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Warning- this is long.

Below I've cut-and-pasted some comments on Holdingontoit's thread that I think are relevant for people who are either in my position or who have a spouse with extremely low libido:


Originally Posted By: Telly
Hi Hold.

So I read your "either/or" statement. And, of course, I certainly am of the opinion that your wife's history of sexual abuse affects your sexual relationship today...

I often think in the same way of my husband's disinterest... Either he's simply not attracted to the real-life me (and only was in the early months when it was new), or he doesn't really love me, or living with a violent brother made his guard so thick that it's hard to be vulnerable with sex.

HOWEVER...

It is possible that none of our conclusions are correct... And then what do we do? What if our spouses are simply not really interested in sex? What if it actually has NOTHING TO DO WITH US?! What if it's nothing that can ever be fixed?! What if they really and truly do love us, and are as healthy as they can be--only they do not really care to have sex?

I think that is a far scarier reality to live with. I mean, if it's because of how I look, or something that I'm doing, at least there is a chance that one day, our sex life will improve. If there's something wrong with him, well, there is also a chance that one day he will find peace/healing and be more free to explore a positive sex life.

But if he is simply not interested. I mean, if this is all he's got, and I have no carrot big enough to dangle to interest him in engaging in SF... then what do we do?

That's more painful than whether or not she is rejecting you. SHe is NOT rejecting you, Hold. She knows you want sex, but she simply cannot compute how deeply her disinterest hurts you. She can't relate, because she does not think that way, feel that way, and even if you can communicate in a way so that she DOES understand, she will probably never change.

She could love you fiercely, and never have any more interest in sex than she does now. SHe could love you more than she has ever loved anyone in her life, and it simply never stimulate her sexually. Ever. And that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with you.

When we first got married, my husband was excited about sex. For about 3 months. Then I saw the decline--and I soon realized how he was able to stay celibate for so long. He simply doesn't feel desire with anything near the frequency that I do. I mean it can be months and months and months (we are, after all, averaging 1 time of intercourse every 2 1/2 years) before he is aroused. And he has no interest in arousing me in any way other than sex, and only when he is interested which, as I said is seldom.

I have spent years thinking that it was me. That I had done something to kill his interest in this area. Or there was some way he was wounded that inhibits him.

I didn't. There isn't.

He just isn't interested.

How do we live with that? How do we make our lives full and complete and wonderful when we are living with someone who chooses not to engage us sexually? I have a vivid and active imagination. I have so many ideas for things that would be fun and interesting... But even without doing anything extra, I am just happy to touch and be touched, and have it culminate in SF!

I do love my husband. But sometimes I hate him. And sometimes I deeply resent that I am in this kind of marriage--one where an important EN and aspect of our relationship is never going to be fulfilled. One that I was so looking forward to for so long.

However, you and I have a choice, my friend. And it isn't about pulling yourself up by your bootstraps. It's getting to the point where our life is full enough and happy enough so that we can live well without SF--at least until you (we?) have ended our marriages.

Does this make sense? I think I'm rambling. ANd daughter's bus will be here in a few minutes.


Originally Posted By: Bubbles4U
I would like to weigh in here. I had the low libido husband. He insisted it was "just the way he was" and had nothing to do with me.

1. It took me three years to believe him
2. Another few years to work the problem out
3. We had to both LOVE each other enough to fight thru it.

I feel that if a person marries you and claims to love you, they will and should do everything, whatever is needed....to try and make you happy.

If that thing that you need,, (which most married people need and expect) is SEX, then whatever they believe about it or whatever they hate about it, they must find a way to meet YOUR sexual needs. If they love you they will pleasure you, learn to pleasure you, take care of you in the sex department, and set aside what they want or do not want.

In addition, I know that a grown man who wants or has very little sex MUST KNOW HE IS NOT THE NORM> He must know from teaching marriage classes, or how other men talk about sex....or from being in the WORLD, that HE IS ABNORMAL for wanting sex only once every few years. He has to know this. If he does not know how abnormal he is then he is crazy.

So, this man, who is outside the norm, also HAS TO KNOW THAT HIS WIFE HAS NORMAL MARITAL SEXUAL NEEDS. He has to know it and he HAS TO ACTIVELY IGNORE HER in order to justify his extreme sexual neglect.

