See, that is where we disagree. I have a reunion coming up. I am unsure whether I should go. If someone asks me how I feel about HLS, these days I feel that the worst thing HLS ever do for me was admit me.

I would much prefer if I had spent my time getting drunk at bars and having sex with women I didn't know. I feel that I wasted my youth deferring my desires in the hope that I would be rewarded in later years. Not having been rewarded in later years, I feel that I should have spent my weekends during college at the bar at the O'Hare Hilton picking up middle aged women on layovers rather than studying to get good grades. I would say I made stupid choices that have now locked me in to running on a treadmill. I feel like a hamster on a wheel. Not as someone who has any control over my life. And certainly not someone who can write their own ticket.

Mrs. Hold had a take home test last night. I sat next to her and calmed her down and kept reassuring her she is smart and was doing a great job. She thanked me for being there for her. She even gave me a hug when she was done. But as you say, for this old man nothing tastes good. I am not proud of myself for taking the time to sit with her. Or for having the wisdom to be able to say something helpful while she was stressed. Or for living up to my aspirations for how a husband should behave. I just feel numb. And stupid for throwing coins in a bucket that has no bottom.

You could still be at the Hilton picking up middle aged women on layovers.

You could be ignoring Mrs. Hold's angst and watching T.V.

You are not.

Quote from the movie The Social Network

"You aren't a bad person, you are just trying so hard to be an [censored]."

Hold, I am so sorry you are still where you are. I don't know what to say.

I have the luxury of my marriage not being "in my face" except on weekends, so I don't think I could have worked on myself as much as I have, in an ordinary situation.

Looking back, I had developed a huge aversion to my husband as a defense mechanism, and it wouldn't have mattered what he did or said I would have recoiled from it. I get that.

I so wish something could flip the switch for you. Yeah, I know it is easy for us to say YOU have to flip it for yourself, not so easy when you are yourself.

So hugs for now and a prayer that you will find your way, too.

IMHO, this is a cognitive trap. People tend to think hindsight is 20/20. I don't think it is. I think one must force themselves to analyze past decisions based on the information they had at the time they made that decision. Looking at things any other way is a recipe for unhappiness.


I view this analogy as a loss of perspective. In my youth at thanksgiving dinner, I would laugh when my father would claim he was thankful to be healthy, safe, alive, with shelter and something to eat. These things seemed so trivial to me and suggested to me that his expectations must be pretty low. But when one considers that only a very small percentage of the people who have ever lived get to routinely achieve that state, it seems less trivial.

Said differently, the old man might consider the utility of eating over the utility of the food tasting good. I imagine if the old man hasn't eaten for a while, this is what occurs. This is not to say one can't desire good tasting food, just that one should not lose sight of the fact that bad tasting food is not the lowest things can go.

BTW, I'm not trying to change your mind on things, just throwing out things to consider.

I knew I didn't want to be a lawyer half way through my first year of law school. I just didn't have the guts to quit.

My parents saw that I did not enjoy it when I started working. They begged me to stop. They offered to pay the tuition for me to go back to school to switch careers. I refused to give up the paycheck.

I didn't lack for information. I lacked cojones. Same as today.

And, as you correctly point out, I had no appreciation for my blessings. Still don't. Keep thinking the Lord will eventually make me pay for that. But maybe this is how is how payment is extracted. The Lord gave me the beautiful intelligent competent wife I always prayed for. Joke is on me.

Okay, Hold, so grow a pair and go do something you like. Lots of people change careers. So stop being a lawyer. Be something else.

You say you don't appreciate your blessings. So appreciate them.

I've known people like you my entire life. Heck, I was raised by one. Trust me, you aren't doing your kids any service by staying the way you are and still insisting on being around them. If you don't care about yourself, and that's pretty obvious, maybe you can at least find it in yourself to care about your kids enough to stop inflicting all this self-imposed miserableness on them. I certainly wish my own mother would have figured out how to do that, but she's 63 and still going strong in all her depressive nastiness.

You can choose to be that way for the rest of your life if you want to. I have no idea why anyone would want to though. And if you do, don't be surprised if your kids move far away when they grow up and don't ever call and you find yourself living alone with a bunch of cats.

Good luck with that.

I know! And the fact that you can come up with these instances means you've got a pretty good idea of what would do it for you.
I'm pretty impressed to see this. You don't need the stinkin' ECT.

I understand you hate being a lawyer, and that you feel like you live on a treadmill. But one day, sooner than you think, your kids will be off to college and then you will see the cage door has been open all of this time. Maybe you will go for it, maybe you won't. But I'm telling you for sure, the door is always open.

You know Harley's material better than I, and I'm sure you've read his thoughts on when you have his blessing to leave.

I love the fact that you actually produced such a vivid example of snagging middle aged divorcees at an airport bar. How simply and completely attainable that goal would be for you. It's almost comical.

I agree that spending most of my waking time regreting having gone to law school, regretting being a lawyer, and regretting being married to my wife is a recipe for unhappiness. Especially if I am unwilling to change the ones that could be changed.

My wife is an especially fine woman. I could choose to be happily married to her even if we never had sex. If I choose to stew in dissatisfaction, that is on me.

My wife is an especially fine woman


This is not the picture you paint in your posts....at all.

<I had to edit this post.>


I'm impressed that she has controlled her weight and gotten a really good job. Those things take mammoth efforts.

Would you say those things match your herculian efforts and investments in her?

