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Ugh. This is so hard. His schedule was to be with his dad from Friday evening until Sat evening and then again Sunday afternoon. He got upset with his dad Saturday about noon and begged to come home. At first XH said no he couldn't come....then he said he could. So we picked him up at around 1 or so. Today he woke up begging to not have to go with his dad. We went to services and then when we got home he called his dad and begged to not have to go this afternoon.

It was pretty bad. We got to XH's house and ds refused to get out of the car....XH threatened to whip him, took away his Itouch, threatened to call the Sheriff....ds began to sob and cry...ugh. Eventually I was able to convince ds that his dad was not going to give in and that things were only going to get worse. I tried to stay out of it and let XH deal with it....but it was getting horrible. Ds finally gets out of the car and goes in.

About 30 minutes after I left, Ds called me from under his bed at his dad's...crying...saying he wants me. I told him to get up and go outside and enjoy the sunshine and maybe watch some tv....and that he would be ok...that he was only making it hard on himself.

He also told me earlier that he didn't want OW and her son coming over..I told him he should tell his dad that.

XH is treating son much the way he always treated me. Bullying, threatening, name calling, belittling.

This is very hard to watch....very hard line to walk to encourage him to respect his father while not dismissing the very real problems XH has in dealing with ds.

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Oh Smiling, I know this pain but as a grandparent. My granddaughter (7) has started to cry and cry when her dad comes to pick her up for visitation. It's heartbreaking to know there is nothing you can do about it. I think you handled it the best way you could. There's nothing you can do about it except teach DS that life is not always getting what you want and to try and make the best of things. Now, if your EXH is abusing DS, that's a whole nother thing.


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Originally Posted by princessmeggy
Oh Smiling, I know this pain but as a grandparent. My granddaughter (7) has started to cry and cry when her dad comes to pick her up for visitation. It's heartbreaking to know there is nothing you can do about it. I think you handled it the best way you could. There's nothing you can do about it except teach DS that life is not always getting what you want and to try and make the best of things. Now, if your EXH is abusing DS, that's a whole nother thing.

While I was driving home I called my mom and told her all about it....she can't hardly take it....esp knowing all the ways XH treated me and how we both see the pattern of him starting in on ds now.

I don't think Ds is in physical danger. It is more of a psychological danger. So hard to explain how XH is...but here is ds's version of what happened yesterday.

He and his dad were playing Legos and his dad wanted one of ds's people. Ds didn't want to give it up....XH got mad and told ds he is selfish...and then told him he was going to get an ice cream sandwich from the kitchen and ds couldn't have one. Then he proceeds to eat it in front of ds and say, 'yum, this is good, too bad you can't have one.' Then ds got upset and went into his room and hid under the bed (drama)...XH goes in and tells ds 'you are being so immature.' Then after he agrees to let ds come home he tells ds, 'when you are at services in the morning, you be sure and remember how you acted today--how selfish you were.'

Ds was crushed by all of that. He said his dad was calling him names and making fun of him. XH gets on the phone to tell me, 'he is going to tell you that I called him names but I didn't...I told him he was acting selfish.'

And then today during the time we sat in the car in XH's driveway ds was crying and telling me he was afraid of his dad. I told him to just go to his room and hang out..he said his dad wouldn't allow it....would tell him he is being rude for not being in the living room with XH. And that he got in trouble for going into his room to escape OW's 6 year old son. I asked XH if that was true and he said no...ds speaks up and says, 'yes it its!!' XH glares at ds and says, in a very belittling voice, 'fine! go hide in your room under the bed, I don't care what you do.'

Does that translate? I just know X so well, and that is how he treats people when they don't respond to him or situations the way HE wants.

How long has your dgd been having to go to visitation? Why do you think she doesn't want to go now? Ds has been going for over 18 months and most of the time he doesn't mind....but I think he gets REALLY mad when his dad has no regard for what is going on in ds's life---

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Originally Posted by SmilingWoman
Originally Posted by princessmeggy
Now, if your EXH is abusing DS, that's a whole nother thing.

I don't think Ds is in physical danger. It is more of a psychological danger. So hard to explain how XH is...but here is ds's version of what happened yesterday. . . . .

SW, the problem here is that your X is psychologically abusing your son. Yes, it's abuse. No, there's not much you can do about it.

Talk to your lawyer about the situation. He may be able to help you get supervised visitation or get at least get it reduced. Also, you need to ask your lawyer what would happen if you took your son for visitation and he refused to get out of the car. It will happen some day.

Eventually, your son will get too big for his father to pick on him. Some day, he'll be old enough to decide who he wants to see, and he'll never see his father again.

My 23yo dd has not seen or talked to her father in nearly a year. She stopped seeing him a few months after we separated. My second dd stopped seeing him back in October after the way he treated her for her birthday.

