Dr Harley does not counsel you to do this. Nowhere does he advise to allow an affair to "run its course." What are the credentials and track record of the folks telling you to "let it run its course?" Letting it run its course is the most likely to lead to divorce. By the time you "let it run its course" [WHY??] your love bank will be drained to the core, if not into the HATE range. Once that happens your marriage is over. Sorry, but that is bad advice.

WHY would you "let it run its course" when you can end it now? Is there some kind of unknown virtue in allowing your wife to abuse you? I see none. Rather, I see that your wife will only see your complacence and conclude that you don't care very much about your marriage. If you care about your marriage, why wouldn't you fight for it?

I think the notion of "letting it run its course" is probably a strategy devised by a conflict avoider, because it sure is not a marriage saving strategy.

Secondly, do you think women admire men they can run over? Women do not respect men they can run over and our love for them is largely contingent upon the respect we feel.

Man up here, my friend and set her down and have a come to Jesus. Tell her this: "look, I am willing to give you an opportunity to earn my forgiveness and my interest in staying in this marriage if you do certain things. It will take alot to keep my interest in this marriage. And here is what it is: complete no contact with OM, transparency, shutting down your facebook account, complete honesty about your affair and a committment to a program of recovery. Otherwise, this is headed for divorce.

Have the plan of recovery in your back pocket [I will post a link] and perhaps suggest counseling with the Harleys. The difference between the Harleys and traditional counselors is that the Harleys actually know how to save marriages. They don't waste your time with a bunch of psychobabble about "identity crises" and other crap. They don't care about your mommy and how you were potty trained; they care about the PRESENT. They assess your situation and give you a PLAN to save your marriage.

The goal of Marriage Builders is to create a marriage that is based on ROMANTIC LOVE. And it really does work.

Here is the PLAN that will transform your marriage if you use it - those of us here who have used it have happy, romantic, loving marriages today - and I don't mean in years, I mean it happens fast, in weeks or months:

So I started reading about plan A and B and what I dug up says that you plan A as long as your WW agrees to no contact. So I popped the question on her last night and said that I want her to block OM on facebook again. She asked or else? And I said no or else, will you block him?

She thought about it most of the night then wrote me a letter that says that she does want to work it out because that's better than divorce and that she really does appreciate me, but that she can't block OM because that would be to die to love (or something like that.)

I told her that I was fine with that, then asked her to move out. The resulting conversation was a bunch of fog with some good points mixed in here and there, but in the end she says she isn't planning to go anywhere and she is going to stick it out with me for the kids (and because I think she realizes she is going to be much worse off.)

This morning I head to church and when I returned she tells me that she blocked OM (and I confirmed.)

So at this point she is mostly complying with the requirements of plan A and established NC, and she is committed, though with a lot of bitterness.

I'm tempted to just leave it here for a while and not go to plan B because it would require me to move out or force her out which would be a really big deal since I work out of my home. Also, I don't want to give her any leg up on me in a child custody battle because she already has the advantage. If I move out that would really work against me in the court room.

So what about it? Leave it here for a while since she is following the rules and plan A for a bit longer? I should note that my plan A is pretty effective, I catch her wishing I was a jerk so that she could be justified to leave, but in the end she knows I'm her best option, she just doesn't want to give in to that because she is really stubborn like that.

Why leave when she has blocked OM?

You won't be able to plan A her.

Not make any LD$ in her bank.

Not verify NC if she moves out.

So you tell me what have you to gain throwing out the baby with the bath water?

ak, that is a great first start!! You did good telling her to block the OM, however, she can unblock him in 2 seconds flat. A better alternative would be to stay off the computer or delete fb altogether.

I would not settle. Rachet it up a notch and tell her that while blocking the OM was a good start, it is not enough for you. Tell her you will not stay in a loveless marriage and ask her to join you in a recovery program. Tell her you would be interested in remaining in the marriage if you were in love again. And here is the plan for that....

Do you HAVE the book Surviving an Affair? Do you understand this program, ak? If you don't have that book, please get it ASAP so you understand it.


I agree and disagree. I don't think you should force a separation now, but you also should not STOP until you have a plan and her committment to recover this marriage. I cannot emphasize this enough. Without a plan, you have a plan for failure. Don't leave it there but keep on pushing. Push for her participation in the Marriage Builders program.

CAn you swing phone coaching with Steve Harley? He is very good at motivating reluctant spouses to get on board. Tell her you won't stay in a loveless marriage and this will lead to divorce otherwise.

Also, I would insist that she delete facebook. Tell her you know that she can unblock that bastage in 2 seconds flat so blocking him today means nothing. In order for you to feel SAFE [and use those words!!!!] she needs to delete it entirely.

