Sounds like a tough situation Hellbore1. It seems to me that he should be interested in counseling if you've suggested it and are willing to go. It amazes me how selfish AA members can be.

Welcome Hellbore1 and Gunthar 2000. I kind of wish I had said my ex got involved in a Star Trek group, I doubt many would defend that.

I think Fred answered Nesre with the first Tradition. I thought marriage meant that your first priority was to the common good of your marriage...at least that was what I was believing when I wore the white dress. So, I guess Fred's post answered Nesre's and I don't really need to!

Hellbore, I don't know what goes on in some of these groups either. but I do know this...my Navy Officer son wrote his dad a series of letters that said "Dad, when I look in your eyes, I don't even recognize the man you were. When I hear your voice, and the slogans you use, I don't recognize what you're saying."

It's very sad. It's like the invasion of the body snatchers. I can't imagine how difficult it is for you to have an important part of your husband's life protected from you because the unity of the group and fellowship is less important than the unity of your marriage.

Gunthar, EXACTLY! Don't know how to put this in Red Ink...that's why I am not Catholic anymore!

What I find selfish is when members from another blog "Stinkin Thinkin" come to another site and bombard the site with a purposeful onslaught of negative opinions. Gunthor2000, Hellbore and Oposo are all from this site and are speaking on the Neverending thread about this site and the radio broadcast concerning AA and their interruption in marriages.http://stinkin-thinkin.com/neverending-thread/comment-page-18/#comment-30674.
This is a coordinated effort to push there agenda on others.
If you were to go over and read the rhetoric on this site you would understand.
Most if not all there complaints concerning AA do not have anything to do with "AA" it is the fellowship.
Thanks just wanted to straighten this out for folks who probably don't want to jump through mental hoops trying to explain themselves. These members of Stinkin Thinkin are not looking to have discussion they are looking to convert.

I have been affiliated with AA for over two decades and this is news is very disturbing and I"ll tell you why. Because I am not sure that you do understand the traditions nor am I sure that you can honestly state that majority of people who attend AA don't abide by them. I don't believe you can categorically say that people in AA don't value relationships, put marriages at the top of their list and carry out their responsibilities (going to meetings,talking with their sponsor/sponsees,ect...) in a moderately balanced routine.
What I do believe is this was your experience and I am truly sorry for that. But to say in general terms that hundred of thousands of people are putting their families second for careless selfish reasons is just not been my experience of AA, nor others.
But this goes beyond that anyway Oposo as people will see if they go to your site Stinkin Thinkin. You have a agenda as others do here to see AA shut down at all costs. I question your motives here.
Thanks

I find it extremely interesting that there is a horde of people all of a sudden chiming in on this thread who have just recently joined MB and have posted on no other threads.

I also find it extremely interesting that some of these people have posted the very same comments on other web sites -- suggesting some cutting-and-pasting -- which I think is a very dishonest approach to "dialog."

Because many of us on MB have developed a strong sense of awareness to and the smell of bovine effluvium, I think I will no longer participate in this thread.

And we have ceased fighting anything or anyone - even alcohol.

For by this time sanity will have returned.

We will seldom be interested in liquor. If tempted, we recoil from it as from a hot flame. We react sanely and normally, and we will find that this has happened automatically.

We will see that our new attitude toward liquor has been given us without any thought or effort on our part. It just comes! That is the miracle of it. We are not fighting it, neither are we avoiding temptation. We feel as though we had been placed in a position of neutrality - safe and protected. We have not even sworn off. Instead, the problem has been removed. It does not exist for us. We are neither cocky nor are we afraid. That is our experience. That is how we react so long as we keep in fit spiritual condition.

It is easy to let up on the spiritual program of action and rest on our laurels. We are headed for trouble if we do, for alcohol is a subtle foe.

We are not cured of alcoholism. What we really have is a daily reprieve contingent on the maintenance of our spiritual condition.

Every day is a day when we must carry the vision of God's will into all of our activities. "How can I best serve Thee - Thy will (not mine) be done." These are thoughts which must go with us constantly. We can exercise our will power along this line all we wish. It is the proper use of the will.