Last edited by Kirby; 02/13/11 11:19 PM.

Me: BS 51
Himself: WH 53, EA/PA w/ RunnerSlut his "running buddy."
Buncha' kids. The two youngest are still minors.
Separated: 08/13/09 after 25 years of marriage
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I don't get these guys who treat their kids this way. I can understand the kid not wanting to go. It is confusing to them. But, the dad can make it soooooo much easier just by helping the kid adjust through it. Why have to be a butt?

XH sounds like a bully. He gets his rocks off by trying to dominate others. Those type of guys are such cowards most of the time.


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Originally Posted by Cardman
I don't get these guys who treat their kids this way. I can understand the kid not wanting to go. It is confusing to them. But, the dad can make it soooooo much easier just by helping the kid adjust through it. Why have to be a butt?

XH sounds like a bully. He gets his rocks off by trying to dominate others. Those type of guys are such cowards most of the time.

He is a bully. He always has been. I am a very strong personality and he was still able to beat me down until I was not a doormat but changed nonetheless. I hate to see that happen to my son...thankfully ds only has to spend about 78 hours a month with him.

I am not sure he gets off---I think he is just an idiot and doesn't know how to treat anyone.

Yesterday when ds began crying, XH looked into the car and with distain on his face said, 'oh he is going to start crying now.'

And (with XH out of earshot--he kept walking away and then coming back to the car) I told ds, 'if you are upset, call me anytime. Your dad HAS to let you call me anytime you want.' He said, 'If I ask to call you he will call me a momma's boys.'

I know it is true. I know because I have a long history with that man. I hate him.


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Yeah... your XH is definitely a piece of work. Understatement of the century really. I'm kind of curious about something that you may not be able to answer. Does your XH legitimately want to see your son or is he taking him at his court appointed times to hurt you? It doesn't seem like he has a real interest to be a father unless I'm missing something (he calls and talks to him when he's with you, makes it to his sporting events, takes part in school activities, etc).

Travis


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Originally Posted by tccoastguard
Yeah... your XH is definitely a piece of work. Understatement of the century really. I'm kind of curious about something that you may not be able to answer. Does your XH legitimately want to see your son or is he taking him at his court appointed times to hurt you? It doesn't seem like he has a real interest to be a father unless I'm missing something (he calls and talks to him when he's with you, makes it to his sporting events, takes part in school activities, etc).Travis

I do believe in his weird way he loves our son. However, it FEELS like he has kept up visitation MOSTLY to keep contact with me AND/OR to impreess homewrecker. He knows what is socially expected of a divorced father and he tries to keep that up.

He does not call ds when ds is with me. He was out shopping the other day (I am almost POSITIVE he was with homewrecker and her son) and he called me asking what size jeans and shirt ds wears. (not bothering to ask if ds actually NEEDED jeans or shirts--but I just answered his question--didn't try to educate him). Then he sent me a text with a picture of the two sets of jeans/shirt he bought ds.

Ds was in swim until this past month---we are taking a few months off---and XH rarely showed up to watch him swim...Swim from 4-5 and he gets off work at 5 30 minutes away...but he could take off once in a while to watch ds....

XH NEVER asks me one single thing about ds's schooling. Ever. Even though XH claims to be against me homeschooling our son. ONE time I sent a half hour of school work for ds to finish at his dad's house and it never even came out of the folder. When I mentioned it to XH he said hatefully, 'You want to homeschool then you get it done on your time.' So that was the last time I did that. I foolishly thought he might like to see what ds is working on and interact with him on that a bit.

The thing is.....he was not involved in our life when we were married and now he has no life with ds. They see a movie, go out to eat, have homewrecker over, and that is about it. Twice in the summer he took him to the lake with some friends of XH's that ds had never met. It isn't ds's life---we have friends, our religion, our congregation, family, activities, a schedule. Going to his dad's is fine if there is some fun thing to do..but ds doesn't really want to hang out with his dad either.

I don't know. I am rambling. He punished ds yesterday for his 'rudeness' by taking away his Itouch for 2 weeks. We had agreed to carrying restrictions from house to house, so I feel I need to honor that, but I hate him...and if this kind of thing continues, I will tell him that deal is off....I am not going to restrict my son for this type of thing.

Calling our son 'immature'. My dh said, 'hello!!! He is 10.'


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Originally Posted by SmilingWoman
I don't know. I am rambling. He punished ds yesterday for his 'rudeness' by taking away his Itouch for 2 weeks. We had agreed to carrying restrictions from house to house, so I feel I need to honor that, but I hate him...and if this kind of thing continues, I will tell him that deal is off....I am not going to restrict my son for this type of thing.

Calling our son 'immature'. My dh said, 'hello!!! He is 10.'

