Hi all,

Thanks very much for all the comments on my previous thread. All were helpful and taken into consideration, including those that said our marriage was too short to save and to get out.

To recap if you haven't seen my original thread (http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2477130#Post2477130), I discovered WW's affair last weekend and had spent the week staying with a friend. I've talked a lot to several friends during that time, ordered SAA and been for an initial couples counselling session with WW.

I spoke to her a lot too. She said all the right things and I believe I now have full disclosure - I made it clear that I find out anything was withheld or untrue later on then I'm gone. I believe she is genuinely sorry and is seeking the personal help she needs to boost her self respect and sense of worth.

A message of NC has been sent to the OM from WW as well as an e-mail from me telling them to stay away and WW is actively seeking a new job - she passed her driving test this week which has opened up her options a lot.

So last night I moved back home and told her I'm going to give her the chance she wants to rebuild. We both know it's going to be very hard for a very long time and we're going to continue CC and working through Dr Harley's tips.

With all this in mind I'd like to hear from some members any advice they may have for the healing process and things to look out for. It's way too early to know if this can be fixed (not sure when you can consider yourselves to be officially 'in recovery,') so anything you have to say would be welcome.

I'd prefer not to hear people telling me I've made the wrong decision and that I should leave though; I've made the choice based on a considerable amount of reasoning and consideration and I'm confident that for not at least, it's the right one. I'm not stupid and I will be taking every precaution to ensure this never happens again and if it does I know straight away.

Thanks again for all your words during the week, they've helped me through the hardest time of my whole life - it's a shame it's only just the beginning of a lot of pain but I'm hopeful that with all the support we can come out the other side.

Cheers.

I will give you advice on behalf of my DH...who I betrayed in 2006. Keep your eyes wide open, look for actions and not just words, give yourself time, and keep the boundaries firm. When something doesn't sit right, say so. Set your expectations high.

Yes, stay alert, keep your eyes open and continue to look for signs of betrayal. Ideally, work with the Harleys, or at least get their books and workbooks. DO THE QUESTIONNAIRES and follow the plan.

Continue to post here. This is not over. It's only going into a new inning.

BH(did you choose a psuedonym with those initials purposely?), it's tough from out here to tell you what your path to recovery will be, because the problems/issues we each face during the process vary.

But I think a consensus would be that your futures will include:

• Triggers - yours and hers - from otherwise meaningless everyday events, locales, other persons
• Unexplained psychological/intellectual changes - again to both of you. Mine manifested itself in marginally controllable anger at seemingly innocuous things. Hers is an ongoing hole in a normal woman's veneer of self-esteem.
• Hysterical Bonding - called HB. A period of time where you won't be able to satisfy your highly elevated joint needs for SF. Man up, HB, you can endure it!

When something arises that puzzles you, come here, ask the question.

But meanwhile, remember the name and purpose of this marvelous site. If your decision is to fight through this betrayal, no one here should tell you otherwise. (If they do, they'll have to answer to ML, and THAT's not pretty!)

Thanks for your replies. I'm going to make sure I stay alert, I have passwords to e-mail & facebook accounts and she is aware that I will be checking her phone. In the interests of O&H she knows my passwords too, so she won't feel like I'm spying on her without her having the same kind of access to me.

SAA arrived yesterday and we worked through the ENQ. There were a few positive things to come out of that; I hadn't realised how strong WW's need for admiration was, so I have some things to work on going forwards. We're going to set aside an hour a day to work through the book and talk openly about how we're feeling.

She is still my best friend and I love her very much, and when we're together and not thinking or talking about what happened I'm still happy. So far she is putting into practise everything she has said she will do and is doing a good job of filling my LB and should that start to slip I know we can talk about it.

NG, the first two were things I had expected but hadn't considered HB. There's been a hint of that (twice in one day two days running hasn't happened for a long time,) but I'm sure I'll manage! (BTW, this is a username I've had for a while on various forums, I hadn't even considered the initials!)

We've agreed that we're going to make a point of doing something we enjoy together every time we work through SAA so we're not just focussing on the negative - even if it's just cuddling in front of the TV or going out for dinner.

I got stressed out at work earlier and had a cry, but my employers knows I'm having trouble at home and have eased my workload for a while. I started taking anti-depressents at the beginning of the year and they're working well now - I would have been a complete mess otherwise.

Thanks for all the help, I'll be sure to keep posting here.

BH

Just please know that recovery cannot start until there is NC, and there cannot be NC while the affairees work together.

Your wife is actively seeking a new job, which is excellent news. I hope she manages to change jobs quickly. In the meantime, though, she can run into OM (are both of them from work?) at any time, and if they were meeting, whether on purpose or accidentally, it would be easy for your wife to hide this contact from you.

