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Unless he is breaking forum rules, or a moderator redirects him, who are we, guests of Dr. Harley on this site, to say disparaging things to him? I don't think we have to condone his past to give him some direction, unless it is against the rules. Who we are are people of decency who know right from wrong and are willing to point that out. His behavior is very disparaging and cruel, so naturally people will point that out. The people who point that out are not the bad guys, FHL. The bad guys are the ones who destroy marriages and the families of little children in the pursuit of a cheap thrill. The bad guys are the ones who teach little kids that wrong is right. I would point out that it is not against the rules on this forum to point out how vulgar and debased this lifestyle is. The name of this site is Marriage Builders. I for one never thought of it as first and foremost an infidelity site. Yes, we know. And this is how his relationship differs from a marriage, it is what Dr Harley calls an "affairage." Just because a person is a "human" does not mean that others are obliged to help them in pursuit of destructive, harmful pursuits. That is not compassionate, that is a form of enabling.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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The name of this site is Marriage Builders. I for one never thought of it as first and foremost an infidelity site.
He is married and innocent children are at risk. He asked for help.
No one should help him that feels uncomfortable with his situation. But why would someone help?
Because he is another human. We have all done something to mess up our lives. We are all capable of hurting those we are supposed to love.
I agree he may need to understand how his relationship begun has brought it to the dismal place it is now.
Unless he is breaking forum rules, or a moderator redirects him, who are we, guests of Dr. Harley on this site, to say disparaging things to him? I don't think we have to condone his past to give him some direction, unless it is against the rules. Exactly. It is MARRIAGE BUILDERS and NOT "Affair Builders"...This man openly admits he helped destroy a MARRIAGE. Yes, and those innocent children are NOT his - he needs to get away from them. HE is their enemy. He was an interloper in their family. He has no business around them. Yes, he asked for help to save his affair. He's like a bank robber asking how he can keep the money! We are helping him. It is a KIND thing to tell him to stop committing adultery. It is helpful for him to see why adultery is disgusting. You are right, we all have done something to mess up our lives at some point, but the solution is not to help the person continue doing the wrong thing. The solution is to tell them to STOP doing it. I, for one, am not talking about condemning him for something he's done in his "past"...He continues doing the same thing today. I'll state it again, adultery does not stop being adultery just because a state grants a marriage license. Mrs. W
FWW ~ 47 ~ MeFBH ~ 50 ~ MrWonderingDD ~ 17 Dday ~ 2005 ~ Recovered
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Believe me I understand hating any kind of adultery and adulterous relationship.
But it happened. He married her and had two of their own children.
I would think the best most logical thing to do for them to stay married, so neither one breaks up other families down the road.
I am curious to know if MB speaks to this situation. Would Dr. Harley really treat them as unmarried people and not counsel them? Certainly that would be his choice, but I wonder if there is anything written about this on the site.
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I get it, FHL, you want to be "fair" or "forgiving", perhaps because you have a soft heart or because your religion tells you to forgive. Read through his post once again. Do you see anything there that even remotely resembles remorse for what he did? Any expression of sympathy or regret for what he did to another man's family? Because he is another human That's debatable. Child molesters and serial killers are supposedly human also. Why don't we ask some fathers here who have limited access to their kids what their opinions would be about "helping". Or perhaps you take a walk in their shoes and tell me if you would be so forgiving of an OW that had an affair with your husband and is now playing "Mom" to your kids? There are several guys, but I think of one in particular, that are about to endure the tender mercies of the family court system because their wives are having "such a wonderful passionate relationship" with some POS. I thought about them when I read this thread. I don't mean to jump your butt FHL, and perhaps I am wrong, but I can live with that with a clear conscience. I will say mea culpa if I offend any other poster by what I say, but know this - if this guy was standing in front of me on fire, I wouldn't piss on him to put out the flames. Just the way it is. I agree with the posters that feel sorry for the kids.
The one constant through all the years has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It's been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt, and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game, is a part of our past. It reminds us of all that once was good, and it could be again.
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But what about his 2 children with his wife? Are we suggesting that they deserve to suffer because it is "payback" to their parents for what they did to their half-siblings and their mother's XH? I am not God or King Solomon. I do not know how to balance the pain of the older kids against the pain of the younger ones. Somehow I doubt that the older kids will take any solace that the younger kids are in pain. Maybe they will take some solace that their step-father is in pain.