Listen to your dh.

You need to end the deal of carrying over restrictions between houses immediately. I, personally, wouldn't bother to tell him that it has changed. I would explain to my son that I am not following through with punishments that I don't feel are warranted and leave it at that.

If XH isn't willing to do his part for homeschooling (a legitimate thing), you certainly don't need to help him punish your son this time (which isn't legitimate based on your description).

Guys like that make me sick. He mistreats his kid and then expects the kid to apologize to him. He's JUST LIKE my husband. We call him "Himself" because that's the only person he cares about.

I'm so sorry you're living this life. If I had divorced my WstbXH when the kids were younger that's what it would have been like.

If it helps, I suspect that your Xh will stop seeing your son as he gets older. He only sees him because he's showing off for homewrecker and annoying you. After RunnerSlut dumped my WstbXH, he stopped even ASKING to see the kids.


Me: BS 51
Himself: WH 53, EA/PA w/ RunnerSlut his "running buddy."
Buncha' kids. The two youngest are still minors.
Separated: 08/13/09 after 25 years of marriage
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Your XH is a very sick man. Please do a Google search for "Narcissistic Parent".

He will continue to abuse your son the way he abused you. Please do that search because you need to understand what you are dealing with, but be prepared to be shocked. NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder) parents and spouses do tremendous damage. Please look into this and see if you can get a good child psychologist to say your son should not be subjected to this ever again. It may help with this courts and maybe you can get the visitation changed.


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I want to thank you all for validating my feelings about this.

I know my son was rude to his father...he hung up on him when his dad said he had to come...then later I heard him leave his dad a growling message that said, 'I don't want to go!!' On the way to his dads we had this conversation
SW: Son you are to be respectful to your father.
DS: He doesn't deserve it!
SW: I don't recall the Bible saying we are only to be respectful when our parents deserve it. It says honor your father and your mother and that includes being respectful. You may tell him how you feel and what you would like to happen, but you are not to be rude and hang up on him like you did.
DS: Glaring silence.

I let it soak in a bit...then said,

SW: And son this is for YOUR benefit. Because it is what God requires of you and you have to do what God requires.

I have read A LOT about NPD and BPD. I can tell you that his mom hits the NPD characteristics 10 for 10 DEAD ON. I haven't read it with XH in mind in many years....think I will so, as Mulan says I can know what I am dealing with.

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So what your saying is your ex is a Disney dad without the Disney.

At what age is your son able to make up his mind about going to his dads?

Make sure you document your ex's treatment of your son, just in case it comes up in court.

Your ex is the perfect example of the Cat's in the Cradle song.

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NPD, the successor to Bipolar as mental condition of the year. Why do people have to always come up with a disease or condition to explain someone's behavior? Some people are just walking talking rectums - why can't we leave it at that?

I almost wonder if your husband is one of those men who feel that they have to toughen up a kid, make him a man, etc. These people are not usually much of a man themselves and put on the tough act to disguise their weakness. What they don't realize that they're doing is driving away their child, making an enemy by tearing down instead of building up.

I would try to talk to your XH (out of hearing of your son) and just ask him why he is this way with your son, and let him know that his actions are having the opposite effect of what he may intend. That sissy, baby, and momma's boy are not going to draw him closer to his son. If he doesn't want to listen or turns it into a fight, then I would consider legal action and perhaps a social worker evaluation of your son, let him tell his story, and perhaps the court could mandate counseling for your XH as a condition of visitation.


The one constant through all the years has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It's been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt, and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game, is a part of our past. It reminds us of all that once was good, and it could be again.
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SmilingWoman, here is a very interesting MB thread dealing with narcissism:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2336925&page=1

NPD comes up around here often because narcissists are prime candidates to become adulterers. NPD is not a "disease"; it's really just a fancy word for Attention Addict. You are dealing with the equivalent of a crackhead, not someone who is mentally ill (though his behaviour is completely sick, as is the behaviour of any other addict).

It's easier to deal with something if you understand what it really is.


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SW, why don't you give the lawyer who rep'd you in the D a call and get his opinion on what can be done? At least get a legal opinion on your rights in NOT being held in contempt if the kid just won't go. I found precedent in CA where an 11yo was able to decide to forgo visitation.


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Originally Posted by CWMI
SW, why don't you give the lawyer who rep'd you in the D a call and get his opinion on what can be done? At least get a legal opinion on your rights in NOT being held in contempt if the kid just won't go. I found precedent in CA where an 11yo was able to decide to forgo visitation.

If things continue like the last two visits I will have to get a consult....however, my big problem is that ds sometimes DOES want to go. I think at this point it might just look like ds is being a bratty almost 11 year old....wanting to come home when he didn't get his way and/or not wanting to go to his dad's when something more fun was going on at home (his step brothers were here and we were making cookies).

