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Originally Posted by barbiecat
You need to get DS 10 into a good counselor. I hope you have insurance that will cover. Talk to your sons ped. to get a good reccomendation.

Nothing you are going to say or do is going to make XH treat him well. Your DS needs to hear that his feelings are valid, and no one...NO ONE can humiliate him for his feelings, nor shame him into submission.

This needs to not only come from you, but from someone outside the family. Seriously, this is not a Mom vs. Dad thing... this is a validation thing for your kid.

Please do everything in your power to get your son some IC support, I know IC are not (sometimes) respected here, but he obviously is conflicted AND being abused by his father.

I am so sorry to read this. Poor kid.


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Originally Posted by barbiecat
My H and DD18 have always had a terrible realtionship. I had to drag her like a cat to a bathtub to see a counselor (when she was about 13.. maybe 14).

Thank GOD I have great insurance.

After a very few short sessions, my DD18 really liked talking to her, even though things never went rosy between her father and her, she became much more confident in her dealings with him.

They are too much alike, or too seperate, but if someday they both grow up and have a positive relationship, it will be because of the IC. (I feel)


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Originally Posted by Soolee
SW...I admit first that I haven't read through or caught up, but just from your most recent posts on this, I am very concerned for your son. I feel like he is being emotionally abused if not in other ways as well. Hiding under the bed? Begging that OW and her son not come over? Please get him to a psychologist and get to the bottom of this. I feel sick over what I'm reading here.

It is so hard to accurately relay what is going on. The hiding under the bed isn't about real 'fear' on ds's part....it is ds's drama. It is his way of saying, 'I REALLY don't like what is going on and I am gonna make a big statement!'

And he didn't say he begs for OW and her son to not come over...he doesn't even tell his dad that...he told ME that. But then he often tells me differnt things about OW and her son (age 6) and I can tell he has fun when they are there. Not always of course.

Also he told me his dad scares him but he also says the same thing about my dh who is NOT scary and never says an unkind thing to him. Ds walked in our room yesterday....I was totally unclothed about to hop in the shower and dh was fully clothed. I jumped and screeched and ds quickly left the room saying sorry and dh said through the door to ds as he left, 'you need to remember to knock before you come into a room with a closed door.' Later ds said that 'scared' him.

So I had a long talk with ds about him being careful to accurately describe his feelings. And that included describing how things go at his dad's house.

Oh and after all that stuff last weekend XH had the nerve to text me and tell me he had flowers beds that needed to be weeded and he would pay ds well for the job if he wanted to come over. I just texted back, 'No. not this weekend.' Like I am going to give up my weeekend with ds so he can weed his dad's flower beds.

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SW...If your son doesn't have anyone but you, your new husband, and your ex husband to talk to without having to worry about being invalidated (no offense to you intended) then I do feel he would benefit from having a nonpartial person to talk to. I'm not an expert, as you well know, but from the outside looking in, it sounds like your son is just not mature enough to navigate your ex husband's manipulative personality. I do worry about your son.

he told ME that.

I don't think it matters who he told. Something about the situation with OW and her son coming over is bothering him. Whether he sees a change in how he is treated when they are there, or whether he doesn't like sharing his father - either way...whatever it is, needs to be discussed. I don't think it's fair to call his reactions drama, SW. Dang...if I had to go through all that your son has gone through in the last 2 years, I might not be able to wrap my head around it either. I think he realizes he has no control over it. Would be nice if there were some element of his life that he had some control over. Does he ever have an opportunity to decide what he does and does not do on a day to day basis?

My thoughts are if a child psychologist felt his time with his father was abusive or detrimental, it would change how visitation works, right? I could be wrong, but it makes sense to me. If nothing else, maybe it could result in some family therapy. Was he ever given a chance to feel stable or in some control of his life after your divorce from his father? Does he feel like a priority to either you or your ex husband at this time, like his opinion matters to the point that it could change the outcome of how he spends his time, etc.? Is he given any choices, or does he live a pretty regimented life?

Last edited by Soolee; 02/21/11 04:01 PM.

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SW...ask your son how your ex husband treats the OW's son. I am now wondering if your son is worried about the other boy.

