Thats right, Tawandabelle!!!

Interesting observations..

In general, and I am an old codger, but just in the last ten to twelve years it seems that younger women are just feeling much more empowered and independent. Not a scientific observation but just a general feeling based on the women I know and deal with in my work, and elsewhere, and even my W. They are more educated, insist on continuing education whether career-wise or in general thru the internet or talk shows or circles of friends, are more finance conscious - i.e a survey I saw not too long ago showed a dramatic shift in women handling family finances rather than their husbands, and are just more independent that just a few years ago. They are also delaying marriage more today than ever before. I just think in general that this gives them a more "what have you done for me lately" or a "i want what i want now" attitude than even a decade ago. My W commented on this and stated that this puts alot more stress on men today than ever before.

So, I am not sure that women today are prone to affairs more than yesterday, but it just seems so. And, I feel when they do reach that point they have pretty much written off their H's.

I think that by the time the BH ends up here he is pretty much at wits end because some of the tactics, regardless of human nature, that worked yesterday do not work as well today. Point in case, I would not be surprised to see more of an emphasis on Plan B in the future over a Plan A. I believe the financial unrest that has occured over the last ten years - early 2000's and the last couple of years - has caused women to want to be much more self-reliant and self-directed than they have been. It is not so much today that the fear is their husbands leaving them, or them having a debilitation heart attack, or something similar, it is fear of having their econimic and emotional future so tied to their H's. They want to direct their own lives, and they expect their H's to keep up. Unfortunately that seems to have a negative effect on a M once the W is at the point of emotional disengagement. It is like the concept of 'free-agency' in professional football - you were useful once, but you are not now.

Just my view...

Tom

By the way..

When I state 'younger women' I really do mean women all the way up to retirement age - let's say age 65!

Tom

Thankee, Tom!!

Can I get an AMEN to this?!

Interesting topic,

Just a few thoughts. Having been here a long time, things tend to cycle, however, I do feel that MB's reputation and its orderliness do appeal to men. It appealed to me.

I will dispute Mel's claim that exposure was not mentioned in the 'good old days', it was. Perhaps not with the vehemence of today, but it was a focus for sure.

I do think one thing has changed and it has been alluded to and that is the role of the women's movement. It has made women more confident, a good thing, it seems to have focused on the idea that men are the enemy, a bad thing. Interestingly the divorce laws have only changed with regard to no fault, but that still leaves men losing much more in most divorces. Not only do they loss have of the value of the marriage, but they often loss significant contact with the children, hence they have more to lose than women. I think it makes them more gun shy about some of the strategies that work in MB. Women WILL get the children, at the very least they will get 50/50, men have to fight for 50/50 and in many states it isn't even close, but child support will fall to them big time.

Hence I think many of the BH's that come here are fighting two battles the battle to deal with the WW and the battle not to lose their children to "every other weekend and wed." Plus we are taught as guys we should not really be agressive with women, it is abuse after all.

Just thoughts.

JL

PS: I find it amusing, in a sort of depressing way, that as women have gotten their "freedom" from the "oppression" of men, that they act just like men at their worst, and have assumed their worst traits, cougars being one of them. I am not talking about an age, I am talking about causual sex and no worries about the results.

Come on people, I have been trying for weeks to not make stupid jokes about Mel, so she will keep giving me advice and now you start a thread talking about how shes a cougar!?

There is a Canadian website, which I will not name and have never been to, that sets up married people in affairs. Specifically so called dating for people who don't have time to find there own affair - awful I know. There was a news story here a while back about this site, and the owner (may be rot in hell) was saying the number of women looking for an affair has exploded in the last year. It also said he was expanding to europe, not sure if hes in the US yet.

Just food for thought.

I opened the door for my lady all the time then that slacked off once the ring was on the finger.... Now I do it again!

One of the first things I read when I arrived was a post by NSR telling a newly betrayed husband not to expose because it was "lovebuster." K used to routinely dismiss exposure by telling people that Steve Harley never told him to expose.[he claimed to be the "voice of Marriage Builders" and once told BobPure that if he was going to expose his WW's affair, he should first POJA it with her] So, there might have been the rare lone voice suggesting exposure, but he was usually drowned out by a "wise," "seasoned," "sage" "veteran" telling him it was a lovebuster. I was certainly under the impression for years that it was not the thing to do because it was highly discouraged around here.

It was a hot topic of dispute until about 2007 when some of us called Dr Harley on his radio show, and even then, several of the "wise," "seasoned," "sages" and "old timers" still dismissed it because it wasn't written about in any of Harley's books or articles.


Hey, don't be knocking us cougars!! I do agree that alot of bad came from the woman's movement. It left many with an attitude of entitlement along with a deep abiding disrespect for men. I left women with a belief that they are weak and oppressed and had to be "liberated".

My silly husband is 13 months younger than me and he tells people, "you know she's a cougar, don't you??"

I think this is about the funniest thing I've heard in awhile! BWAAAHHHAAAHAAAA!

POJA exposure with your wayward???? Bwaaahaaahaaa!!!

What did you think about my other comment? I personally hope this guy gets a private room in hell. What a business model.

PM..

