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Originally Posted By: Enlightened_Ex

So while there may be a minority of men who might match writer1's ex-husband, that's the MINORITY of fathers who are denied daily access to their child.


I guess the main problem I have with these statistics is that they just don't hold true for most of the marriages in my personal experience that end in divorce.

I currently know 3 people who are in the process of getting a divorce (one of them is my own cousin). In all 3 cases, it is the man who is leaving the marriage. In fact, in all 3 cases, the man is leaving his wife because he is currently involved in a relationship with another woman. My cousin is even living with his girlfriend/OW.

So, I know what Dr. Harley says about this and I read the statistics, but looking back over the majority of marriages I personally know that have ended or are ending in divorce, they just don't hold up. Could everyone I know really be an exception to the rule or is there maybe something wrong with these statistics in the first place.

I have a hard time believing that most marriages are ending because the wife either has an affair or is unhappy in the marriage and chooses to end it, but maybe that's because I only actually know of 2 marriages in my entire lifetime that ended this way.


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Originally Posted By: bitbucket
Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Additionally, he thinks that anyone who has an affair with the spouse of a deployed soldier should go to prison for 10 years.


Wonderful! What punishment for the spouse who has the affair? It is convenient around here to paint OP's as predators - overlooking the fact that many waywards are willing prey, if not predators themselves.


I have no idea, but I agree they should get the same punishment!


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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But personal experience is meaningless compared to statistics in most cases.

So unless you have thousands or tens of thousands of data points like Dr H, all you have is anecdotes, not statistics.

So your sample space of 10's doesn't compare to the sample space of one who looks at thousands of cases.

I'll go with the word of the one who sees thousands over a few dozen. That doesn't make you a bad person. It just means you don't have sufficient data to make a case for your view.

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One anecdote cancels out another.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: HeadHeldHigh

Oh, she failed at modeling marriage, or healthy relationships... kinda why I don't lean on her for my own M problems... she has no clue.



HHH, I was also raised by a corrupt parent [father], so I sympathize with you. frown He really hurt me and my brothers and sisters by teaching us that wrong is right. He wasnt just corrupt in his relationships but in all aspects of life.


It's the part of me that doesn't regret lacking exposure; the family picture on both FWW and I's sides... just crap.

Let's see; my mother - unrepentant adulteress, married to an abusive drunk.

My father - the ultimate doormat, married to a manipulative drunk.

Oldest sister - on her 4th marriage, because running is the answer to her problems.

Brother - Currently in an affairage - resulting from an RA due to his own lack of boundaries.

Older sister - divorced due to ex-husband developing a heroin addiction. Marriage was a "for the kids" sham long before his drug addiction; role-reversal for the neglected SAHM, instead a SAHD.

MIL - Serial, unrepentant adultress, married to her last AP. Former drug abuser.

FIL1 - AP - decent enough dude, BUT, functional alcholic and unrecovered drug user.

FIL2 - Actually a great guy, but currently estranged from W #3 - former drug addict, alcoholic, and wife beater (which is why MIL started A and affairage #1).

BIL - Perpetual freeloader - with a human slimeball of a woman who hasn't worked a day since she's been with him - won't let him work if it with "the wimmens" in any form - BIL hasn't had a legitimate job since I can remember, constantly working "under the table" 3 kids, 2 together, one from hobag's former BF. Both drug addicts

SIL - Renter, used to shack up with a drug addict BF in his mother's home - because she enables her sons to both be drug users and freeloaders. Currently has custody of BIL's younger 2 kids. Lives like the world owes her a favor - moved out at 16 to shack up with her XBF because, you know, rules suck and stuff.

World of poo...


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

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Originally Posted By: writer1
Originally Posted By: Enlightened_Ex

So while there may be a minority of men who might match writer1's ex-husband, that's the MINORITY of fathers who are denied daily access to their child.


I guess the main problem I have with these statistics is that they just don't hold true for most of the marriages in my personal experience that end in divorce.

I currently know 3 people who are in the process of getting a divorce (one of them is my own cousin). In all 3 cases, it is the man who is leaving the marriage. In fact, in all 3 cases, the man is leaving his wife because he is currently involved in a relationship with another woman. My cousin is even living with his girlfriend/OW.