And find out about the age thing. Call your lawyer as soon as possible. And hire someone to counsel your son to help him through this hurdle in his life and make sure there isn't more to this than you know. Have him evaluated for bipolar, perhaps, just to make sure he hasn't inherited something from his father or paternal grandmother. Upsets to a child's environment at his age that result in meltdowns such as you're describing may not be immaturity like your ex husband is defining it. It could be that he has a chemical imbalance that makes it hard for him to adjust to changes in his environment.

If he has to go with his father, you could curtail your activities with your stepsons so that he is not having to leave while fun things are going on. I think before his father comes or before you leave to drop him off, it is best that he not be engaged elbow deep in something either.




Last edited by Soolee; 02/24/11 08:00 AM.

Sooly

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Originally Posted by Soolee
SW...ask your son how your ex husband treats the OW's son. I am now wondering if your son is worried about the other boy.

If he has to go with his father, you could curtail your activities with your stepsons so that he is not having to leave while fun things are going on. I think before his father comes or before you leave to drop him off, it is best that he not be engaged elbow deep in something either.

I think the deal is....the novelty has worn off for ds and he just wants his life back. That first summer when he was going on visitation with his dad, it was movies and eating out and all sorts of fun. Then 6 months into it he introduces OW and her then 4 year old son and that was fun for a bit. Now a year past meeting OW and son he has had enough of sharing his time with his dad..having OW discipline him, having his dad take up for OW's son....(even if both discipline and defending OW's son is warranted)...Am I making sense?

Also ds is VERY aware of how much it all bothers me still and his loyalties lie with me. I know I've overplayed that at times...said too much been too transparent...but I'm trying to restrain myself and just let him have his time with his dad--even when that includes OW and her son being there. Funny thing is the less I say...the less he seems to want to even be around his dad.

Take this week for example. Ds has piano lessons on Monday across the street from our old house (where XH lives). So I asked XH this week if he would switch out and take Monday visitation instead of Wednesday. All via text...and he says, 'I'll take both.'
I say, 'sorry can't do two nights this week.'
XH: 'Why?'
Me: 'Too disruptive to his schedule to be out late two nights during the week. He comes home really wound up. So do you want to switch nights this week?'
XH: 'Sure, I'll switch but it would not hurt you to let me see my son a little more.'

I didn't respond to that but later after he got ds I texted him that he could keep him half an hour later since he got him half an hour later due to piano being later than expected.

Then yesterday he texts me at 12:30

XH: Are U gonna let me see Colton tonight too?

I ignored him for about 3 hours.

XH: Hello?

Me: We already discussed this. I said we can't do twice this week.

XH: You did not say why other than 'he gets to wound up' so it really wasn't a discussion. So can he come up for supper?

Me: Why are you pressing this? I said no.

XH: I hope your dh's ex isn't treating him this way.

And that was the end of it....but the thing I wanted to say about that is that ds DID NOT WANT to go. I've let him go extra nights a few times so I'm not totally opposed to it, but in this instance, after that last bad weekend and with ds telling me he didn't want to go....well, I just said no. Ds doesn't want to tell his dad that he doesn't want to go though. He told me his dad would be mad. I said, 'mad how?' He said, 'well, not mad, but all sad.' And he hung his head, imitating how his dad would act all dejected and sad. So I told ds, 'well, I can handle your dad, but sooner or later you will have to tell him how you feel. You just can't let yourself be manipulated by him that way...acting all sad.'

So I think ds's emotions are all over the place about his dad. I do not think he is really actually AFRAID of his dad. I think he HATES the lack of control he has about this whole deal.

We usually have all 3 boys the same weekend....we are off schedule right now, due to some bad weather where dh could get to his boys....and he is having to deal with his ex wanting to change the weekends up....but I think we will prevail and keep all 3 boys on the same schedule. This will be another 'off' weekend....ds has to go to his dad's while my step sons are here. Ds is already bummed about it...but there is nothing I can do about it.

Ugh. I have rambled...I just wanted to say that my son is very dramatic by nature....hiding under the bed at his dad's house is a dramatic reaction to him being unhappy about what was going on...he had done it here before hiding in his closet to avoid going to his dads. BUT, and this is a big BUT, he USUALLY is just fine going to his dads. So I will just have to pay attention to the patterns and keep talking to him about how things go when he is there.