I am probably one of the posters you are referring to and I apologize. I just felt compelled to pull the covers off a blatant attempt to obfuscate a thread/site with a purposeful agenda posing as individual people wanting to dialog. They have done this often on other sites. Why they just don't announce their intentions and their camaraderie. It is called having integrity.

Once again Fred I apologize if I offended you or any other posters/members here.

Thanks
Hollenback J.

Fred

You did a wonderful job and took a lot of time posting.

AA has stood long before us and I am sure it will stand long after us. Is it for everyone? I don't know and I am not going to pretend to know.

All I know is I have become a better person as a result of a spritual awakening from working the steps and it has lead to better understanding in all my relationships in life.

All I know is I require my sponsees to know the first 164 pages of the BB and to perform all the steps to the best of there ability.

With all that God stuff-Higher Power-Making ammends- they seem to have the same experience as me. Most if not all there relationships seem to get better and they arrive at that location of daily reprieve from alcohol as long as they stay fit with there spiriiual life.... I'm not gonna mess with something that works and works well when it is properly used.

nESRE

Purposeful onslaught of negative opinions?

How about a group of people disagrees with your opinion and you are getting overly upset about it.

I think that we have as much right as you to share our opinions... at least I hope so.

I'm not here to bombard anyone with negativity. I'm here to help others to see behind the curtain so that they won't lose a family member to the cult qualities of AA.

You go ahead and be hypersensitive... label anyone who disagrees with you... try to make our opinions seem irrelevant. The fact is there are pockets of outrage all over the web because AA has ruined the lives and torn apart the families of countless people. You can try to stifle us, but the cat is out of the bag.

In fact there is another institution besides AA that accepts people where they are at....whether they've been unfaithful, or abusive, or irresponsible, or addicted...

I am proud to be a member of this group.

I call them Christians.

Hollenback said "But to say in general terms that hundred of thousands of people are putting their families second for careless selfish reasons is just not been my experience of AA, nor others."

Please point me to where I said that. Stinkin Thinkin is not MY site. I belong to it just as I belong to Sober Recovery and
the Grapevine and other AA sites. Just as I belong to divorcerecovery. I do not have an agenda of shutting down AA at all costs. I do have an agenda of trying to understand how these abusive groups can be allowed to operate in this day and age. I do want to understand how the General Services Office of AA can wash their hands of the many allegations of abuse. I want to understand how members can "look the other way" when they see inappropriate behaviors.

The cutting and pasting and shouting in big red letters was something I only witnessed Nesre do.

Integrity? I have begged two posters in this thread to STOP turning it into a testimony to the Big Book. This thread was intended to do reach out to others that may have had the same experience as me. Apparently it had enough merit to be chosen as a topic on the MB radio. Integrity is the willingness to do the right thing no matter WHAT the circumstances.

Whether it was the intention of the AA program to have groups that have run amuck or not, the fact remains, it has happened.
Count the number of POSTERS on this site, not the number of posts. The vast majority have had the sad experience of witnessing a spouse, family member, or friends get lost in the very treatment that was supposed to help them. That is devastating. And to have the thread hijacked by two, now three members that keep harping on the BB or Traditions and ignoring the pain and heartache that the rest of us feel is nothing short of abusive.

Perhaps if the energy I have seen expended on defending the main intention of the program or traditions was redirected into reforming AA instead of vehemently eschewing that travisties in the program do not exist, the program might actually be a viable option for people. Many AA lifers are trying to do just that. I applaud them.

My Agenda, other than healing myself and bonding with others with similar experiences, is to educate others and let them know that some treatment programs should come with warning labels. This is not exclusive to AA. But to say that AA has never harmed a family is nothing short of a lie. I wonder how you might defend the program to a twenty year old victim of the Midtown Madness? No doubt she might be asked to look at her part in getting drugged and raped?

I shared my experience. My Journey shared hers. That's what started this thread. There were others that came to offer compassion or share their experiences too. I am glad that Fred and Nesre shared their positive experiences. It just became too much when the barrage of BB and Tradition spouting sidetracked the intention of the thread. And I would still like to connect with others who have shared my experience. I just wish I had known more about treatment programs two years ago. Perhaps I would still have my husband, and my children would have a father.

