Cant say that I have ever seen this before. Has anybody else.

Does this explain us who stay w/alcoholics or in general hang on and on with waywurds?




Whole Article

Not saying anything right now as I have never seen this before.

Nesre

Just wanted to let you know that this totally honest insight has helped me understand my WH more than ANY book has. I actually printed the above out(couple of times) put one on my bedroom mirror, carry one in my purse, have one on my visor...so when I start to to try and 'figure WH out' I read that, and realise I NEVER will be able to until he heals the hole in his soul.

Thanks Nesre...a million x a million times. Mitzie

AKA "adreniline junkie."

Not to mention, all the "lows" of codependency could easily cause an addiction to the "highs."

Behavioral patterns are absolutely capable of fostering addictions.

Hey Fred
Glad you chimed in. ITA-Now-When I was first sober don't sentance me to a lifetime of AA. I'll do anything else.
Today the miricle of this program also baffles me.

Pep
Glad the link helped you. Its the best explanation of what I was for many years that I could find.

CP
ITA-Alcs when using -Generally professional gaslighters. Hard to get to M issues or real life when all the addict wants is their fix.

HHH
Never thought of myself as an adreniline junkie. The possibility is there. Not much time last night to really think about this. Gonna keep it on the back burner for now and see what I can find with other research.

Mitzie
Nobody to this day can make me add anything to fill that hole unless I agree to it.

There is a double whammy here with your WH if he is truely alcoholic and WH.

BrambelRose and Alcoholics Wife were two posters who were on here in early 2000's. I think alcoholics Wife posts once in a blue moon.

I believe both of there H's were Wh and alcoholic and they recovered their M's even though the H did not sober up.

You may want to see if yu can search for them in the older posts.

Gotta run

Nesre

I wouldn't say it's exactly the same, but similar. You also have to consider the endorphins - good 'ol chemical reward released by the brain.

The same thing happens with rigorous exercise, sex, or a good meal. Your brain releases endorphins which stimulate our sense of fulfillment.

What happens in the case of the codependent, as stated by the quote, is that they start associating reward with the rigors of codependency.

So, you have the crappy lows (emotionally, phsysiologically through brain chemistry) and then extreme highs.

The behaviors and experiences become the addiction, rather than a substance.

This, of course, would rely on physiologically being an addict, otherwise it's just self abuse. However, both carry similar traits.

The addicted codependent will keep the cycle going indefinitely, while the self-abuse codependent can snap out of it.

Hope this helps anyone understand what its like to be alcoholic. This was my experience.

When the BB was written Dr Silkworth knew there was a physical aspect to alcoholism but did not have the testing to prove it. Now we do.

I have seen this article in other forms but this one is easy for my simple mind to understand.

I Hope it helps anyone to understand a person they love or know who is alcoholic. I do not have answers about other addictions. The BB was written about alcoholism.



The Phenomenon of Craving
By Barefoot Bill L. from Upper Darby, PA

The Big Book on page xxiv (The Doctor's Opinion) says that an alcoholic has an "allergy to alcohol". An allergy is an abnormal reaction to any food, liquid or substance. If nine out of ten people have one reaction and one out of ten people have a different reaction, then the reaction of the one out of ten is abnormal. It also says on page xxvi that "the action of alcohol on an alcoholic is a manifestation of an allergy; that the phenomenon of craving is LIMITED to this class and NEVER occurs in the average temperate drinker." (A phenomenon is something that you can see but can't explain). "These allergic types can NEVER safely use alcohol in ANY FORM AT ALL".

Then on page 22, "We know that while the alcoholic keeps away from drink, as he may do for months or years, he reacts much like other men. We are equally positive that once he takes ANY ALCOHOL WHATEVER into his system, something happens, both in the bodily and mental sense, which makes it virtually impossible for him to stop." This includes substances that contain alcohol like mouthwash, cold remedies, some chocolates, food prepared with alcohol, etc.). Your body doesn't know if you are having a drink or taking Nyquil for a cold, it only senses alcohol and begins to process it.

It also says on page xxviii that, "all the different classifications of alcoholics have ONE symptom in common: they CANNOT start drinking without developing the phenomenon of craving. This phenomenon may be the manifestation of an allergy which differentiates these people, and sets them apart as a distinct entity." Dr. William D. Silkworth, M.D. who at that time had nine years experience specializing in the treatment of alcoholics and drug addicts, wrote this in the late 1930's. He called it a "phenomenon of craving" because at that time there was no way to study metabolism. Since then, science has proven his theory as correct.