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Originally Posted by Soolee
SW...If your son doesn't have anyone but you, your new husband, and your ex husband to talk to without having to worry about being invalidated (no offense to you intended) then I do feel he would benefit from having a nonpartial person to talk to. I'm not an expert, as you well know, but from the outside looking in, it sounds like your son is just not mature enough to navigate your ex husband's manipulative personality. I do worry about your son.

Honestly I worry about a visit to a child psych being used against ME. Maybe that is my leftover junk from XH trying to convince me that *I* was the problem....plus I do know I haven't behaved perfectly during this process.


Originally Posted by Soolee
I don't think it matters who he told. Something about the situation with OW and her son coming over is bothering him. Whether he sees a change in how he is treated when they are there, or whether he doesn't like sharing his father - either way...whatever it is, needs to be discussed. I don't think it's fair to call his reactions drama, SW. Dang...if I had to go through all that your son has gone through in the last 2 years, I might not be able to wrap my head around it either. I think he realizes he has no control over it. Would be nice if there were some element of his life that he had some control over. Does he ever have an opportunity to decide what he does and does not do on a day to day basis?

Probably as much as most 10 year olds. The part he hates though is being removed from his normal life and routine that existed for the first 9 years of his life and forced to go with his dad where he really has no life. They do NOTHING with other people-except OW and son. I have sacrificed a lot and given the majority of my time to my ds and created a close relationship with him with lots of friends and family. It was a life XH did not want to join---REFUSED to join. He spent his vacations and weekneds off partying or hunting or whatever....without us. Now he is paying the price of having a son who does not relate to him AT ALL.


Originally Posted by Soolee
My thoughts are if a child psychologist felt his time with his father was abusive or detrimental, it would change how visitation works, right? I could be wrong, but it makes sense to me. If nothing else, maybe it could result in some family therapy. Was he ever given a chance to feel stable or in some control of his life after your divorce from his father? Does he feel like a priority to either you or your ex husband at this time, like his opinion matters to the point that it could change the outcome of how he spends his time, etc.? Is he given any choices, or does he live a pretty regimented life?

Well he is a priority to me. I tell him that all the time in words and actions. He hasn't been shut out of my life just because I am married. Yes, I have a bedroom door that is shut (and locked) at night now and that is new...but often on days dh goes to work late or the weekend ds comes into our room and watches the news in bed with us...Last night after dh came home they went in the garage together to put together a wheelbarrow. Dh bought ds a knife that ds LOVES...he went around all day yesterday saying, 'I LOVE the knife (stepdad) got me. My dh is kind to him, involves him in things that his dad would NEVER think to do....but he also hangs back a bit and is not pushy at all with ds.

And then of course, ds is still homeschooled and so he spends the majority of his day alone with me just like always. Sure he has had changes but NOTHING like many kids of divorce have...

I am anxious to see how this weekend goes. He wasn't thrilled about his evening Monday with his dad. He said they ate and watched 3 hours of tv and he was bored.


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SW, taking your son for help dealing with the after-effects of his father's choices is in no way a BAD reflection on you.


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Originally Posted by CWMI
SW, taking your son for help dealing with the after-effects of his father's choices is in no way a BAD reflection on you.
I know that intellectually. Makes me nervous. He is going for his physical in a few weeks. I will ask for a referral then.

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30 hours until I take ds to his dad's and ds is already saying he doesn't want to go.

He also just now gave me a list of 'you know who I love Mom?' His dad came in below God, me, the dog, and my parents. LOL

Earlier I asked him how his dad treats OWs son. He said fine. Says his dad isn't mean to him or anything. As he talked it came out that his dad often makes ds defer to the OWs son's wishes because 'he's 5.' (or 6...I can't keep up). So ds is feeling that his dad favors the other boy. 2 weeks ago tomorrow one of the incidents was XH calling ds 'rude' because of something he said or did to the OW's son. Then they took the two boys to a 10 p.m. movie. Idiots.