AN ALCOHOLIC AND A WAYWARD HUSBAND=CRAZYMAKING

I DO UNDERSTAND.

God Bless You.

nESRE

As I stated before Oposo you are very disingenuous with your posting here. Everyone that has responded to you is a friend of yours at Stinkin Thinkin.
This was your intent to promote your agenda.
I think you have made this clear.

AMEN Sunnydaze53

No, you don't know me. And I don't know you. The difference is, that I am not taking your inventory, telling you what your true intentions are, accusing you of misleading anybody.

Truth is, many people here shared their stories. Some I have never heard of nor seen before, others I have. Two to three people every week present themselves on other sites with similar stories. Dr and Joyce Harley see it often and said so. If you don't want to admit it happens, if you don't believe when people share their stories and experience, that is your personal choice.

AA doesn't have groups that have run amuck? Midtown wasn't amuck? AA is not suffering from abusiveness or out of control? Did you read Fransway or Ragge where people told of horror stories? Stinkin Thinkin, over a dozen yahoo groups and many personal blogs are comprised of people that have been in AA for decades and are now sober and believe that AA has harmed them. They are articulate, functional and I do not believe they are writing of their experiences from jails or institutions. I certainly know they are not dead.

The woman that runs the AA reform group in California is an active AA member and believes in AA. She just doesn't turn her head to the 13th stepping and abusive behavior that goes on.

Please find one single quote that says that I personally believe AA is detrimental in it's entirety. Even in this thread I believe I acknowledged that there are good groups and sick groups. So did Fred. So did MelodyLane who said she has attended AA for 26 years. Why are you not attacking their perceptions? Do they get immunity because they attend AA?

My ex husband and I spent years as administrators in marriage weekends intending to keep marriages together in a society that sees them as expendable. It was my intention then, and is my intention now to continue that mission. Doesn't questioning my motives pretty much put you on MY side of the street?

The sad truth here is that anyone who reads this thread will now be afraid to share their experience. Nobody that is hurting and confused would want to compound their problems by subjecting themselves to personal attack for their personal opinions.

Oposo,
Truth is I do know you and know you very well. I have read your diatribe on many sites, your right about that.
I don't believe many have agreed with you in most of your adventures on other sites. I have seen that they don't.
I tell you this because "you are" misleading and dishonest in your approach to sites. Instead of just coming here and stating your true intentions which was to raise awareness for your outlandish ideas of what you think AA is doing, no you chose to use subterfuge and call on others over at Stinkin Thinkin to come over here and ply their trade of inundating this thread with your (Stinkin Thinkin) understanding of AA. Just the comment you made in your 2nd to last post shows your dishonesty. You made mention that you are a member of sober recovery ect....you are registered so you can rant about your ideas. There is a difference between being a member and just being registered.
Your problem Oposo is your stubbornness when it comes to accepting AA as it is structured. You can not and will not admit that the fellowship and AA/GSO are different. Because it just doesn't fit your acumen of how a business should be run.
Well this doesn't mean then that you should be spiteful.
As far as taking anyone's inventory, please save your slogans for your friend Gunthar. I am telling it as I see it.
I have seen the blog and sites you are talking about. Most of the people are not sober and of sound mind. They post all day as you do, they are unemployed and are suffering. Stinkin Thinkin has two admins that have never even been to a meeting and are not even alcoholics but deliberately make fun of alcoholics and purposely hurt them. Anyone from here who would read the cruel vitriol coming from that site and Ragga would see it right off. You loose members every week your last one Mike, left because he saw Stinkin Thinkin and Ragga as unhealthy.
This is Stinkin Thinkin idea of helping people http://stinkin-thinkin.com/2011/02/...but-you-cant-take-aa-out-of-the-lunatic/
Oposo your not trying to bridge relationships.

I think that the most important thing in a relationship is listening to each other. I don't want to be sexist but I think that this is harder for men, who, in my experience, want to 'fix', rather than listen. Has anyone heard of 'co-counselling'? It is (broadly) when each person agrees to a fixed (5 mins) amount of listening time, followed by reflection and clarification. And that means active listening, not jumping to 'helpful' conclusions.