The following is an explanation of what happens when alcoholics put alcohol into their bodies, and how it is a completely different experience compared to non-alcoholics. No wonder why non-alcoholics can't relate, and make statements like, "Can't you just stop after one or two drinks?" It shows why alcoholics can use their willpower against everything EXCEPT alcohol.

Alcoholics make up about 12% of the population. The body of the alcoholic is physically different. The liver and pancreas of the alcoholic process alcohol at one-third to one-tenth the rate of a normal pancreas and liver. Now as alcohol enters the body, it breaks down into various components, one of which is acetate. We know now that acetate triggers a craving for more acetate. In a normal drinker, the acetate moves through the system quickly and exits. But that doesn't happen in an alcoholic. In alcoholics, the acetate of the first drink is barely processed out, so by staying in their body, it triggers a craving for more acetate. The alcoholic then has a second drink, now adding to most of the acetate of the first drink, and that makes them want a drink twice as much as the normal drinker. So they have another. Then, having almost three times the craving as a normal drinker, they have another.

You can see from that point how alcoholics have no control over how much they drink. The craving cycle has begun and they have no choice but to keep drinking. Once the acetate accumulates in their body, and that begins to happen with only ONE drink, they will crave another. And how many times does an alcoholic think it would be nice to have JUST ONE drink to relax, but has many more? Now you see why. AND THIS CAN NEVER CHANGE!

On top of THAT (like so far it's not bad enough), alcohol is a poison because it destroys human tissue. The two organs that alcohol damages the most are the liver and the pancreas. So the more the alcoholic drinks as time passes (or doesn't drink, because the liver and pancreas also deteriorate naturally as we age), the less their body is able to processes the acetate. THAT is why alcoholism is a progressive, fatal illness. Bill W. says on page 30, "We are convinced to a man that alcoholics of our type are in the grip of a progressive illness. Over any considerable period we get worse, never better." Pretty revealing, huh. It explains many things I never before understood.

But if you think about it, we never have to deal with ANY of this if we DON'T put alcohol into our bodies in the first place. So the MAIN problem of the alcoholic centers in their mind and in their spiritual condition. My mind tells me it's okay to TAKE the first drink and doesn't see that what I'm about to do is harmful (otherwise known as the obsession or powerlessness), and if I'm NOT spiritually fit I can't STAND being sober because it's too uncomfortable (otherwise known as unmanageability). Coincidentally, the Steps deal DIRECTLY and EFFECTIVELY with both.

So that's what it means to be an alcoholic - I can't handle drinking and I can't handle not drinking.

Barefoot Bill


Link

Thanks for posting this !


My H and I have had conversations about this.
As a "normie" I cannot understand his craving.
As an "alchie", H would be appalled when I left half a beer in my glass because I'd "had enough".

To the drinking "alchie", there is never the point of enough.

I'd say to H:
"But, doesn't it feel awful when you feel all bloated, and get dizzy and feel stupid and have a headache?"

H just laughs at me and answers:
"No."

Pep,

My WH also can not understand HOW I could have only ONE beer out of a case on a warm summer night, or buy a bottle of wine and only drink ONE glass out of it.

"Wasteful" is what he would call it.

Is there a level/type of alcoholism that doesn't produce physcial withdrawl symptoms? Symtoms like the DT's (for lack of better word). Perhaps that is why many alc's don't think they are alcoholics because when they stop for a while they don't get the shaking,headaches, vomiting that are associated with alcoholics when they don't drink for a while.

Mitz, in response to your question .....

The 20 questions:

The BB asks only two questions rather than the 10-20 or hundreds used by treatmant centers or shrinks


1. When you begin to drink do you drink way more than anticipated and get drunk? What we are asking is does this happen?





This explains why my friends would go home at the end of the night-move on with their plans they made-maybe with or without alcohol-

I would drink until forced to quit - go to work or-just plain exhaustion-Plans I made would be bypassed to drink and most of the times I could not function well enough to perform the plans made anyways
.
2. If your not drinking are you thinking about drinking? The obsession.






The phyical hook insures that I can never drink safely drink again without the "phenomonen" developing and this does not go away. The aging process insures it will alway progress even when I dont drink.

To this day my mind will try to trick my body and say it will be different this time-you will only have 2- My body insures this will not happen.

I am extremely cautious with cold medicines-foods-candy with liquor-Even at communion I take from the center of the tray. Our church uses plain grape juice in those instead of wine for guys like me.