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SW - After you take your son for his physical, can you ask to speak privately with the doctor? At his age, I am sure your son will be fine in the waiting room with a book. Can you see yourself letting the doctor know about the bipolar and manipulative characteristics on your ex husband's side of the family and recent histrionic behavior in your son? Maybe tell them that you have no materials to tell you what is normal for his age for a boy going through what he's going through and should you be watching for any type of behavior in your son, who is reaching puberty.

Hormones can trigger behaviors too, so staying informed is not the same as saying 'he is bipolar or has inherited something'. It is better to stay aware rather than avoid things out of fear.



Sooly

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Originally Posted by Soolee
SW - After you take your son for his physical, can you ask to speak privately with the doctor? At his age, I am sure your son will be fine in the waiting room with a book. Can you see yourself letting the doctor know about the bipolar and manipulative characteristics on your ex husband's side of the family and recent histrionic behavior in your son? Maybe tell them that you have no materials to tell you what is normal for his age for a boy going through what he's going through and should you be watching for any type of behavior in your son, who is reaching puberty.

Hormones can trigger behaviors too, so staying informed is not the same as saying 'he is bipolar or has inherited something'. It is better to stay aware rather than avoid things out of fear.

Yes. Good idea. I will do that. I fear looking like the bitter Xwife trying to paint the boys father as crazy.

A repeat today of what happened 2 weeks ago. Ds called me from his room sobbing hysterically, begging to come home. He had got into an argument with OWs 6 year old son and told the boy he hates him. So ds was sent to his room.

He begged me to come get him. I called XH and he said no that I could not come get him. He walked down the hall to ds's room and talked to me in front of ds (presumably out of earshot of OW too). Defending himself and trying to make it be about ds's name calling....I said, 'you don't even get what is going on here...this is about ds's frustration level getting to that point.' (FTR, I have NEVER heard or heard of ds telling ANYONE he hates them).

XH says,'What is he frustrated about?' I said, 'why don't you ask him?' So he says, 'ds what are you frustrated about?' Ds starts telling him he didn't want them (OW and son ) coming over today and he had asked his dad not to have them over. And he told his dad that he felt his dad took up for the 6 year old and that ds never could be the one that got his way on things. And that the 6 year old was allowed to say 'You aren't the boss of me' when ds didn't want his Lego creations destroyed (disassembled actually).

XH just defended himself and basically called ds a liar...saying, 'Haven't you seen me spank him?' Ds said no never. XH argued that...and I said, 'She lets you spank her son? What kind of mother is she that she would allow that?'

He didn't want to talk anymore to me after that. smile

I got on the phone with ds and tried to calm him down. I could tell XH had picked up the extension so I gauged my words carefully. Just 2 1/2 more hours until I get him back home.

I hate this.


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So I definitely am taking ds to a counselor.

You know what he did today? He stabbed himself with his pencil. In the neck. Well, it was with the eraser end which was used down to the metal and it scraped him up pretty good. But that along with comments like, 'I hate myself, I hate my life, I wish I were dead.'...have me concerned.

He was with me when this happened. I was watching another homeschooled child....our former neighbor's child....same age as ds....they were working on schoolwork and I was trying to get a shower, confirm piano lessons for both of them later and then my dh called. Ds was having a melt down about his math test. He had already came to my door when I was in the shower and I told him to do what he could and I would be out in a bit. He comes back when I am on the phone to complain about his friend doing something...I motioned for him to leave me alone for a minute. I talked for a total of 6 minutes to dh. Before I hung up friend comes to my door to tell me ds was bleeding. When I hung up, ds came into my bathroom and I cleaned him up....I was calm and asked him why he did that. He said he was so mad...that I sssh'd him when I was on the phone. Said I don't love him. That I love dh more.

Then the friend tells his sister when we all meet up for piano lessons what ds had done. As I was walking out with ds he told me he was so sad he wanted to die...that now the sister knows and she will tell everyone that he stabbed his neck with the pencil.

He seems very....needy to me lately. I am with him 24/7 when he isn't with his dad. And yet he makes comments about me not loving him any more. I assure you that isn't the case....and no one here is making him feel un included....but he FEELS that way.

So I am checking with a psych nurse friend (OWs XH btw) now for a reference for a counselor.

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His whole life has turned upside down in 2 years' time. I think it's for the best that you get him talking to a neutral person, and I think the timing is right, before he starts puberty.

Hang in there.