Also, her wondering whether she might bump into OM, or actually doing so, and your wondering whether this is happening, will keep you and your wife perpetually triggered and unable to put the affairs behind you. That is not a condition under which recovery can start.

I wish you the best in your recovery, when it truly starts. I am posting this advice as someone who suffered through about 6 D days faciliated by workplace contact. It took about 2 years, AND a change of job, AND exposure to the BH, for my H's workplace affair to die.

BTW, the advice was not that your marriage was "too short to save". It isn't fair for you to misrepresent the help and advice you were given, which was to consider leaving a short marriage with no children. Your wife had two affairs in the first few months of marriage. The advice to consider leaving, instead of undergoing the hard work of recovery (which takes years), was kind advice from those who know how hard recovery is.

Hi SC,

Thanks for your comments. I'm aware that recovery cannot start until WW finds new work. We've discussed how potential for contact can be kept to the absolute minimum and I've asked another co-worker that I feel I can trust to help WW avoid any contact and to let me know if she suspects there might be. Even if there was NC, it would always play on my mind that there might be.

I know that when WWleaves that job a line can be drawn and until that happens it will be impossible to begin recovery properly. Until then (which I am hopeful will not be long at all,) we're working on filling eachothers' lovebanks to minimise any possible temptations.

Apologies if it was felt that I was misrepresenting the advice given - it was truly appreciated and without it I would have not been able to make an informed decision based on how difficult recovery will be. Considering the comments helped me decide that what we had *is* worth fighting for, and for that I'm grateful they were made

We've gone through the LoveBusters questionnaire tonight which was difficult - I guess it's natural for the WS to have more than the BS, after all they're the one that strayed - but there were a lot of constructive comments made to help us both improve how we behave to eachother. Nothing major and nothing that can't be easily fixed.

On that subject, does anyone know if there's a questionairre that does the opposite to the LoveBusters? While that's necessarily negatively focussed I'd like something we could go through that highlights the good things the other does and the things that make us happy, because there are a lot of them and it's easy to end up taking them for granted. Same end result and the LBQ, but a more positive angle

Hi - I am sorry you are going through this.

I disagree that the WS has more LBs than the BS, since they strayed.

They strayed because they have bad boundaries, and they decided they were entitled to do what they did.

You may not have been meeting all the ENs; I doubt you were getting your ENs met either. The difference is that you did not decide you had permission to lie and cheat to get your ENs met.

I am sorry if I sound harsh about this, but I am harsh about it! Issues in the marriage are no excuse. None. Not a bit.

Best wishes as you recover!

The emotional needs questionnaire, silly. It's in the "questionnaire" section on the site.

I'm going to give you a sunshine and roses tinged thought; considering that you are 11 months into a marriage - and that the first few years of marriage for most are all about getting used to each other - I believe the two of you can come out of this better than fine, better than any marriage that either of you has witnessed.

That will take the both of you taking the advice given in this program word-for-word, no more youthful, naive misconceptions.

Infidelity and recovery is ALWAYS hard, ALWAYS painful, but I think due to the "new" nature of your marriage, that you two will have an EXCELLENT chance for full recovery.

DAS, you are right, there are no excuses and WW knows that's what I believe.

HHH, we've done the ENQ too, I agree that it was more positive, but the focus was still on how the needs are not being met than how they are. I just wondered if there was something that highlights all the good in your relationship and the things that do make you happy - although maybe that is what the ENQ does next time we go through it and are feeling more positive ourselves!

Thanks for the rest of your words, it's something that I've been hoping myself too. It's an awful situation, but if any good can come from it it's that we now have a much greater incentive to get the rest of our marriage exactly right without accepting anything that will make us unhappy.

Hi all,

A few days on and still very much up and down. WW is doing everything I need; when I'm down she's listening to what I have to say, not losing patience and is showing her willingness to do what it takes. When I'm up everything is good, we're getting on as well as ever and the HB continues.

We're working our way through SAA, read the first 5 or 6 chapters toegther and have discussed what we've read both in the book and on this message board. She's applied for a few jobs which we're waiting to hear back about and is letting me know when the OM are in the office so I can ask if anything's been said - so far there has been no contact.

One thing I would like some advice on is how to deal with some of the anger and frustration. If I think about what happened then I get angry or upset and I can deal with that, what's getting to me now is that every time I'm upset or angry about anything at all, even things completely unrelated, the A comes into my head and makes me 10 times worse.

When that happens and WW is there she's doing the right thing, comforting me if I need it and leaving me alone when I don't, then when I've calmed down she asks if there's anything I want to tell or ask her that had got me upset or angry in the first place.

I'm conscious that I want to avoid too many AOs as that's one of her biggest LBs and I don't think it helps me feel any better so the approach above seems to be the best option, I'm just wondering if anyone has any tips for helping to prevent that from happening in the first place?