Our solution was this. My husband asks to make love whenever he wants "it" (and since we talked about having differing desires) then, he told me to ask WHENEVER I want sex and he will honor my request and respect and love me by giving me the pleasure and physical closeness I want right when I ask or very soon after, like the same day I ask.

I have learned new ways of asking for sex that allow some flexibility:

1. Honey how bout some loving? Tonight or tomorrow morning (gives him a choice)
2. Lets go upstairs and cuddle (can lead to sex or the cuddling is nice too)
3. Want some sex tomorrow morning? (specific time is good sometimes)
4. Feel like some sex? (now)
5. Feel like some sex? (now but could agree to postpone it)
6. We get to bed and sometimes we choose what we want to do there.

There are so many ways to ask for sex, also some non verbal ways. Once you start getting regular sex again, you can relax the schedule and rules and allow flexibility. Getting used to asking for sex is half of it. Having a loving spouse is the main thing.

It is only fair if one partner wants a huge plate of food and the other partner only wants a tiny plate of food, that both get to eat whatever they want. If one wants to paint the room blue and the other one wants to paint it red, then a compromise is in order.

Yet, sex is not food, sex is way more important than who paints what.... a certain color....and it takes a LOVING spouse to help the other spouse have the sex they want. So, both spouses have to determine what is going on and work together to solve the problem.

1. Both spouses, the High libido and Low libido spouse, must sit down and figure out exactly what is happening or not happening in the sexual area.

2. Then, both must tell the other one thier needs.

3. Then, both must sit down and honor the other one's needs

4. Then, a schedule must be worked out or another solution derived in order to meet BOTH PEOPLE"S NEEDS.

5. If one partner is asexual, this can be dealt with but must be faced.

6. IF both people do not face this issue, it will never get better.

7. These steps HAVE TO BE CONTINUED until the PROBLEM IS SOLVED OR A WORKOUT IS COMPLETED.


Can you, will you, be brave and persisitant enough to face this issue head on? Or will you continue to back down and live with constant sexual neglect?



"If you will stop feeding your feelings, then they will stop controlling you" -Joyce Meyer
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Hello everyone... it's been awhile since I posted, but another thread really caught my emotion on this issue, and I just had to comment.

The main gist of the convo was when people say they were never in love with their spouse, it's typically what wayward spouses say as justification for their affair.

I commented as follows:

Quote:
Originally Posted By: stillhere8126
I am sorry but the usual quote from a wayward spouse is "I was never in love with BS" ILYBINILWY.....Please in order for poster to help you more please admit if you have had an affair


Originally Posted By: Tabby1
So tell us about your boyfriend. Because this:
Quote:
I'm not in love with him and not attracted to him. I

is code for "I'm cheating on him".


I've been away from the boards for awhile, catching up, and am a little late to this convo...

I just want to say two things:
1. The above is not always true. May be true in this case, but not always.
2. The above explains the reaction I got when I first came to this board (hundreds of posts lost when the board crashed).

I say this because I married for 12 years a man I was never attracted to after 3 years of quasi-dating but basically being best friends. I never felt sexual attraction for my ex. I have been divorced for over a year, and separated two years. Even being single there are extremely few men I am actually attracted to. Again, not saying this is the case with tbmc but just for posterity I want to note that, yes, there are indeed some people married to folks they are not attracted to. Some they stopped being attracted to (affair, got fat, not meeting needs, etc) and some they just never were. Some of us just aren't wired normally, I guess.

DTC


I'm glad to understand that now, because I got quite a lot of 2x4s when I first got here (all those posts were lost when the server crashed) and couldn't figure out why my story upset so many people. I'm not complaining, though, because I got a LOT of help, and I learned a lot about how I contributed to my marriages demise.


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So Love is sex in your book...to me it is so much more than just sexual attraction....


BW me-41
WH -39
DS - 9
married 12 Yrs together(?) 18 yrs when A discovered
DDay aug 2007
found MB dec 2007
Moved out april 2008
still seeing OW
Plan B

Okay I fixed the ages, it was looking screwy. smile
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No. I dont equate love with sex. I absolutely loved my ex (until he became a threat to me and our son). I just wasnt sexually attracted to him, and didnt realize how horribly that would affect him because (trying to be a good Christian wife) I offered myself to him (almost) every night (one thing Im glad I dont have to do anymore!). I just didnt get anything out of it for myself, but I knew it was something he liked. And I just didnt realize there is another dimension to the intimate relationship between a husband and wife.