I don't think any harm can come from suggesting the OP stop being a selfish a$$ and learn to be a caring partner. That seems to be a "good thing" even if it improves his marriage.
I can understand the posters who feel schadenfreude that the OP has gotten what he deserved - to feel the same kind of pain he caused. But I am not sure we should go beyond that to revel in additional human carnage.
When you can see it coming, duck!
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And whenever affairages show up on this forum I always wonder if one of their betrayed spouses has sought refuge here. Yep. I always think the same thing.
Me 43 BH
MT 43 WW
Married 20 years, No Kids, 2 Difficult Cats
D-day July, 2005
4.5 False Recoveries
Me - recovered
The M - recovered
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I am curious to know if MB speaks to this situation. Would Dr. Harley really treat them as unmarried people and not counsel them? Certainly that would be his choice, but I wonder if there is anything written about this on the site. Dr Harley has come out on this subject numerous times and will privately counsel these couples even though he claims to have virtually ZERO success with them. He refers to them as "affairages" and essentially calls them hopeless. Traditionally, they have not recieved much help on the forums because they are so offensive to most folks. You can see the reaction yourself. I do know that trying to guilt trip other posters out of their natural outraged never works. Nor is it appropriate. My suggestion would be to try counseling with the Harleys one on one in a private setting. If it can be repaired that would be the best way to go, IMO. Or to find a board that is more supportive of affairs.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Believe me I understand hating any kind of adultery and adulterous relationship.
But it happened. He married her and had two of their own children.
I would think the best most logical thing to do for them to stay married, so neither one breaks up other families down the road.
I am curious to know if MB speaks to this situation. Would Dr. Harley really treat them as unmarried people and not counsel them? Certainly that would be his choice, but I wonder if there is anything written about this on the site. It is my understanding that the Harleys will counsel those in affairages, though Dr. Harley has reported little success where they are concerned. What they don't do is counsel them in a room full of the victims of adultery. DeppJones should call the coaching center and get help privately, imo. It speaks volumes that DeppJones has no qualms about asking for help in this venue. In my opinion, it is demonstrative of a continued lack of empathy. So FHL you keep talking about how "people" should help him. As I told you, I do feel that I am helping him. Perhaps it's not what you view as "help", and that is okay and you are certainly welcome to tell me so. By the same token, you are free to help him in any way that you see fit, and I am free to tell you if I don't think it's helpful. No worries. Mrs. W
FWW ~ 47 ~ MeFBH ~ 50 ~ MrWonderingDD ~ 17 Dday ~ 2005 ~ Recovered
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But what about his 2 children with his wife? Are we suggesting that they deserve to suffer because it is "payback" to their parents for what they did to their half-siblings and their mother's XH? The children are still suffering from this affair. Do you know what its like to be raised in an affair? Do you know how badly it screws with the heads of little kids to be taught that wrong is right? Don't think that for a minute that being raised in an affair makes a child more safe and secure than being raised by a single parent. Most kids know right from wrong. They SENSE IT. It takes a few years to beat down their consciences and completely morally confuse them. They might already be past the point where they stop trusting their own instincts about right and wrong and learn to DOUBT THEMSELVES and question their ability to perceive reality. As someone who raised in affairs by a corrupt parent, I can tell you that it did not make me secure, it screwed me up and took me well into my 30's to figure out right from wrong.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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[So FHL you keep talking about how "people" should help him. As I told you, I do feel that I am helping him. Perhaps it's not what you view as "help", and that is okay and you are certainly welcome to tell me so. I agree with this 100%. All of the posts on this thread are very "helpful." Just because a person does not agree that this affairage should be propped up does not mean they are not being helpful. Propping up an affairage is not my idea of "help."
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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But what about his 2 children with his wife? Are we suggesting that they deserve to suffer because it is "payback" to their parents for what they did to their half-siblings and their mother's XH? I am not God or King Solomon. I do not know how to balance the pain of the older kids against the pain of the younger ones. Somehow I doubt that the older kids will take any solace that the younger kids are in pain. Maybe they will take some solace that their step-father is in pain.