Hellebore, what we have learned around here is that the most important thing in a marriage is being in love. People who are in love don't get divorced. That is the critical difference between Marriage Builders and other programs, it focuses on restoring romantic love unlike anyone else. It is an action based program very much like AA. And it works if you work it.

My comments here were taken over to Stinkin Thinkin and made fun of. As I said Oposo/sugomom was completely disingenuous. This was all for show. How low can you go to use people. Please read these posts from Oposo/sugomom and you will see her true purpose.



http://stinkin-thinkin.com/2011/02/10/elton-john-now-100-insufferable/comment-page-2/#comment-30912

"first post":

sugomom says

WARNING YOU ARE ABOUT TO BE INSULTED BY A TROLL�..

Question of the day: Who is this showing up on a divorce thread on another site? Quick!
On that site I am Oposo.
Oposo,
Truth is I do know you and know you very well. I have read your diatribe on many sites, your right about that.
I don�t believe many have agreed with you in most of your adventures on other sites. I have seen that they don�t.
I tell you this because �you are� misleading and dishonest in your approach to sites. Instead of just coming here and stating your true intentions which was to raise awareness for your outlandish ideas of what you think AA is doing, no you chose to use subterfuge and call on others over at Stinkin Thinkin to come over here and ply their trade of inundating this thread with your (Sinkin Thinkin) understanding of AA. Just the comment you made in your 2nd to last post shows your dishonesty. You made mention that you are a member of sober recovery ect�.you are registered so you can rant about your ideas. There is a difference between being a member and just being registered.
Your problem Oposo is your stubbornness when it comes to accepting AA as it is structure. You can not and will not admit that the fellowship and AA/GSO are different. Because it just doesn�t fit your acumen of how a business should be run.
Well this doesn�t mean then that you should be spiteful.
As far as taking anyone ones inventory, please save your slogans for your friend Gunthar. I am telling it as I see it.
I have seen the blog and sites you are talking about. Most of the people are not sober and of sound mind. They post all day as you do, they are unemployed and are suffering. Stinkin Thinkin has two admins that have never even been to a meeting and are not even alcoholics but deliberately make fun of alcoholics and purposely hurt them. Anyone from here who would read the cruel vitriol coming from that site and Ragga would see it right off. You loose members every week your last one Mike. left because he saw Stinkin Thinkin and Ragga as unhealthy.
Oposo your not trying to bridge relationships.

"second post":

Oposo/sugomom says

Ragga, is actually referring to an earlier reference I made to Ken Ragge. The whole interchange is here. http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2475471&page=8 But please read only, no more comments, these people are good people going through a divorce. This bozo took his trolling to a good and helpful site and totally hijacked my thread.

Funny part is that we were all maligned especially me for my diatribes on this and other sites. Say what? My message has always been the same. 13th stepping sucks. Isolating families in the name of recovery sucks. Now how is that a diatribe? I would challenge him to tell me my handle on the other sites�.but why bother?

Oh well, Ragga is an electronic form of Reggae music, maybe this dude�s been in Rasta land too long. Peace out man

"third post":

sugomom says

Hell no FTG, it was posted on the site. The whole 8 pages is actually worth a scan if you have time. I am sincere in my mission to save families from the many programs that shut them out in the name of recovery. But apparently, the facts weren�t important to the zealots and when they couldn�t or wouldn�t address my factual statements regarding Midtown, 13th stepping and even real life stories of families destroyed by steppism, the thread got reduced to a personal attack on me�nothing new. I got that when I was first lost and scared and questioning AA over on SR (sober recovery). I learned very early on that when facts can�t be refuted the Zealots resort to personal attack. I�m sorry it included ST (stinkin thinkin)�since neither you nor MA know what you�re talking about and have no knowledge of AA and have never been to an AA meeting. And the rest of you aren�t sober and have no means of financial support. Hee hee. At least he admitted I have �acumen� so he appreciates my keen insight.
He has now edited his post to include a link to ST where I was foolishly trying to debate a BB thumper by asking for help here. There is no point to debating a zealot. Shame on me.

Not sure if anyone can help me. I am new here.