Amen.

Markos should've divorced me a long time ago according to some. I'm the "dud"

Well, Prisca, that might be a two way street.

Oh I had more to say but got distracted.

My XH wanted me to leave him alone, but he didn't want a divorce. He just wanted me to shut up and 'get off his a$$'.

I came to a place of acceptance about that. I certainly 'let go' of any dream I had of having a good marriage with him. I would have ridden it out and made the best of it and been appreciative for the good parts of my life. I had a hole in my life, but I was not unhappy. My life was mostly full....I would have done my best to stay out of his way---the adultery pushed me over the edge.

Once I got to MB (after one of the OW incidents) I realized that our 'disconnect' was the way he ended up in an affair.

So, now, I counsel my friends to honor their marriage vows even when unhappy and even when they can't get their spouse on board to have a happy marriage...but I can't shake the feeling that a lot of those marriages will ultimately end up in divorce due to adultery.

I hope that is not the case with you CWMI.

What do YOU think you should do?

In case you're waiting for a reply, SW, this is why one won't be coming.

Oh, yeah. Shrug. I doubt I could say anything that would help you anyway. I do wish you and your family peace.

Yep, well, complete and total lack of empathy is confirmed. He stated that it is impossible to feel what another person is feeling. The conversation started with me requesting that he knock off the stuff about explaining why I shouldn't feel a certain way when I tell him that he's hurt me, and that I would like for him to simply recognize that I'm hurting and apologize for hurting me even when that was not his intent, *listen* to what I say hurts me, and not do it anymore. He argued that if *he* didn't feel it was hurtful, then he won't apologize and he will 'state his case' for why it isn't hurtful. Um, yeah, okay, good luck with that!

Anyway, the conversation evolved into 'putting oneself into another's shoes', and he explained that it is impossible to understand another person's feelings unless you have personally experienced them yourself. Not just some like them; the exact same feeling, brought about by the exact same event. I mentioned the tough time of having all the littles (our three youngest kids) when they were all in diapers, and all very needy, and how worn out I was everyday from giving, giving, giving and it was all I could do to keep my head above water with the constant demands on my physical and emotional strength, and asked him if he could understand what that was like for me. He said, "Nope. Never did it myself."

So I tried literature. I read a lot, and what I enjoy most about reading is experiencing things I could only experience through literature, and properly rendered literature does create emotion in me as if I were experiencing these things firsthand. H does not read much, but there is one novel we have both read that stirred a lot of emotion in me. "The Road" by Cormac McCarthy. Did it stir any in him? Nope. He enjoyed the book, but he did not go along on the emotional ride, according to him. I told him about my feelings of anxiousness, calm determination, disgust, and others while reading that book. He thinks that's CRAZY. And said that nobody can feel an emotion just from hearing about someone else's experience. It's impossible.

Huh.

So I'm nobody, then. A nobody married to a sociopath. Nice!

I already knew all this, I don't know what the hell I'm doing. You can't fix sociopath.

It's interesting that you would label him a sociopath.

It tells me you no more understand him, or accept him than he accepts or understands you.

On one hand, you want him to feel and accept what you feel. OK, I get that. But then how can you be unwilling or unable to give him the same consideration and further label him a sociopath?

You complain about his characterizations about you to others, but still have no problem not holding yourself to the same standard. You are here calling him a sociopath, but complain that he's given others the impression you are a nag.

You are getting exactly what you are giving, and complaining about it.

Just because you can understand and get emotionally touched by a book doesn't mean your husband is going to be the same way. It's not wrong for him to be that way. It's not wrong for you to be that way.

But from this vantage point on the interwebs, it looks like you want him to be like you, but you are unwilling or unable understand that he is not you and will not see, feel or think the same way you do.

I know this isn't the first time I've suggested this. In many ways, I think you are doing yourself in. He accepts his limitations, and I think he is being honest about his ability or anyone's ability to REALLY understand what another is feeling.

For example, until you've been betrayed by a spouse, it's unlikely that you will REALLY understand from an emotional perspective how that feels. You can understand mentally how you think it would feel. But until you've lived it, you likely cannot say you understand how it feels, or feel it yourself.

If he says that, and I think that's the general format of what he's saying, then why are you trying to talk him out of it, or saying he SHOULD be able to do this and if he can't then he's some sort of sociopath?

You are basically saying he should or shouldn't feel the way he does. You criticize him for that, but then you turn around and do the very same thing to him.

So why not accept that he doesn't believe anyone can feel that way from reading a book or experiencing something, without seeking to put the label sociopath on him?

You are who you are, he is who he is. Stop trying to mold him into the man of your design. He's not that man, and he will (rightly) resist your attempts to do so.

He may not be right about WHY he thinks you are crazy, but he MAY be right that you are crazy given that you hold yourself to a different standard than you hold him, and you seek to change him into someone he is not.

I believe it was Einstein who said the definition of insanity is doing the same things again and again and expecting a different result.

Would you agree you are still doing many of the same things with respect to your husband and expecting a different result? From his vantage point, you probably do look a bit crazy.

If you want empathy and understanding, why not offer him the same and knock off labeling him as a sociopath.

I think i have said this before but I don't think he is a sociopath but has Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder.

Persons with OCPD are typically deeply entrenched in their dysfunctional beliefs and genuinely see their way of functioning as the "correct" way. Their overall style of relating to the world around them is processed through their own strict standards. While generally their daily experience is such that "all is not well," they tend to be deeply committed to their own beliefs and patterns. The depth of ones belief that "my way is the correct way" makes them resistant to accepting the premise that it is in their best interest to let go of "truth owning." Yet letting go of truth is paramount in their recovery. For the purposes of this article "truth" is defined as a person's rigidly held belief which s/he feels is universally applicable.