An interesting turn in all this is that after reading the asexual website for awhile, I began to feel like many of the folks on the site were dealing with after-effects of serious childhood issues- abuse, molestation, etc. So I went back to counseling.

My counselor celebrated my progress: I had started back seeing the guy who gave me my first kiss in 15 years (see below excerpt for what happened). I really enjoyed his company. Even though hed always been a player, he was charming and respectful of my boundaries. We casually saw each other once a week for a few months.

On our last date, I felt so much sexual desire for him I almost couldnt contain it! We didnt do much, but I couldnt even concentrate at work for the next few days. I had never experienced anything like that in my life! I had a short notice military move out of state so I havent seen him for a couple months, though he does call/text/facebook me once a week.

No one here in my new home elicits that kind of reaction from me, but because of this experience I am confident that a respectful relationship built over time can generate those feelings. I guess I will just have to take things slow and find the right man.

Originally Posted By: DaisyTheCat2


Well, I took a business trip and ran into an old acquaintance (who happened to be one of those 7 guys).
....
He held me, and kissed me (first time I'd been kissed on the lips in 15 years), and he wanted more. But even though I'd felt attraction to him, and really enjoyed being held, there was no desire to "go there."

I've never felt more crazy in my life. Or disappointed. How can I have feelings for someone, and not want what the feelings are supposed to stand for? ... But I didn't want sex. All I wanted was to be held.

And I was not expecting that. Here is this gorgeous, fun, financially independent guy. Every bone in my body should have been fighting to resist him. But it wasn't.
...
I know I'm probably crazy and seriously need counseling.


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I am really glad to have found this thread. I posted a thread about intimacy on the surviving an affair thread but have had little response....probably because I am a FWW and not many people like to make responses to us. Maybe I can find some answers and support here.

I will try to be brief but feel you need an overview of my history. I am a FBS (my husband had an A with my best friend about 11 years ago). We moved past this and tried to rebuild the marriage (didn't use MB principals but our counselor was very close to MB principals. Then about 5 years ago I had a PA with someone I met thru work. We didn't actually work together on a daily basis. H found out, NC was established and we moved from the city and NC has not been broken. Obviously we tried to recover but I was unhappy. Since then I have had several EA with people over the internet. There has been no PA at all. H found out about these. Each time, I was remorseful and I myself could not really understand why I did it (other than poor boundaries). There has been NC with anyone and I have established to be sure I do not fall back into the pattern. It has been 7 months. My H and I are trying very hard to make our marriage work. We have been married 20 years. The problem we have is this......I am struggling with sex. I have never had a huge sex drive....it is my H #1 need. We have spent LOTS of time discussing this as being his need. I feel unworthy of even asking for my needs to be met. Its not that I deny him sex, but I'm sure he can tell that I'm not in to it. He has started saying that he would rather not if I am not going to be totally into it. I wish I could just flip a switch and make this better. I am struggling and really do need some advice. Please help!

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Hi Itsamess. I sure wish I had some advice for you. I never was into sex with my ex for the act itself, but for the enjoyment he got out of it and (yeah, this is selfish) for how much better he was to me when he got it regularly. If you don't have a drive, you don't have a drive.

Since you had a PA in the past, that gives me hope that your husband can generate the desire in you. But it must be extremely extremely hurtful for him to know this man aroused in ways he cannot. Even if he's contributing to the fact you aren't interested in sex with him.

Have you looked into what about these EAs was so appealing? How can your husband turn himself into a guy like those EA men, or is it based on too much fantasy for him to be able to do so?

I'm not a counselor though, so these are my novice thoughts...


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Originally Posted By: DaisyTheCat2
No one here in my new home elicits that kind of reaction from me, but because of this experience I am confident that a respectful relationship built over time can generate those feelings. I guess I will just have to take things slow and find the right man.


ok, you're not going to believe what happened...last month I went out with a guy who I was attracted to from the first moment he approached me and asked my number. Very strong attraction. We've gone out 6-7 times, and it's only my religious conviction that keeps me off of him!

This is really strange because just a week before I went out with him, when I was really missing the guy I went out for a couple months (who eventually generated those feelings within me) I was was actually considering trying to reconcile with my ex, who said he had made a lot of changes. If my exs changes hold, the only real issue would have been the attraction one. And I figured it was so rare I should stop trying to chase it, especially since I dont want to be alone for the rest of my life. But then my ex disappeared again, and this new guy showed up. I doubt it will last, but Im going to enjoy it while it does!!!