A good example is from the weekend when we were driving, I was OK but then got stuck in traffic and took a wrong turn and got frustrated - I instantly started thinking about the A which made me even more angry, even though it had nothing to do with the traffic. Has anyone else experienced a similar thing and did you find any techniques to help?

I instantly started thinking about the A which made me even more angry, even though it had nothing to do with the traffic. Has anyone else experienced a similar thing... Yes, and I think you'll find the answer is EVERYBODY experienced a similar thing!

It got so bad, so quickly, for me that I almost rammed a shopping cart into some lady taking up the whole aisle in the "Pasta" section a week after d-night. And my mouth! Every other sentence for a while was laced with foul language! ***Edit***

...and did you find any techniques to help?
Eventually I was able to recognize the linkage between my underlying rage and my immediate reactions to frustrating, or annoying, stimulii. I developed the ability to "self-counsel" when some other driver failed to signal a turn, or did some other inane maneuver, telling myself that he was just a moronic , inexpert driver, had been long before my marital problems, and would be long after I recovered. His actions were not related to my situation, and shouldn't be the target of the somewhat suppressed rage I was experiencing.

Now, if OM had been in that Pasta" section......."Ramming Speed!"

Hello all. Been lurking and reading for the last few weeks and thought I'd give an update.

I've been back at home for a month now and it's been up and down. We've been going through SAA and have been putting things like POJA into action and having regular counselling, and when it's going well our relationship is as good as it's ever been.

But there are a couple of things I'm struggling with. Firstly is how I can start to accept what's happened and begin to move on. Every time I think about it I end up going in circles and getting angry about the same things. At what point does this become dwelling on the problem? I cant change what has happened but if I can't get past it how can I ever heal?

The next thing is knowing how to help WW. Since D-Day and exposure she's lost a lot of friends and is having a hard time at work, and she's putting a lot of effort into making things better for us and meeting my EMs - more effort than I am a lot of the time. I don't want to shield her from the consequences of her actions but again, if we're to move past this we both need to be happy and I need to be able to meet her EMs as well. I'm worried that if I continue to get angry and upset while she's trying so hard to make it right I'm going to end up pushing her away.

Any advice would be welcome.

You are less than 2 full months from d day. It will take awhile. Just keep calm and use MB for support.

berkeley,
i dont know what the answer is it happens to me as well and im further along than you.
my therapist says just trust until, you have to put it in the past, you can't get a different answer no matter how many times we ask the same questions, my therapist says you just cant make sense of someone else's decisions.
if you want it to work so you are happy you have to know you are making the decision to stay in your marriage for YOU. anything for you deserves your best effort.
hang in there its still early for you............
jessi

BH, I am on my IPod so I'll make this short (one finger typing is not for me.) It sounds like you're moving in the right directions, but really, until your wife leaves that job, your recovery attempts will be at a snail's pace. I'm not going to beat you up for that, I just know that over the years, I can't think of one situation where recovery was successful if the A partners still worked together. It's maddening to know that POSOM is within easy contact. Hopefully your wife will find another job soon.

Anyway, you guys are very early into this and it's going to take a long time to recover, even after your wife leaves that job. Focus on the now. Choose each day to do whatever it takes to follow Dr. H's very specific plan for recovery. Never bring up the A in anger. If you get triggered, maybe work out a signal that that's what's happening. Avoid LBing each other. If a question comes up about the affair, plan to talk it out in a quiet time with a certain deadline for finishing the conversation. Make it safe for her and she needs to make it safe for you too.

So much for a short post, lol. But remember, your priority should be her job change. Recovery will be much easier then. While she's there, your chances are very very slim and probably impossible.

We have gone over and over the advice that your wife needs to leave that job. You will not be able to begin recovery until she does so.

BH,

You asked

Ok, let me start with my standard statement about anger. It is a secondary emotion driven be primary ones such as: fear, pain, anxiety, etc. Identify what is driving your anger and you will find it easier to deal with it.

Next thought is that you are only two months out and as others have said your W still works where the affair happened. Whether or not you realize it this is still a trigger. I suspect you know deep inside, that she is not safe, your marriage is not safe, and you are not safe IF she is still exposed to the situation that led to the affair. Hence you are still dealing with that.

But, I think there is more. You will, as most BS' do, struggle with the issue of if you decision was the correct one or not. Are you "wimping out" by accepting her back? Are you being a man YOU can respect by taking her back? Are you being foolish and hoodwinked again by taking her back as you were during her affair? Will you know if it happens again, or will she fool you again? Are you really the man that can make her happy and want to be with for the rest of her life?