Some Moderate and most Heavy drinkers drink just like alcoholics. THE DIFFERENCE IS THEY DO NOT DEVELOP THE PHENOMONON OF CRAVING. They are the guys who say well I just gave it up because I got a DWI or went on blood pressure medication-DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY YOU NEED MEETINGS OR WHATS UP WITH A RELAPSE?

THEY DON'T EXPERIENCE THE CRAVING OR THE OBSESSION OF THE MIND. That is why we ask potential sponsees these two questions. If they do not have either then they will not relate to a lot of what the experience was. I won't work with them as a sponsor because they will not get what I am talking about. I will help them but not as a sponsor.

EDIT ADD
I do not pronounce anyone alcoholic. We encourage them to attend meetings and see if they fit or can relate to what is being said. We do not fight with them as to their status. If this is the case we encourage them to try "Controlled drinking" for a period of time and come back and tell us how that went for them. If they have the alcoholic mind usually their life experience will get worse in a short time.
End edit

Digging around on the co-dependancy yet. My hard drive is a little slow at digging pieces out and putting them in proper order to make sense. Seeing things a bit clearer now as I am in PlanB and staying dark. No more rescues and using IM.

nESRE

I spent 30 years diagnosing (whatever).
Alcoholism was often one of those diagnoses available to me.
As was drug abuse.
Or, medication abuse.
It was part of my job.
I diagnosed alcoholic dementia in a woman who NEVER self identified as an alcoholic.

My H, The Mr Pep, feels exactly the way you do.
That is "program".
Me? I'm not from that tribe.

I am addicted to diagnosing.
LOL

bbDefinition of OBSESSION-Meriam-Webster


1: a persistent disturbing preoccupation with an often unreasonable idea or feeling; broadly : compelling motivation <an obsession with profits>

2: something that causes an obsession


Answers the questions about a lot of situations

How a man who comes to groups brother died from sirrocis (sp) 2 years ago and how he now laid in the hospital until saturday being detoxed. Went in with BAL of .42

How a former member of our group drove approx 35 mile one way to and from work. He would talk about driving home and never remember picking up a bottle and then realize he was getting off the freeway at his exit and realize he was working on the bottle. He said he could not even tell you which liquor store he stopped at with 100% accuracy.

Describes my W with not being able to say where or when she would pick up alcohol. Just knew because of physical evidence she had.

Explains a lot to me when I go into the prison once a month. Repeat offenders, some that have lived their whole adult life going through the revolving door, can never add up exactly where their problems come from.

Explains a lady who comes to our group and is yellow as can be. Opened up at the second or third meeting about her liver being shot and her doc told she can never drink again. She now sits and doesn't say more than intro and passes at her turn to talk. It has been several months and I can't prove but I swear she is turning more yellow.

They can't see the forest because of all them damn trees in the way.




Yes it is "Program". We have to be able to climb in the same trench as the suffering, gain their trust as one who knows what it is like, and hopefully lead them to recovery. The denial can be overwhmingly strong as is yur example of the lady with dimentia.

Pep-We appreciate those of you in the medical field and great steps have been made to recognize and recommend treatment. Any true alcoholic though usually will try to BS you through the denial. Usually the true alcoholic is not trusting of the medical field until it is 100% clear they have no other options but to trust you. When or if the person doesn't follow through with the medical then thats where the Program hopefully can step in.

You have no idea how much you and Mr. Pep are helping me from the CD side. By pulling up that defination another piece of the puzzle just fell into place.

2: something that causes an obsession. WW+alcoholic=Me for the last few years.

My obsession=I should know how to fix this (WW's alcoholism) with all the knowledge I have.

Becoming clearer as with what you posted about your son this is way out of my hands and into far greater. No slips from my side since police visit.


Thanks a bunch.

nESRE

cirrhosis .... spelling, for next time

How goes it?

Here?
It goes the way it's supposed to go, not the way I try & force it to go.

I'm with 'dat.

='s nESRE mind your own business and let God Work this out. Its way outta your league!

I'm tellin' ya .... It works!

I keep coming back to read your original quote:



Only God can heal such a place.
I might function as a tool God can use, but it's definitely not within my power to fill/fix such a broken soul.

Pep

P77 of the BB





I can't effectively perform that duty when I am obsessed with ANYTHING OR ANYONE.

A lot has happened since I last posted to this thread.

Would you look at nESRE's notes after a while when I post. SOME OF IT MAY ACTUALY INVOLVE MB QUESTIONS!!!

nESRE

The way I've heard this completes the thought:

Thanks Fred.