Sooly

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Originally Posted by Soolee
His whole life has turned upside down in 2 years' time. I think it's for the best that you get him talking to a neutral person, and I think the timing is right, before he starts puberty.

Hang in there.

I have to tell you I am pretty freaked out by the whole deal. I worry that I am going to look like the problem parent...since this thing happened on my watch.

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Why didn't you help him between your shower and phone call?


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Originally Posted by CWMI
Why didn't you help him between your shower and phone call?

There was no time between shower and phone call. I was still getting dressed and had stopped to text the piano teacher before I forgot and the phone rang mid texting.

Why are you always antagonistic in your replies? Your implication is that I caused my son to stab himself by not tending to his needs immediately.

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Originally Posted by SmilingWoman
I have to tell you I am pretty freaked out by the whole deal. I worry that I am going to look like the problem parent...since this thing happened on my watch.

I self-injure. I started when I was about your DS's age. Now, in my mid 30's, I'm pretty confident that I've stopped. My last bout of self injury was a few years ago.

My parents knew about my self injury and looked the other way. I suspect, mostly, like you, they were worried about how the were perceived.

It's really too bad, because I'm the only person that really suffered from their decision to keep appearances up at all costs. And, my parents were too afraid to confront their issues (likely borderline personality disorder and all the stuff that comes with it.)

FWIW, as a child, I used to look up to my dad, the enabling parent. Now, not so much anymore. I know he did the best that he could, but I just don't get how he decided that I wasn't worth enough to him so that he would make an effort to protect me from the abuse. As an adult, do I feel like my dad loved me? In his own capacity, I'm sure. But like a parent should? Absolutely not.

I'm wondering if your son is feeling unloved, because he perceives that you are not doing enough to protect him from his father. I'm wondering, if he told you that and then you said to him "No, that's not right. ", then that he would feel completely invalidated.

My thoughts are with your son.

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I can see how CWMI's post may appear antagonistic...

I can also see how it would appear to a child. I only say this because something similar happened to me (telling my boy I'd help him after I was done getting dressed but ending up on the phone... not the stabbing part) and my son asked me why I was on the phone next when I said I would help him next.

Not that it was wrong to be on the phone, but just that from his perspective, it appeared I was not being true to my word. He's been catching me a lot like that lately, and while it's circumstantial, I can see that from his perspective, it's not showing love. It�s showing him other things are more important. That�s not true! I make great sacrifices to be with him as much as I can and I incorporate as much snuggle and fun time as I can around my job (hard being a single mom with no visitation).

Multiply that by days weeks months of being busy and trying to juggle everything I can see why a child who has a higher than average need for affection (if I'm reading your son right) would feel un-loved and un-included even if that were the case. When my son says he doesn�t feel like I love him because he�s not getting his way, if I feel his need for attention is unreasonable, I�ve started trying to point out his mis-interpretation (�no, mommy is not dropping you off at school because she doesn�t love you. If mommy doesn�t go to work we won�t have money to buy clothes or get ice-cream�).

Wish I had some advice for you, but I am still trying to crack the nut on that BEFORE my son does something like yours. He's now saying he hates life and hates everything and especially verbal about hating that his dad won't spend time with him or call more than every other month. I did take him to a counselor for awhile and it frustrated me because he kept saying things that I couldn�t help, like get a dog (I rent- can�t exactly move right now to a place that allows pets), spend more time with him (I already spend my entire evenings with him every night except Bible study, and I have a very limited social life- my dates are pretty much lunch dates while he�s in school and any socializing is done with him in tow and then only if he�s in a mood to share me since it does no good to go out to dinner with the girls and end up talking only to him all night), and get his dad more involved (gee, if I could do that we probably wouldn�t be divorced! I�ve asked him to call more often, say once a month at least but he has �stuff to take care of.�)

Sorry for the threadjack. I just feel your pain of trying to do everything you can, feeling like you are wearing yourself out and yet things are going wrong. And all anyone does is blame you for being a bad parent. I am so sorry your son is that upset that he stabbed himself. Definitely a cry for attention, just what to do??



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I don't mean this to be antagonistic, truly.

How did you explain your decision to remarry to your son? Was he involved in that decision at all?

I am sorry for you both.

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