Are you seeing a trend in these questions? There is clearly is one, and it has to do with your self-confidence AND your confidence in her. To the later point, can she be what she says she wants to be: in love with you, faithful to you, and married to you? Can she control whatever urges she has? Can she be honest?

The answers to all of these questions come with time and it takes a lot of patience. Patience with yourself and patience with her. Give this time and have patience. OK?

Finally, you two were not married long, so there is little data for you to draw upon with regards to times where the marriage worked well. You two don't have a clue what a good working marriage means to either of you. Consider this the start for both of you to develop what a good working marriage feels like, and acts like.

I put this last quote in here to reiterate some of the previous points. You are correct in your worry, but helping someone does not mean they avoid the consequences of their actions.

Yes, you two need to meet each others EN's. But, given the short marriage I think you need to do more, and one of the MORE's is to sit down together and really discuss what each of you thinks would be a great marriage. Not in any accusatory way but in a "envision if you will" way. What is it you see as a great marriage? What is it she sees as a great marriage? Can you two develop a plan to creat this marriage. Here you two really need to read and heed Harley's two main policies: the policy of radical honesty and the policy of joint agreement. They will help you a great deal in addressing this issue.

One thing you can do to help your W is to accept her gifts with gratefulness and grace. Gifts? I mean the things she does for you, the things she is doing to try and make things better. It is easy to focus on the negative and surly your mind is going to want to protect you so it is hypervigilant with regard to things she does poorly or not at all. But also see and acknowledge the good things and let her know that you see them.

This is a process BH and actually you two seem to be doing well.

God Bless,

JL

BH,

My marriage is one tht survived affairs in the early days. I had a ONS, then my DH had a ONS, all before we were married even a year.

It IS possible to survive this affair, and it IS possible to recapture your feelings for your wife, and to get past the anger and devastation you are feeling.

My DH and I were both stupid for having affairs. We were just plain stupid. Having said that, we did do some things right in the recovery phase of our marriage.

We realized that a marriage is more than "being in love" and it took a heck of a lot of work. We understood that we lost the focus on one another, and that it would take some time to figure out what went wrong and why, and then to work on those things.

We did not do our recovery well, however, because just a few years later, my husband left me for another other woman. At the time, he was not physically involved with her, it was an EA, and I had no idea she existed. We had, yet again, lost the focus on one another. We took things for granted, and let it all nearly slip away from us.

What we did wrong? We failed to talk about the affairs completely, and we failed to really be honest with each other about our needs. We took the advice that we needed to "get over it" and "move on", and so we agreed to do that. Neither of us wanted to talk about our shameful behavior, both of us knew we still loved the other, and we wanted this affair business to be over.

Only it didn't get over, did it? Because here was my H, leaving me.......

And when his affair fizzled out before it got started, he was back again....and then within days had a ONS.

We didn't do that right, either. We did agree to start completely over, yet again. We were sure two very stupid people, but clinging together for dear life. Because we loved each other.

The episode of his leaving me, coming back and his second ONS were about 3-4 years into our marriage. Sounds great, huh?

We had a child then, and we really worked to get the pieces put back together. This time around, my DH was very apologetic, very aware of how to meet my needs, and I was basically wanting to get past the whole thing. And we did...

Until our 30th year together. And we lost it all again, because my husband had another affair.

We are now putting the pieces back together the RIGHT way. We have talked about our marriage, we have talked about the affair, we have talked about our history together - and we have figured out what we KEPT DOING WRONG.

Don't do that to yourself. You are on the right track, right now, using the MB concepts for your marriage. I wish I had known then what I know now, because we COULD have spared each other this pain.

You and your WW having discussions, openly, about what happened is important. Whatever you do, I want you to remember that if you sweep it under the rug, in your attempt to just stop the pain, you will make the biggest mistake in your life. I can say this, because I did it too many times. Don't do what I did those first few affairs - don't shut up when you feel hurt, don't fail to ask the questions over and over if you have to, don't try to cover your own pain so that your WW can feel better.

And use the MB concepts - because these ideas are very solid for building any marriage, but especially for recovering one that is teetering because of an affair.


My H and I are now five and half years out from the most recent d-day and affair. Our marriage is more open and honest than ever before. We understand where we are weak and where we can improve = and we have the program to address the issues. I could never have said that before......

There are still days when I hurt, yes. We address them as they come up, and believe me, they are fewer and fewer all the time.


So yes, you can fix this. Be open to your pain, be open to her remorse, be open to changing yourself.

It is in changing yourself that your marriage will see the most improvement. Watch and see if I'm not right about this.


One more thing. If you two get a chance, read the book called "Leadership and Self-Deception" by the Arbinger Institute. It is a life-changer, because it helps you more completely understand what role you play in making things right, or wrong, in your relationships. It's a great book that does mesh extremely well with the MB program and concepts, and takes you into your own mind.

SB