Yes and no. I lived thru the initial womens' movement (well the modern movement, because it really began in the early 20th Century with voting rights) in the 1970's and the early 1980's with my wife - the era of labelling men as 'male chauvenist (sp) pigs', Helen Reddy's "I am Woman", the 'Mary Tyler Moore Show' (independent younger single career woman), and all of that ...*s*. I think that most women were somewhat interested and amused by it but sort of tiptoed around all that in terms of M and their husbands. The issues then were more like H's assisting in domestic responsibility, parenting, and just simply emotional support for their concerns - i.e., respecting them by simply listening to their gripes and concerns (conversation). Yea, was used to being called a chauvenist by Char for various reasons, but it was more chiding and kidding on her part than serious or vindictive.

Then the late 1980's and the 1990's when gender job discrimination, sexual harassment, and domestic violence issures came to the forefront. Much more serious and much more important to women and much more unifying. These concerns on the part of women led to several new laws, which govern us now. Basically women just simply used their ballot power to challenge the male-dominated industries, Congress, and courts, and got the laws to protect their rights and concerns. Gender aside, I think that most people would agree that these developments were needed and long overdue! It just means that we men blew it in 1920 by allowing the 19th Amendment....*s*.

My feeling up to this point is that I really don't feel that the 'womens' movement' as such is really to blame. All these things have done is to help women feel more empowered and equal, which should be a good thing. I feel the real issue is that women today, as a result of feeling they are equal, protected, and empowered, just simply demand a much more intense, equal, honest, and rewarding relationship with their H's. They want to see their spouses go the extra mile for them. Simply put, I think women just have higher expectations of their men! And, that is also a good thing. I also think that many men today don't attempt to meet those expectations, or don't even know they exist! (As Char has reminded me many times, men (me) can be so unobservant!). Meeting your W's expectations can be such a simple little thing that impresses her. It can be simply getting up way early on a Friday morning, sneaking out, (as I have done), going to a McDonalds and bringing back her favorite sausage and egg sandwich and juice for an early unexpected breakfast. It can be listening to her intently when she talks about some opinion on 'The View', even if you don't like that program, or it can coming home from work with your @@s dragging, picking smiling at your son and/or daughter, lifting your W up to you and telling them all "my @@s is dragging but I want to take you all out for dinner". Well, all of you I am sure can think of your own examples!

The important point is that once an H is forced to go to that Plan A and do these things, when a W is involved with another, the impact of meeting her expectations is almost null and void.

Tom

yuck!

Like a factory for waywards.

-Every once in a blue moon a "gentleman" will offer his seat to a lady. Whatever happen to chivalry or even just plain old good manners?-

Your problem is PM there are not that many blue moons in any given year! Last one I saw was back in July of 2009 and it was only visible from the Northern Hemisphere. Also, it is a documented fact that chivalry ended with the death of Erol Flynn.

Tom

Hey PM,

Just felt I needed to add my reply to you was just meant lightly as my silly attempt to help you laugh some. That is all.

Tom

Could be more cropping up, but doesn't point to more instances, just more awareness.

Also be aware that if you look for something, you will often find it.

I recently bought a 1990 Geo Prizm - which I found is pretty much the same as a Toyota Corolla of the same year.

Since I bought it, I notice them EVERYWHERE. It's a 20 year old car. Been there all the time, it's just now I'm looking, now I notice.

This past month has had a good crop of men pop up, but there is always a constant flow of BW's.

No trouble from me, I agree with you 100%.

Strong men are strong. We're mean if we need to be and we know those times and places when it's necessary (taking violent action against a burglar in the house would be an example).

Submissive women are aren't attractive for me i.e. those who will do whatever it takes to make others happy even if it makes themselves miserable. To volunteer to live your life that way when you don't have to is not noble, it's grotesque. Women with loving, nurturing qualities (amongst others including strength and sense of humour) are irresistable.

I'm not celebrating nor am I commiserating.

Please excuse me while I throw up.

Tom,

Interesting comment But, the difference is they don't go the extra mile for their men. Divorce rates are not going down and one cannot lay all of the blame on men for this. And the site just mentioned is now booming with women wanting to have affairs.

In my mind what we are seeing is power without balance as many laws are changed to protect women, but few to protect men. Hence we see men far less willing to take on their wives when they cheat because they know they are at a huge disadvantage.

Not a good thing.

Mel, just a reminder, Steve H has never been as big an advocate for exposure as Dr. Harley, and in K's case it was Steve H he was counseling with. NSR was not the only "vet" in those days by the way. Since it was Feb. 1999 when I found this site I do have some recall. I will also say that many folks were told that exposure was part of plan A and Dr. Harley has stiffened his position on exposure as well, although he did susggest taking out newspaper ads if necessary. Always like that idea.

Nevertheless, Mel you are right there do seem to be more male BS's unwilling to heed any advice, but there were always those here just not in the numbers. Perhaps it is because MB is far more popular now. I have not noticed but I don't think they show the posters membership number as they used to. But, I am sure it is well over 40,000 perhaps 50,000 and I was only in 4 digits. Huge growth, more folks harder to address everything.

Must go.

JL