And I do not think you should consider moving out. Rather, paint a picture for her of you filing for divorce on grounds of adultery [do you live in a grounds state?] and keeping possession of the house and primary custody of the children. Let her know that this is where your marriage is headed if there is no plan of recovery.

The issue of recovery is not negotiable, ak, because you will be setting yourself up for a death of a thousand cuts otherwise. There will be other affairs in your future if your marriage does not recover because your marriage right now is a crippled version of the pre-affair marriage that led to the affair. Your marriage is WORSE now than before the affair, in other words.

ak, please stick with me, friend. I know you are scared, but you are SO CLOSE and if you just play your cards right, you can have a GREAT marriage. Phone coaching with the Harleys is about $200 a session and I think SH could work wonders with your wife. I know it is pricey, but it is worth every penny if you can swing it.

Her bitterness will melt if you replace that vacuum left by the OM with a loving, romantic marriage. If you don't fill that hole it will be filled with something else!!

I've been working on taking care of her, but there is so much bitterness and resentment that she is really struggling. It's like she is hiding the keys to her heart from me because it hurt so bad when I didn't take care of her last time. She is absolutely terrified that she won't ever get the feeling she got from OM from me and doesn't want to be stuck in a lonely loveless marriage again.

I don't blame her, I was a terrible husband and I would be pretty ticked as well. Trust is a really hard to come by right now.

Another factor is that she is one of the most stubborn people I've ever met. I get the impression that she is kicking herself because she wants to get over the past but just can't because she can get pretty stuck with relationship problems. She has a habit of completely writing people off that hurt her and not speaking to them for months or years. It's not going to be easy for her to let go.

I think I'll give her a little more time to think because it really does take a while for her to process things. Rushing stuff feels really harsh to her and it will feel like I'm insensitive to her. Gentleness and kindness is my new MO because it's what I owe her and it's what she needs.

Yes, I know that we need to keep moving and I'm not going to back down, but she needs a little breather after the last battle because it got pretty tense. Above all, I can't force anything because it will feel controlling and I've had some serious issues with controlling behavior in the past. I am unwilling to be who I was because that guy was a real jerk to my bride and caused a lot of pain for our entire family.

I do have the book and I read it really fast a few months ago, I'll read it again and see about scheduling time with SH. If she agrees then that will make a huge difference. If not, I may talk to him myself, our current MC is more focused on getting her through her identity crisis, which as you point out distracts from what really needs to happen, but at the same time I think some of it is legitimate because she has never had the ability to verbalize things at any point in our marriage.


I want to do that, but it will feel so controlling to her that it would emotionally be equivalent to a week long AO. Remember, I had serious issues with controlling everything she did, so it's difficult to under estimate how angry she would be with me because it would feel like the old controlling guy was back, not to mention I would loose the support of many around us that are shocked I haven't tried to demand my way out of this.

Besides, I can tell if she unblocks him, and she could delete her facebook, then login again, then delete again so I'm not sure what it would buy me. I could remove internet from her computer, but then she would just go to her cell phone, and if I take that away then I'm back to parenting again.

I think I'll give it a week or so and plan A bit more, but if OM name comes up again in the logs then I'll get more forceful about her moving out.

Block = click

Unblock = click (affair back on)

Useless to "block" on Facebook. Her account needs to be deleted immediately.

A complete and total waste of time that is likely to harm your marriage. An IC helps a person achieve personal desires at the expense of the marriage. She knows her identity already. I only hope this wild goose chase doesn't damage your marriage. It is not uncommon for IC to counsel a WW to pursue her feelings du jour and go for a "trial separation."


Extraordinary precautions are not negotiable though. This is something you need in order to be SAFE in your marriage. This absolutely is not an AO and most certainly is not a lovebuster.


Ok, if she unblocks him and you know it, what does that achieve? She would still be triggered. But if you tell her you don't feel safe at all with her having a fb account and ask her to voluntarily remove it, you won't be controlling her. If she refuses, then she is choosing to risk your marriage and make you feel unsafe. "Is that what you are really choosing, dear?"

ak, I just remembered this radio segment where Dr Harley addresses the issue of control in marriage. In it, he addresses a WW who believes her H is "controlling." Dr Harley points out to her that the REASON he is controlling is because she doesn't make the best choices. She chooses bad friends and makes bad decisions. He tells her that her H's "controlling" could keep her out of trouble since she has such bad judgement. He sort of laughs when Joyce says H is "controlling" and he then infers that of course he is, Jenny doesn't have good judgement.

The SOLUTION to the problem is to learn the Policy of Joint Agreement, where there are no decisions made unless both are enthusiastic about it. It is not a VETO power, but an opportunity for you to brainstorm and find solutions that make you both happy. This way you cannot "control" her if she has input in every decision. Here is the segment, you might find this helpful: here

And also, you can write Dr Harley and he will answer any questions you have - for free. I would love to hear what he has to say about your wife going to counseling for an "identity crisis." If you want to email him, go here. Marriage Builders radio

He said in marriages where one spouse has bad judgment, there does tend to be controlling. The controlling spouse tries to control the bad decisions of the other. Using the POJA balances that effect and equalizes the spouses.

ak, the Marriage Builders program is comprehensive and will give both of you the ability to verbalize things in your marriage.