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So, what you are saying, is that in contrast to the entire rest of this thread, you are actually seeing the dart board now?

Think about this; how is it that this other guy "eventually generated those feelings within" you?

What is it about this new one that you are "attracted to from the first moment he approached" you?

What would happen if you could combine whatever it is about the new guy that has immediate attraction with the actions of the former fling who built the attraction over time?

Last edited by HoldHerHand; 03/01/11 12:14 PM.

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If I could combine the two guys that would be so awesome. That is, if the new combo-man actually liked me :-) Actually, the new guy is very much like the other guy, just in a different line of work, and a bit younger so not as financially secure as the other.

I don't know what it is about this guy. He caught my eye when my friends and I had gone out to dinner. I like a certain type of look- nice guy, teddy bear yet still very strong. He asked if I would take his number, and I said no because I would never call it.

Usually when I say this, the guys shrink away. Which is fine because they usually want sex and I already know I wont be able to satisfy them given my history. But he said well, well... will you give me your number so I can call you. and when he said that, it was all over. I was hooked. I wish I could explain it, but I cant. And I really wish something like this would have happened back in college, not NOW that Im a single mom with a lot of baggage ;-)

Being around him I feel very feminine. He is very tall, very broad, hands bigger than mine (my ex used to call them amazon hands b/c they're bigger than most mens hands!) and I feel very feminine when he holds me. I'm in great shape, awesome figure, but I'm very broad. Most people who only see me in pictures are shocked to see how broad I am in person. He can wrap his one arm all the way around my linebacker shoulders. And he can pick me up with ease. As if I was a size 0. He also does sweet little stuff for you, making sure things are right (like if the meal is wrong, asking the waitress fix it rather than tell me to just eat it and dont make a scene like my ex and other guys have). He also disarmed me emotionally because when I told him we needed to take things very slow physically, he said hed been single now for 2 years and waiting another year wasnt gonna hurt him. But its not even been a month, so this could all be a front hes putting up. And there are a few things I dont care for about him, but theyre not big deals (right now).

Even if its a front and if Im not seeing him next month :-) Im glad for this experience. I NEVER felt anything like this while in high school, college, or marriage. Even with the handful of guys I was attracted to, I never felt anything as strong as this. So now I feel a little bad that I told people I had felt attraction before, because this is totally different.


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I am of the Low Libido group myself. It's very difficult and I hate it. I wish I was more attracted and aroused by my H, he's a VERY attractive man and I really want him to feel like he's desirable and sexy to me. I love him more than anything in my entire world but for me, Brad Pitt could walk through a room and while, I would definitely stare, I wouldn't need to go change afterwards, if you know what I mean. Now, it might be my medications that are killing my attraction for my H, but what if it's not? I can watch steamy scenes in movies, I read romance novels with some great sex scenes, nothing triggers that funny feeling in my stomach that takes my breath away. I know what it feels like, I have felt it before but it's rare. I've tried to explain that it's not H, that he's incredibly attractive and I love him but it's difficult for him to understand. We're still working on SF since it is one of his EN but luckily for me it's not #1 or even #2, so I have a bit of leeway and flexibility.


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PHOEN1X, I SO understand where you are coming from!!! Attractive doesnt always equal arousal. And people dont get that. Ive been around some VERY handsome men, but nothing down there! Glad you and hubby are working on it.


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Originally Posted By: DaisyTheCat2
PHOEN1X, I SO understand where you are coming from!!! Attractive doesnt always equal arousal. And people dont get that. Ive been around some VERY handsome men, but nothing down there! Glad you and hubby are working on it.


It is an awesome feeling to be so attracted to a man. I married at 18 and didn't really realize how I didn't have it with my now X. The tricky part, that I stumbled on, once I was divorced, was not letting that attraction get in the way of good sense....attraction does NOT equal good relationship.

Your comment about 'down there' reminds me of what I tell my dh....that it is as if there is an invisible string connected between my mouth and 'down there' because when he is kissing me it is like WOW!

Combine that with him being on the same page as me regarding all the important issues in my life...yeah, a dream come true.

It happens DTC.

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Daisy, what your "down there" comment tells me, is that you should find a book, video, or performance of The Vagina Monologues by Eve Ensler.

