I HAVE told him this but he only sees it as me trying to control him in some way.

He should have cut his mother out of his life when he was 18 and left home. And ds will certainly have my support if that is what he wants to do. It is a fine line to walk to not spread a message of hate to ds about his father, while at the same time be clear to him that the way his dad treats him is UNacceptable.

His mother used material things to help her keep her hold on XH all these years. I hope to instill in ds that no amount of material things is worth allowing yourself to be mistreated.

Years ago when I researched PDs trying to figure out WHY my then husband was so impossible, I remember reading that bi-polar is like a blemish on a piece of cloth where as NPD (and other PDs) is like a bad piece of thread woven into the cloth.

As I said, I haven't looked at it in years, but I remember thinking my XH was BPish and his mother was dead on NPD. NPD mothers often turn out BP children.

I would amend this to "All Addicts are walking, talking rectums."

NPD = Attention Addict. They look at other people, even their own children, as nothing but sources of attention. It's the same way an alcohol looks at a bottle of booze - "what's it going to do for me?"

Counseling is worse than useless with NPDs. It just gives them another source of attention. You may as well try to talk an meth addict into stopping, and you can imagine how effective that is. The attention is just as much a drug as meth or crack, and the only way they will stop is if they hit bottom.

If you think of your XH as a complete addict for attention, praise, strokes and sucking up - who would sell his soul or anyone else's to get it, including his children's souls - I think you'll see it that the behaviour starts to make sense.

It's not deep and mysterious, and it's not a mental illness. NPD is just another addiction and these people do everything an addict does and say everything an addict says. And the only hope for them is to treat them exactly like addicts.

Please look up Dr. Drew Pinsky's recent book on this subject. You can read parts of it for free on amazon.com.

What I meant to say was that it seems like everybody and their brother is either "bipolar" or "narcissistic". Pop psychology. I really think that only licensed professionals should attempt to make diagnoses.

I will do that. I remember your thread on NPD and I looked back over it just now.

I know I can't really diagnose him, but I am telling you there is something wrong with him. He is still seeing Homewrecker but that relationship seems very weird to me. Ds told me he doesn't want his dad having homewrecker and her son over but is afraid to tell his dad.

Now that I am remarried and XH knows there is no chance I will take him back I think he is starting to act very different.

Talked to ds again this evening about it. He told me that after he went in the house yesterday his dad told him that the law says he has to keep seeing his dad until he is 18. I told ds that was ABSOLUTELY not true. I told him that I wasn't sure of the age and that it might even be 11 or 12...ds wanted to know 'what is the OLDEST it could be mom?' I told him I would find out. I reiterated that the way his dad treats him is UNacceptable and I am sorry he has to deal with it.

Can you and your son read the book "Boundaries" by Cloud and Townsend together?

How about you rehearse boundaries with your son, you know, role playing, so that you son can get a feel for what's respectful to his father while simultaneously standing up for himself.

Is there any sort of help you can get your son? Clergy? Someone who would be the equivilant of a school counselor for home schoolers?

ETA: I know you verbalize that you are sorry your son has to deal with his dad. I'm wondering how you say this with your actions?

It's a tough line for a mom to have to walk to teach principles like respect. I was able to do this from a place of having a diagnosed mental illness and my husband truly didn't have the ability to recognize his illogical and psychologically abusive behavior. Because of that I was able to mitigate some of the abuse damage.

I started reading passages of Think and Grow Rich to my son when he was your son's age. I talked with him and listened to him while he focused on what was within his power. My son learned that giving respect defines himself, not the person to whom he gives respect. A lot of people never get this. They think it's impossible to respect someone behaving so badly. Hogwash! That means they have to be constantly judging who is worthy of respect and who is not; meanwhile they allow a person behaving badly to define their own behavior.

My son learned that he defines his own behavior. He's now in college with 7 roommates - 4 of which can't wait to get drunk on the weekends. While alcohol is not allowed in the dorm, these four leave campus to find a bar to get smashed in. The other three along with my son are sober, polite young men. My son feels a sense of freedom in not having to judge his roommates but he notices the disrespectful behavior toward him and his 3 sober roommates; but he also recognizes there's nothing to be gained by becoming disrespectful himself. He's seeing those tough life lessons learned while dealing with an out-of-balance father coming back to help him stay grounded as an adult away from home now.

You need to get DS 10 into a good counselor. I hope you have insurance that will cover. Talk to your sons ped. to get a good reccomendation.

Nothing you are going to say or do is going to make XH treat him well. Your DS needs to hear that his feelings are valid, and no one...NO ONE can humiliate him for his feelings, nor shame him into submission.

This needs to not only come from you, but from someone outside the family. Seriously, this is not a Mom vs. Dad thing... this is a validation thing for your kid.

Please do everything in your power to get your son some IC support, I know IC are not (sometimes) respected here, but he obviously is conflicted AND being abused by his father.

I am so sorry to read this. Poor kid.

My H and DD18 have always had a terrible realtionship. I had to drag her like a cat to a bathtub to see a counselor (when she was about 13.. maybe 14).

Thank GOD I have great insurance.

After a very few short sessions, my DD18 really liked talking to her, even though things never went rosy between her father and her, she became much more confident in her dealings with him.