Here are some pointers:

"I like ..."
"I don't like ..."
"I'd like it if you'd ..."
"It bothers me when you ..."

We talked last night and she is willing to go through the surviving an affair book with me. We wants to feel the same way about me that she does the OM and is really frustrated that she doesn't and she feels like she won't ever experience passion again.

One challenge we have right now is that one of her EN is kissing. She got this EN need met by OM, but now that he is gone she wants it from me, trouble is that everything feels awkward and frankly, I'm not very good at it.

I think I may book some time with SH to talk about this, but I want to get through some of the book first.

Well, kissing is not an emotional need. But if she likes kissing she can teach you to do it how she likes it. Everything feels awkward at first. The way to overcome that is practice.

The FASTEST way to achieve your goals of romantic love is sit down and schedule 20+ hours of undivided attention time per week meeting these top 4 needs: sexual fulfillment, conversation, affection, and recreational companionship. If you start doing this, you will fall in love in a matter of weeks.

Ok, unsolicited advice:

Start every kiss gently. Lips only. Start slowly. Gently work your hands into the back of her hair.

Build it up from there, but avoid trying to feel her tonsils with your tongue. Add a little after you've built up to that or let her lead on when she's ok with it.

Ok. That was a bit awkward for me, but it's something to work with for you, I hope.

Well, things were going ok for a while, but then she decided to stop reading the book when she got to the no contact part. Now she is taking 5 classes in school and got a part time job so getting her to do anything for the marriage is right near impossible.

On Friday I got pretty depressed because this isn't going anywhere when I got very angry and demanded the truth about OM. When she started to get the feeling that I wasn't going to talk to her until it came out so she finally told me that they were seeing each other, not just exchanging emails.

During the last few months I have stepped up my snooping and gained access to her secret gmail account so I'm relatively sure that NC is holding, but I really hate this trickle truth bit. It's emotional abuse, and it's my own stupid fault because I should have done a nuclear exposure when I had the chance. Now what little exposure I have left isn't enough to really effect her much.

Up until that point things were far better and she had backed down on her plan to divorce and we started enjoying each others time again but I don't think any amount of meeting her needs will keep this guy away if he ever shows again which is very possible.

Yesterday I demanded that she send a no-contact letter and finish reading Surviving an Affair, but she said that the school load will prevent her from reading the book and she thought that the no contact letter was stupid when he already sent one and that she wants him to contact her if his marriage fails.

Looks like I have no choice but go plan B, but I honestly don't know if I can do it. Kicking her out of the house is going to be near impossible, and if I move then I'll get screwed. Another problem is that my wife is extraordinarily stubborn (no really, it's bad) and I just don't think I have any chance to save the marriage after plan B starts. I've seen her hold extreme bitterness and resentment against her own father for over 12 years. She has written off every friendship she has except for the 2 people that were too weak to stand up to her when they knew what she was doing was wrong.

What do I do? If I force the marriage builders system on her then odds a very high that she will refuse and we will separate then almost certainly divorce.

If give her more time then it's possible that we can be on higher ground before another attack (things were getting better), but it's just as risky.

Either way my inability to stand up to my wife and her foolish decisions may very well cost us everything. I hope it doesn't come to that, but it doesn't look good.

AK1,

I think you NEED to contact OMW now, she needs to know that it was a physical affair.

OM may have OMW thinking this was just a bunch of dirty emails, you need to pop that bubble. Doing so will cause OM to absolutely and utterly throw your wife away which will kill her dream that someday they will be together.

Have you exposed to your Wifes family?

Your really in the 4th quarter bro and you need a change in game plan, with her being in school the next OM is already at hand.

God Bless
Gamma

ak1 - I'm in the same boat you are. I just did a nuclear exposure last night and today. My WW is extremely stubborn and opinionated too. I think the decision in front of you is:

1) be passive/patient and wait it out. As you say risky and pretty much absolves you of any responsibility for the outcome.

2) be active and force the issue. That brings more control to you, but also makes you directly responsible for the outcome.

What feels more comfortable to you?

I decided on #2, but it's tough. I've been told tonight that we're divorcing and that's it. She moved into our spare bedroom tonight. I've also heard all about how she lost all respect for me, due to the exposure etc. So, you just need to decide.

I'm more comfortable taking an active role, even when it's hard. At least I did something, stood up for myself and my son. Regardless of the outcome, that step was important to me.

I am confused. Is she in contact with the OM now?