I think if more women were honest about "down there," the would have less anxiety, better relationships, and - God forbid - better sex lives.

I didn't care for the feminist forwards in the book - but the monologues themselves are everything from heart-wrenching to liberating, to hold-your-belly hilarious.


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Originally Posted By: DaisyTheCat2
I doubt it will last, but Im going to enjoy it while it does!!!

Stop it, Daisy!

Stop it right now!

You are dealing yourself a bad hand off the top of the deck.

You don't have to do this, you know.


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I'll have to look those up, they sound interesting.

I have noticed that my "down there" plumbing works better in the morning. I think it's completely mental though. It's really nice to wake up to SF and it puts a great spin on my day. I also think that it's mental because I don't have anything running through my head from a day of work and all the other stresses and worries that accumulate. My brain is blank and so my attention goes immediately to the warm body pressed behind me and whatever it is that he's doing that woke me up.

A lot of my desire I think is killed by my own self consciousness (sp?). I am very aware of my H preference for women with flat stomachs and I do not have one of those yet. The women in my family are all apples so that is a trait I will have to work harder for than normal diet and exercise can accomplish. I'll need to add things that target that area for me and cardio is really important because of my slower metabolism. I've only been slim like that twice since we've met. The first was a result of the 3 hour difference in the time we got off work and nothing to go home to. The gym a block from work became a haven. The second was when I was living in my apartment after the A and spending an hour at the gym every day to take up all the new time I had alone. My desire stems strongly from BEING desired.

So it's a work in progress again. ^_^


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Originally Posted By: PHOEN1X
I am very aware of my H preference for women with flat stomachs and I do not have one of those yet. The women in my family are all apples so that is a trait I will have to work harder for than normal diet and exercise can accomplish. I'll need to add things that target that area for me and cardio is really important because of my slower metabolism.


Since nobody can spot reduce without surgery, you might consider increasing your metabolism at a higher rate by lifting weights in targeted areas (not mid section in your case) plus eating the right foods to fuel the muscle gain. It'll give you much more bang for your metabolism buck than cardio alone.

No matter the misconceptions, lifting will not make women bulky. It will help you shed fat and keep your mid section lean and trim, without the need for crunches, etc.


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Good groups to to target with resistance exercise are large muscle groups, as they respond the most quickly - notably butt and thighs. Think squats and dead-lifts.

As far as The Vagina Monologues, there are performances of it all over youtube.


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Tee hee, I will have to check out "The Vagina Monologues"


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This is SO true for me as well!

I've noticed that a guy I wouldnt have paid attention to before ends up getting a second look when I find out he thinks Im beautiful or desirable. Weird.

I'm still getting to know the guy who is super physically attractive. But there's another guy from Sunday School who has surprised me by somehow becoming just as sexy. I don't get it, since he's not quite as good-looking as the other guy (great smile, average body, but still looks nice). But we've been hanging out for a few months as part of a group, and best I can figure out, my attraction to him is based on a combination of how nice he is to me, and how obviously he's into me.

Its events like this that make me want to go back to school for a psych degree- I feel like I just dont understand human behavior, especially when it comes to sexuality, not even my own!


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Originally Posted By: DaisyTheCat2
This is SO true for me as well!

I've noticed that a guy I wouldnt have paid attention to before ends up getting a second look when I find out he thinks Im beautiful or desirable. Weird.

I'm still getting to know the guy who is super physically attractive. But there's another guy from Sunday School who has surprised me by somehow becoming just as sexy. I don't get it, since he's not quite as good-looking as the other guy (great smile, average body, but still looks nice). But we've been hanging out for a few months as part of a group, and best I can figure out, my attraction to him is based on a combination of how nice he is to me, and how obviously he's into me.

Its events like this that make me want to go back to school for a psych degree- I feel like I just dont understand human behavior, especially when it comes to sexuality, not even my own!


YOu are talking Harley concepts here, Daisy. He's meeting your emotional needs, which makes him more attractive to you.

Strange thing here; FWW is/was attracted to my arrogance. Over the course of our marriage, my confidence, and thus my arrogance had been eroded. While I maintained that, it was attractive to her from me, but the arrogance of other men was a total turn off. When I lost my confidence, it removed that block.

Weird, eh?

Anyway, you are echoing the story of thousands of women. Again, I really suggest you pick up TVM and listen to the stories of those women. There are quite a few that would likely resonate with you.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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