So no, empathy would not be a strong suit! They have determined the "correct" way to think about something, so why would anyone else think another way?

I understand how it feels to be betrayed by your spouse.

I was asking for him to stop LBing me in a particular way. He explained to me why he would NOT, and it is from a lack of empathy on his part. He doesn't feel he should because he doesn't feel as I do, and can't. And if he can't feel like me, he doesn't think he should care enough to stop.

FYI, he just canceled our anniversary weekend, citing a conflict with work. Nevermind that he told me he had secured the weekend off months ago (February), and now is saying that he never did and can't get the weekend off. He suggested that we simply go out that evening instead, I convinced him to just take another weekend instead. But I'm still upset, because I was looking forward, AGAIN, to something that I was promised and is not going to happen, because he LIED about securing the time. He already told me about the hotel and where we'd eat dinner and how much he wanted to do this for me because I'm so special...NONE OF IT HAPPENED. He didn't have a hotel, he didn't have dinner reservations, he didn't even have the weekend off. It was all wishful thinking, spoken of as a done-deal.

Sorry about the labels. But damn, quacks like a duck...

Or perhaps CWMI is the one with OCP since she seems to expect her husband be like her, and because he's not she labels him as a sociopath.

That's the danger I see in this. I don't think there is only one entrenched person, but perhaps two. One has an idea about how to think about something, the other has an idea regarding the correct way to feel about something.

Both missing the reality of the other person.

That could easily describe me. I do believe in a truth that says if someone tells you that you hurt them, you should believe them, and unless you're a total turd, you should care about that.

How do you understand, by experience? If so, then you are in lock step with your husband's point, that it takes experiencing it to really know what it feels like.

If not, then can you accept that you may understand, or may THINK you understand, but he doesn't, nor does he think he can understand unless he experiences something?
But I'm not talking about his unwillingness to stop love-busting you. I'm talking about your unwillingness to accept his statement as truth regarding what he feels and thinks? After all, you called him a sociopath. Now perhaps I'm wrong. However, labeling your husband as a sociopath doesn't strike me as accepting him for who he is.

You want him to accept you, but here is an example where you are not willing to do the same.

What message does that send your husband?

Then divorce him if you can't accept him. Good grief, you have every right to, so why are you hanging on to him?

EE, the problem here is that I don't have respect for someone who ignores another's emotions, especially when that person is the inciting element of them. I don't prescribe that a person should feel a certain way, only that they should have feelings...like guilt, elation, love, disappointment...and should express them.

So there is no room in your world view for folks who don't feel as strongly as your standard, or don't express as strongly as your standard?

By saying someone SHOULD feel, you are saying they should feel a certain way. Why do they have to feel at all? What if their primary means of navigating life is not via feelings but via their thinking? So instead of expressing emotions, they express thoughts?

Are you unwilling to accept the legitimacy of such a personality?

If they want to be married to me, they need to stop LBing me regardless of their own feelings about it. He told me he just doesn't FEEL, and because of that, he will NOT stop LBing me.

I take issue with that.

I do see legitimacy in such a personality. They are certainly around. They are the serial killers and terrorists in our world. Yes, I just equated my H to a serial killer and terrorist! Gah, I am so stupid, stupid, stupid...

Go over your past week; would you be looking forward to spending time together if you were him?

I can hardly imagine the facial expressions, body language, or tone of voice you have had with him when you are struggling to even like the guy right now.

SWAG is that he did have it secured, lied about not doing it because he just got beat up and doesn't want to spend the time, or is cancelling as a way of "punishing" you.

Is he being a turd? H-E-double-hockey-sticks yes.

Are you being a turd?

As blatantly and honestly as I can express, I don't want to be a 40-year-old single mother of four young children.

I know I'll get beat up for that, and I deserve to.

I didn't get into this life by myself, and I am ill-equipped to go it alone. H and I talked about that last night, too. I told him I resented him taking my years and not loving me, I thought it was stealing. He asked why I hadn;t left, I said I was a 40-year-old woman with four young children, I didn't exactly have a life set up for dating. He asked why I would need to date? I said because I want to have a partner in my life, I find life more fulfilling with someone to share it with. Then he went off on how I never want to go on bike rides, and what did I expect him to do with me? It's just dumb stuff like that, asking me to go on a bike ride in the middle of fixing dinner or getting the kids ready for bed that makes me go, "Really??? Did I put 'bike riding' on the RI? Would you take a look at it and ask me to do the things I LIKE doing, we have 33 areas of compatibility! Ask me to do some of that, when I'm not busy with the DS and FC you demand!"

Ugh, grr, I'm having such a bad day...

But I aced my final exam this morning.

I would feel like the biggest piece of you-know-what if something I said to someone else made my H weep. Good thing, he has no feelings. lol.

His history? I believed he lied from the start. He said he did. He won't admit to lying, but he admitted that he told me it was a done deal because he didn't think there would be a problem with it. The man is a liar. But doesn't see saying, "I talked to boss, got that weekend off, made plans for us!" as a lie when it should actually be stated as "I picked a weekend, will ask later, and here's what I'd like to do!" To him, there is NO difference in those statements.

So, he doesn't have a "pout and punish" MO when you take a chunk out of his backside?

Just curious...

Or you might feel relieved, or sane. Or you might be ticked, cause it would be another lie on the pile, KWIM?