I don't think any harm can come from suggesting the OP stop being a selfish a$$ and learn to be a caring partner. That seems to be a "good thing" even if it improves his marriage.
I can understand the posters who feel schadenfreude that the OP has gotten what he deserved - to feel the same kind of pain he caused. But I am not sure we should go beyond that to revel in additional human carnage. Yes, in affairages everyone gets a nice sized slice of the "hurt pie"...They are disastrous to our society. The BEST thing for the children of an affairge would have been adoption. Obviously, that ship has sailed, not to mention it wouldn't have happened anyway - active adulterers would never put someone else's interests above their own. I have been an adulterer. I can assure you that when I was, I was NOT a fit parent. Neither are these two. You can't raise children to have morals in a house wrought with immorality. It would be better for the parents to go their separate ways and explain to their children WHY. Teaching the children to be moral by example would be the MOST caring thing to do, imo. Mrs. W
FWW ~ 47 ~ MeFBH ~ 50 ~ MrWonderingDD ~ 17 Dday ~ 2005 ~ Recovered
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Hold, I am not someone to revel in anyone's misfortune, and if you knew me in real life you would know that I really love kids and so yes, I feel for both sets of kids. By not wanting to help this...person, I am not causing the children any misery, that is coming from their parents.
This guy doesn't care for anyone but himself. He didn't come here asking for commiseration or help because of what may potentially happen to his kids - he came here because he's no longer "happy".
Edited to add: So, ladies and gents, I guess I've had my say so I will recuse myself now. In the words of the immortal Snagglepuss: Heavens to Murgatroid, exit, stage left!
Last edited by americajin; 02/16/11 04:45 PM.
The one constant through all the years has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It's been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt, and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game, is a part of our past. It reminds us of all that once was good, and it could be again.
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Don't think that for a minute that being raised in an affair makes a child more safe and secure than being raised by a single parent. OK, so we should send the older kids to live with their father. But what about the younger kids? Both of their parents are affair partners. There is no "moral" parent here for them to live with, unless we teach one of the affair partners to become a moral person. Maybe another poster is correct and the kids should have been put up for adoption at birth. But I am guessing neither parent will agree to that now. If we refuse to assist the OP in becoming a moral person, are we not complicit in abandoning the younger children to living with the example of 2 immoral parents? Or are you suggesting that the wife here should divorce her affair partner, get back together with her BXH, and ask him to raise her 2 kids from her affair? I know K and others here have done that. But I can't imagine that most BS's will consent to that outcome. Perhaps what is most needed here is some more contrition on the part of the OP, so that there seems to be a decent chance that he is open to learning how to become a decent human being.
When you can see it coming, duck!
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But it happened. He married her and had two of their own children.
I would think the best most logical thing to do for them to stay married, so neither one breaks up other families down the road. FHL, Well to me it is not logical to throw up your hands and say, "Oh well, you already started down the wrong path, you may as well continue". I am sure glad that the people in my life didn't feel that way. Here is my thinking on this. As a Christian, and I am guessing that you are also based upon your chosen moniker here, I must look at what scripture says regarding adultery and the fate of unrepentant adulterers, and base my advice upon that. If we look at 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 we see that it says this:
9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor practicing homosexuals 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
That says to me that it would be CRUEL to hold someone's hand as they walk straight towards the gates of Hell. I see it as KINDNESS to tell someone to KNOCK IT OFF. To warn them of their fate if they do not. I hope that helps you understand my position more completely. Mrs. W
FWW ~ 47 ~ MeFBH ~ 50 ~ MrWonderingDD ~ 17 Dday ~ 2005 ~ Recovered
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Hold,
They can't become moral while living in immorality. Adultery is immoral. Adultery doesn't stop being adultery just because a state grants a marriage license. The solution, imo, would be for the parents to stop being immoral - to stop committing adultery. The children of the affairage would be better off being raised by two parents who admit to their wrongdoing and stop doing it, and from that point forward model moral behavior. Beyond that I am not sure what else to advise.