They are too much alike, or too seperate, but if someday they both grow up and have a positive relationship, it will be because of the IC. (I feel)

I go over very specific behaviors of my son toward his father that are disrespectful. Hanging up on him. Growling into the phone. I point out that those are rude actions that are not acceptable. I am not sure what you mean by showing him with my actions how sorry I am that he is in this situation.

SW, I've been thinking about what you said about baking cookies with your step-sons...and I wonder if there is any way the group of ya'll can arrange visitation so that your H's boys are not there when your son goes to his father's.

Removing the 'diagnosis' of your ex for a moment, and think about it. Your son has had you pretty much to himself his whole life, and then he has to leave while you are playing mommy to some other boys. He could be jealous, and unintentionally acting out toward his father for putting him in a position to be removed from his mother. Compounded by having to be removed while she mothers someone else.

I'm not saying this to excuse your ex's behavior, at all. He is the supposed 'grown-up', but not acting like it. But maybe you all could find a way to make it easier on your son, and perhaps knowing that you're not mommying someone else while he's away will make that easier.

Just a thought, I don't know your arrangements, but maybe you think it's worth looking into? It would take four very grown people to pull off, but worth it for everyone's future happiness. If indeed there is some jealousy there, and I fail to see how there could not be.

Are you working with your son to teach him about proper boundaries? Are you getting your son help so that he understands that his dad's behavior is not his fault and that your son understands he should not have to deal with it at all.

It's like any other thing: to build up trust, our behaviors must follow our words. So, what actions are you taking to support/protect your son from your ex?

We have the boys at the same time normally. We had dhs boys 2 weekenda in a row because of bad weather last weekend.

Well yes as I said I do talk to ds a lot about things. He understands the way his dad acts at times is wrong. I am under court order though so not sure what you are thinking I could do. If it was just some random person treating him badly I would remove that person from our lives. Can't do that when it is his his dad.

More on this...just so you all know where I am coming from....When ds went to his dad's Friday evening his step brothers were not even here yet. He knew they were coming, and that he would see them Sat night, but he didn't see them Friday before he went to his dad's. When I picked him up Sat we were all in the car headed to a movie and ds says, 'Oh I forgot the boys were here!' So I don't believe he wanted to come home because of the boys being here....I really do believe it was because of his dad being so mean to him.

Now Sunday's situation started early Sunday morning with ds saying first thing he didn't want to go to his dad's. He often doesn't want to go when there is something fun going on...and I agree it was difficult for him to leave while we were making cookies. We assured him we would save him some and make more the next weekend. However, he gets FURIOUS when his dad doesn't let him miss when he wants. To me it feels like ds must feel like he has always done all these things with me and the people in his life and now he routinely is denied his normal routine because he has to go see his dad.

And that has been the case since before I met dh and his boys. I remember one time last summer we had to leave a swim party to make visitation and ds asked his dad if he could skip so he could keep on swimming....his dad said no...ds was SOOOOO mad.

Don't get me wrong, there are some jealousy issues with ds and his stepbrothers....but this issue with his dad seems largely unrelated to me.

You could request a guardian at litem for your son. It's basically an attorney that works for him and not you or your ex. My step-daughter had one appointed and after his report to the judge the judge asked to speak to her privately in his chambers and she told him how she felt about visitation and he changed the order by her request.

SW, you know a thing or two by now about how to handle bullies, right? Have someone who he feels intimdated by, like maybe your Dad, put your x on notice that he knows what is going on, and is going to keep an eye on the situation. Bullies like to think no one knows what they do, and don't act when there will be consequences.

This was the child of the woman whose husband you stole? Ugh. NC, I have to tell you that was HUGELY triggering for me. However, to your point....

My son doesn't want to NEVER see his father again. I doubt seriously a judge would take kindly to this kind of stuff that is relatively petty compared to some of what goes on in the divorce courts with juveniles. My XH looks good on paper (except for the affair that destroyed his son's family). He has a good job, has a beautiful home, well maintained picture perfect. So basically ds would be saying to a judge, 'I want to go see my dad when *I* want to go see him. And sometimes he is mean to me and makes fun of me and calls me momma's boy.'

It would not be worth it unless things get worse. Better I think to ride it out since ds is 11 and there are really only a few more years of this junk. In the meantime I will just enjoy my (majority) time with son and keep reminding him he won't always have to tolerate his dad being mean to him.

He is already feeling the pressure of it I know. He was on his best behavior for visitation on Wednesday. He knows I tell everyone everything and he can't stand it that his neighbors (my friends-not his because of what he did) know what a loser he is. And he knows of course that my husband knows what ds is upset about....and he knows ds is so close to me that he tells me everything. He really knows he has very little chance of keeping his bullying ways a secret.

The real problem comes in because he doesn't KNOW what is actually acceptable. Only when I express shock over a 'parenting' tactic (such as eating a ice cream in front of ds and saying 'too bad you can't have any') does he really see that others might disagree with that kind of junk.

And my dad is very angry. He is not the type of man to get involved though.

SW...I admit first that I haven't read through or caught up, but just from your most recent posts on this, I am very concerned for your son. I feel like he is being emotionally abused if not in other ways as well. Hiding under the bed? Begging that OW and her son not come over? Please get him to a psychologist and get to the bottom of this. I feel sick over what I'm reading here.