I know it is more than that though. I know enough time has passed since the initial seperation and then divorce that XH can't keep up the front he started at the beginning.

XH VERY much believes boys need to be 'tough'....and just for the record ds is no little sissy. He is rough and tumble, romping and playing all the time. XH knows NOTHING about childhood development but thinks he is qualified to say that ds is 'immature'. He isn't. He is very typical for his age....and that includes sometimes he cries and sometimes he wants his mom.


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Originally Posted by CWMI
SW, why don't you give the lawyer who rep'd you in the D a call and get his opinion on what can be done? At least get a legal opinion on your rights in NOT being held in contempt if the kid just won't go. I found precedent in CA where an 11yo was able to decide to forgo visitation.

I half way WANTED the sheriff called yesterday as I sat in the driveway of XH with ds sobbing 'please don't make me.' The sheriff might have made ds get out of the car, but XH would have had to insist. And the fact that XH even knew to call the Sheriff indicates homewrecker is telling him his 'rights'. He sang a whole different tune between Saturday when he let him go early (hanging his head as we drove away....and saying 'I"ll never make you stay if you don't want to) and then Sunday he was all insistant that ds come for visitation telling me, 'If I let him skip today it will just always be something to keep him from coming.'

And then he told ds, 'when you get to be 18 and don't want to see me anymore then you can come to me like a man (more of that crap) and tell me that, but until then you have to come see me. (I didn't point out that there is no way in heck ds will be forced to keep seeing his dad until he is 18).

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Originally Posted by americajin
NPD, the successor to Bipolar as mental condition of the year. Why do people have to always come up with a disease or condition to explain someone's behavior? Some people are just walking talking rectums - why can't we leave it at that?

I almost wonder if your husband is one of those men who feel that they have to toughen up a kid, make him a man, etc. These people are not usually much of a man themselves and put on the tough act to disguise their weakness. What they don't realize that they're doing is driving away their child, making an enemy by tearing down instead of building up.

I would try to talk to your XH (out of hearing of your son) and just ask him why he is this way with your son, and let him know that his actions are having the opposite effect of what he may intend. That sissy, baby, and momma's boy are not going to draw him closer to his son. If he doesn't want to listen or turns it into a fight, then I would consider legal action and perhaps a social worker evaluation of your son, let him tell his story, and perhaps the court could mandate counseling for your XH as a condition of visitation.

I agree with what I highlighted. I have tried many many times to tell him that he doesn't treat his son right both before and after the divorce....but he wants to talk it to death and prove me how wrong I am...he has some twisted image of what kids should be like or maybe he doesn't even like kids. The thing is he thinks he is 'making a man of ds' or some crap. I like men to be real men but I can't get across to XH that you only mess up a boy by trying to make him a man when he is still a boy!

His mother treats him and his brothers JUST like this. And he NEVER wanted to be like her...it is like he just can't see it though.


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Unfortunately the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. I would call him on this, asking him to remember what he told you about his upbringing and how he didn't want to be like his Mom, but how he has turned out just like her.

Don't think he is cognizant of just how close he is to losing his son forever. It's one thing to try to teach a boy something, and at 11 years old he is still a boy, it's another to teach a teenager or young man who is mature enough to process criticism from an adult. A continual verbal beatdown doesn't teach anyone anything but to escape the one delivering it.


The one constant through all the years has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It's been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt, and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game, is a part of our past. It reminds us of all that once was good, and it could be again.
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Originally Posted by americajin
NPD, the successor to Bipolar as mental condition of the year. Why do people have to always come up with a disease or condition to explain someone's behavior? Some people are just walking talking rectums - why can't we leave it at that?

Yes and no.

Bipolar is caused by messed up chemicals in the brain. In some ways the person doesn't have any control over it because part of the time they feel like they're on uppers and part of the time they feel like they're on downers.

With the correct medication, someone who is bipolar can level out and learn to keep more of a balance. They're not capable of fixing their behavior without medication. Once they are properly medicated, they probably need some kind of therapy to help them learn to live a balanced life, but the core of the problem is chemical.

When someone has a personality disorder, it's just the opposite. The central problem is that they don't think or act like the rest of us. My husband probably has Narcissistic Personality Disorder. He has told me that he doesn't feel empathy for other people. In some very basic ways, it's like he never left the toddler stage.

People with personality disorders may also have depression or some other psychological symptom that can be helped with medication. But mostly they need long term behavioral therapy.



Me: BS 51
Himself: WH 53, EA/PA w/ RunnerSlut his "running buddy."
Buncha' kids. The two youngest are still minors.
Separated: 08/13/09 after 25 years of marriage
Plan D: Filed 11/13/09 Final 3/30/11
MC told me that he probably has a personality disorder
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