Mrs. W
FWW ~ 47 ~ MeFBH ~ 50 ~ MrWonderingDD ~ 17 Dday ~ 2005 ~ Recovered
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[But what about the younger kids? Both of their parents are affair partners. There is no "moral" parent here for them to live with, unless we teach one of the affair partners to become a moral person. Maybe another poster is correct and the kids should have been put up for adoption at birth. But I am guessing neither parent will agree to that now. If we refuse to assist the OP in becoming a moral person, are we not complicit in abandoning the younger children to living with the example of 2 immoral parents? I have not seen anyone here refuse to assist this OP in becoming a moral person, just the opposite. Many are pointing out the immorality of his position and that is the first step in becoming a moral person. I bet most folks would be willing. What ,most folks are not willing to do is aide and abet an affairage. And that is their prerogative. Personally, I don't view that as "help." My suggestion is that they seek out the Harleys and get one on one counseling in a private setting.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Q. How often (percentage-wise) do As end? Is 97% correct? Dr. Harley: "My experience, and the experience of other professionals is that about 95% of all affairs either end by one person deciding to end it, or that it dies a natural death. Of the five percent that end in marriage, about 70% of those end in divorce. There are a host of reasons that romantic relationships that start with an affair are so fragile, but the main reason is that they are based on deceit, thoughtlessness, and dishonesty. Those characteristics eventually find themselves permeating the affair itself. They eventually find themselves being deceitful, thoughtless, and dishonest toward each other." I've read through your original question and the responses you've received, and almost to a responder, they are warning you about what happens to relationship that originated as an affair. I have counseled hundreds of these couples and am presently counseling couples that married after an affair, and I can tell you from first-hand experience, and their own unsolicited comments, that if they had put the same effort into their marriages, they would be happily married to their original spouses today.
While it's true that there are happy marriages that start as affairs, they are in the minority. Only about 5% of all affairs end in marriage, and only about 1/3 of those marriages survive the first five years. You probably have one chance in 100 of turning this marriage into a successful relationship, and you're off to a terrible start in spite of your love and commitment.
I have a theory about why marriage after an affair is so unsuccessful, but the fact that they're unsuccessful is well documented. My main contention is that for whatever reasons, those who have affairs tend not to follow one of my cardinal principles for marriage: The Policy of Joint Agreement (never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse). They tend to do what they please without considering each other's feelings. While that may not apply to both members of the relationship, it almost always applies to at least one of them. Your friend's affair with another man in the beginning your your relationship is evidence that she's not thinking about your interests.
I try very hard to keep these marriages together, in spite of the fact that there is such a low probability of success. If I thought I would fail, I wouldn't be wasting my time. And yet, I have had very little success. I keep thinking that I will eventually find a way to succeed.
There are so many obsticles to overcome. In addition to failure to follow the POJA, there is also a marked failure to follow the Policy of Radical Honesty. They tend to be incredibly dishonest, in spite of the fact that they start out thinking they can look right into each other's very souls.
But there is one other issue that is terribly relevant to your situation: Blended families. I read a research report recently that claimed that only 15% of all marriages with children from another relationship survive for 25 years (on average about 50% of all marriages survive for 25 years). Again, from my perspective, the culprit is failure to follow the POJA. Instead of making joint decisions regarding the children, unilateral decisions are made. This ultimately leads to fights and constant turmoil. After the children are grown, however, the conflict does not end. In many cases, advantages continue to be given to children by the natural parent at the expense of the step-parent.
I'm sure that your counselor has been encouraging your wife to negotiate with you so that you can reach a joint agreements regarding her children, but to no avail. And I've experienced the same thing. In spite of a blended family couple's willingness to follow the POJA when I talk to them, when it comes to a decision that will affect the welfare of their children, the commitment is broken.
The advice you have been receiving on the Forum focuses attention on your affair. I've written quite a bit on that topic, and many of the responders have read it. In general, I warn people to avoid an affair because if the very same problems you are facing. And if a vast amount of research and my own professional experience can be trusted, it happens to 99% of those who try to make an affair last.
While it's very unlikely that you will follow my advice because you're in love with "Jane," leaving this relationship, and restoring your relationship with your first wife is the wisest choice. But if you want to know how you can be the 1% that thrives in spite of the obsticles you face, my advice is that you both learn to follow the POJA with every decision you make, including those with the children. If those decisions are made with mutual care, you may be able to figure out how to make the rest of your relationship work.
Best wishes
Willard F. Harley, Jr.
