is doomed, by the way. Not only are marriages with 2 drunks fraught with disaster, but the fact that it is an affairage dooms it.

AA can be very effective if a person only uses the program to learn to live sober and gets their marriage advice from pros. Sadly, most of had no idea how to save a marriage when we arrived at AA and trusted the dreadful advice given to us by other members.

Ditto to everything Fred said. He said it better than I. The bottom line is that AA is there to resolve our drinking problems. They don't claim to be anything more than that.

isobella, you should not have chosen a male sponsor and I am amazed that any male AA member would agree to be your sponsor. My suggestion would be to find an all female NOON meeting [yes they have them] and find a female sponsor with long sobriety. Don't get marriage advice from AA. Get your marriage advice HERE. And if your asks you to stop doing something, then stop doing it.

Before you do that, though, make sure your husband is completely on board with it. Your marriage is already crippled, I would not suggest crippling it more by driving him insane with your AA membership.