I think at this point she is making more of an effort in her life and in our marriage than I am. I have given up trying. Both in life and as to our marriage. Lately she has tried to spur me to put some effort into my life. But I am immune to her words.

SD: the fact that she is a fine woman does not mean that we are compatible. I know Dr. Harley says any couple can learn to be compatible. Perhaps. But I am not willing to become the man she would find attractive. For a man who was willing and able to meet her ENs, I think she could be an excellent wife. I have been saying that here for years. The problem is, I am not that man.

Anyone remember that true story of the man who was an accountant with a big house and the perfect family? How he murdered them all (kids, wife and his mother) and then fled living under an assumed name for the next 20 years or so....


Don't know why that story came to mind just now.

Edited to add--his name is John List

Not to worry, I don't have any inclinations in that direction. Doesn't fit my masochism streak. I am more likely to escalate the conflict until my wife leaves me, then mope around when she finds someone else to be happy with. I don't blame my wife for being the source of my problems. I was miserable before I met her. If I do anything drastic, it would be against myself, not Mrs. Hold or our kids. Luckily I don't have the guts to go through with anything like that.

I think you need some kind of fresh start, Hold; not necessarily in your marriage, but in some way that you can really shake things up for yourself. You've been in quite a rut for a long, long time.

Would finding a new, better firm to work for make a difference?
Imagine, nobody knows you, you can reinvent yourself in a new way.

Do you have buddies with whom you can go out and slam a few beers? If not, can you see yourself developing some loose friendships that way?

Just anything to shake things up.

As I wrote the last post, I really felt like I was wasting time.

I'm reminded of a buddy of mine in college. This guy was just destined to go nowhere. He ended up graduating with a two-year nursing degree, which he utilized for awhile.

He is my age, 47, and still lives at home with his parents. Never had a girlfriend, never has been out of the state, never done anything.

For years I would say, why don't you move to the city? Get your own apartment, have some fun, etc.

He'd change the subject and continue to gripe about his existence.

If you can't help yourself, you are pretty much done.

In your case, Hold, I am just dismayed. Guys like you rule the world. You've got wealthy clients, you associate with the richest and most powerful. You can easily have anything a man could want, yet you will consider none of it.

You are either a saint, or crazy in the head. I keep switching between the two prognoses...

Your not a martyr, by any stretch of the imagination, you don't even have the psychological definition of having the martyr complex. You prefer self-inflicted abuse.

You like being miserable, it's what defines you, it's where you feel most comfortable. And no amount of ECT, or words from anyone here is going to change that.

You've been posting here for over 10 years (this thread alone has been going on for TWO YEARS), and NOTHING has changed. you still complain about the same things, and yet refuse to change your life, or anything in it..

You like complaining about your life, because it gives you attention, but I imagine, you don't complain about your life to those you work with..only strangers on a message board.

I notice the wife, has been losing some weight and has even gotten a job, looks like She is making some progress (in areas you have complained about for years) good for her!!

Maybe as she continues to grow in ways your refusing to, she will do just what you want her to do--what you've always wanted her to do..and that is LEAVE YOU!! Then you can complain some more about "oh poor me, my wife left me"..

It's what you want because it's what you think you deserve..and who knows maybe you do deserve that, especially after all the years of whining she's not doing just what you want when you want and how you want..

Your 40+ years old, it's time to grow up..and stop whining..

we know you hate your job, we know you only became a lawyer because everyone else wanted that for you, and you couldn't tell them it's not what you wanted for YOU!!

You love the self loathing--it's where your comfortable..you wouldn't know what do without having THAT...

Good for her, finding a way SHE could afford to pay for most of it, without totally depending on you to cover the entire cost..

And of course you think it's a love buster, because she wasn't totally dependent on you (therefore you couldn't make her feel bad about the expense, and as such can't hold it over her head) she found a way to give something to your daughter that she wanted to give her..that wouldn't strain YOUR over all budget.

Sounds more like she has made some changes in her own life, and you resent that..because you refuse to change..

The more I think back over your posts, and even reading these most recent ones...you sound very controlling, have to control the finances, and if I can't control how much she spends, then I'll control how much money comes into the house...I will SHOW HER!!

The sad thing is Hold, for years I sympathized with you, now, I honestly wish she would leave you, so that SHE can find happiness with someone who really loves her..

ThornedRose, I think your assessment is a little harsh.

I don't believe Hold cares to control anyone.

I think he sufferes from chronic boredom.

TR, here here, great posts! Ok, time for some radical honesty on my part.

What is the single best thing we could do for HOLD? Ban him from this website. This site feeds his neurosis/narcissism. He gets enough sympathy here that he keeps coming back to post because there is a pay off involved. The single best thing that could happen to HOLD is to eliminate the payoff, for everyone, EVERYONE, to simply stop responding to ANY AND ALL of his posts. I know to some that may sound cruel, and HOLD may certainly disagree with my assessment, but it's probably the best thing that could ever happen to him long term.

The primary reason I stopped posting about my own life here a long time ago is because I found that I wasn't posting here to get better or to make improvements in my own life, I was posting to get sympathy and to reinforce my own reflected sense of self and my own narcissistic tendencies. So, I stopped posting for a long time, and even now, I never post about my own life circumstances for this very reason. Posting here actually works against resolving my own issues and my marital issues. I know what's wrong with me, and what's not right in my M, and no amount of me posting about it here is going to make me or my M any better. I'm not saying this is the case for other people that post here, because most people don't suffer from a hard case of narcissism like I do (and HOLD does in my view). Just my .02!