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"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Mrs. W, I am honestly confused. How do these people stop being adulterers. Divorce? Then the affairage kids live with one parent or the other? And this parent is no longer an adulterer because they are no longer sleeping with their affair partner?
So I hear you to say that the OP and his wife need to say to their children "we were wrong to commit adultery, and we were wrong to get married, and we were wrong to allow you to live with us while we were together, so we are getting divorced."
Yes, maybe that will set an example for the kids about right and wrong. Or maybe it will confuse the heck out of the kids, who will feel that they do not deserve to live if they are the product of something so horrible that their parents have to divorce over it. I fear we may be allowing the perfect to be the enemy of the good here.
In the end, I agree we better leave this to the Harleys because I am in waaaaay over my head thinking about this.
When you can see it coming, duck!
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Yes, I am a Christian, and I agree with you about unrepentant sinners, adulterers included.
I think most anyone who choose to post to him may even start with leading him to information on all the effects of affairs, and the problems of affairages, I new term I learned today.
I also agree he sounds cavalier about the affair, although before I concluded that, I would ask him.
I don't think it would be appropriate to shoot sunshine up any orifice.
But who better than MB could show him how his choices are now manifesting themselves in some severe consequences?
He shouldn't have done what he did, but it can't realistically be undone. There are two kids. They can't be unborn. I don't think that is throwing up our hands and encouraging him to stay on the wrong path. My opinion that the best thing we could do is meet him where he is and at least try to direct him to resources that could turn his life around.
We may agree as Christians, that this is not a marriage by Christian standards.
We may disagree about how to deal with this situation now. Thank you for clarifying your position. I do understand it better.
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DeppJones,
Wow, you picked an obviously explosive subject to post about.
EDIT
To the OP, how long have you two been married now? Curious, has your DW's ex remarried also? In any case, you certainly have your work cut out for you. The odds of 2nd marriages succeeding are low, because of the additional challenges/stresses brought on by blended families.
Affairs produce a unique situation where the wayward spouse (WS)is literally in love with two people, because those two people are each meeting a subset of the WS's EN's. The secrecy of the affair provides heightened emotional experiences, the "rush" that you referred to as the most romantic relationship experience either of you had ever experienced was due to this veil of secrecy. Now the veil has lifted.
As much as many here may object to my attempting to help you forge a path forward, I am willing to try if you are willing to take this seriously. I will stand in the gap, because this is one of the core values that I espouse and live by and I will not violate my own integrity even in the face of the wrath of those who may disagree vehemently.
Now that you two are married and attempting to build a life together, and the veil of the affair has fully lifted, you are finding out just how difficult blended families are. Now you have to meet ALL of your DW's EN's, not just the EN's that fed the affair. That is a very different reality. Is your DW open to the MB concepts? Do you feel safe approaching her about attempting to work on the relationship? She may not have any interest especially in the beginning since she is in withdrawal, as are you in reality.
Since you are here and she is not, you are going to have to be the one to step out into the abyss and take some big chances. You're going to have to learn what your DW's primary EN's are, suspend ALL LB's for good, in order to have any chance of creating a safe enough environment for her (and you for that matter) to come out of a state of withdrawal and into a state of conflict and eventually into a state of intimacy. I'm not going to lie to you Depp, this is probably going to be the most difficult work you've ever attempted to undertake, as your family circumstances are less than ideal and you are both starting out with love bank balances in the red. The fact that you aren't inherently an empath isn't going to help either, take it from me, a professed narcissist that also struggles with empathy/sympathy.
Speculatively, there's also a possibility your DW is experiencing some guilt over her past decisions with respect to the affair, the destruction of her original family, and her selfishness during all of what went on. This is not uncommon. The fact that she complains that you are never there for her, well, means you've got a heckuva mountain to climb as she probably feels alone on top of the guilt associated with past decisions. Again, just speculative, but this underlies my point that you are going to have to bring your A game to this effort, and even if you do, there are no promises. Can you realistically do that? If so, we've got something to start with.
Last edited by MBsurvivor; 02/16/11 06:24 PM. Reason: TOS lecturing other posters
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All I want to do is learn to think like God thinks. , I want to know Gods thoughts; all the rest are just details. , When the solution is simple, God is answering. - Albert Einstein
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