So, I know what Dr. Harley says about this and I read the statistics, but looking back over the majority of marriages I personally know that have ended or are ending in divorce, they just don't hold up. Could everyone I know really be an exception to the rule or is there maybe something wrong with these statistics in the first place.

I have a hard time believing that most marriages are ending because the wife either has an affair or is unhappy in the marriage and chooses to end it, but maybe that's because I only actually know of 2 marriages in my entire lifetime that ended this way.


You know of three men. What of the women in those affairs? Are they all unmarried? I suspect not. Right there means you know of some marriages where the woman is leaving the man, or at least cheating on him.

Are these women honoring the vows the men you know of took? I see marriage as more than just a vow to be honored by the two who marry one another. At least in my vow, the congregation also spoke that they would uphold the vow. I think society does have a responsibility to support those vows and anyone who chooses to get involved with someone who is not their spouse is just as guilty as the wayward spouse.

But we don't hold the woman to the same standard. All sorts of talk about John Edwards, but relatively little (outside of here) about how wrong his mistress' behavior was.

Or worse, if there is a woman in an affair, she is treated as some sort of victim. Either her husband drove her to the affair, (I.E. what you said before since I was clearly talking about men who engaged in ZERO marital misconduct, I'm taking your response about the man being at fault as you are clearly blaming the innocent victim), if she leaves it's probably his fault, or she was fooled by the man she's having an affair with. She was seduced, didn't know he was married, believed him when he said she beat him, whatever nonsense.

If a man tried that sort of thing, he'd be run out of here on a rail. If a woman does, it's likely she'll get the Oprah response, "you go girl!" "You deserve better..." Or what my pastor said regarding my ex-wife's affair, "What did you do to cause her to have an affair?"

From what I've seen, since most divorces occur early in the marriage, the majority of those are filed by women. In other words, when there are still minor children living at home, odds are far greater that mom will file than will dad.

When do those odds reverse? When the children have left. I.E. longer term marriages. Men are more likely to file for divorce when the custody of their children is not at stake because they are adults.

There are exceptions, but I believe that holds for the majority of cases.

Women perceive that they'll get a better deal in divorce when they are younger and they have more power in the dating market. I.E. they are still youthful and best able to attract a mate.

When do men choose divorce? When they think they have a better deal in the divorce market. When they have less to lose, (their children) and they'll do better in the dating market. The dating market gives older, established men an advantage when it comes to attracting a partner.

Those are generalizations, but if you look at the data, it holds up well.

Those choosing divorce are women with children at home and men with children out of the nest.

Since more marriages end early compared to late, more divorces will be filed by women compared to men.

People choose divorce when it appears to be a good deal for them. I simply suggest that we make divorce a bad deal for anyone who is guilty of marital misconduct or for those who choose to divorce someone whom they cannot or will not prove marital misconduct.

Marital misconduct should be prosecuted, but it isn't, and that hurts the children who are torn from one parent or another.

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Originally Posted By: Enlightened_Ex
But personal experience is meaningless compared to statistics in most cases.

So unless you have thousands or tens of thousands of data points like Dr H, all you have is anecdotes, not statistics.

So your sample space of 10's doesn't compare to the sample space of one who looks at thousands of cases.

I'll go with the word of the one who sees thousands over a few dozen. That doesn't make you a bad person. It just means you don't have sufficient data to make a case for your view.


I get that. I'm just saying for me, personally, it's hard to feel sorry for men in general when I know so many of them who are screwing over their wives right now. And everyday, we have new women show up here who are being cheated on and abused. It isn't just guys with cheating wives who come here. It's both. So obviously, there are still plenty of men out there who are neither loyal nor faithful.

Last edited by writer1; 12/29/10 04:10 PM.

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Originally Posted By: Enlightened_Ex

You know of three men. What of the women in those affairs? Are they all unmarried? I suspect not. Right there means you know of some marriages where the woman is leaving the man, or at least cheating on him.


Actually, I know for sure 2 of them are not married. One has never been married (she's much younger than the man) and one is divorced. I believe the 3rd has never been married either.


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Originally Posted By: Enlightened_Ex

I see marriage as more than just a vow to be honored by the two who marry one another. At least in my vow, the congregation also spoke that they would uphold the vow. I think society does have a responsibility to support those vows and anyone who chooses to get involved with someone who is not their spouse is just as guilty as the wayward spouse.


I agree with this.

My mother was an OW. She wasn't married at the time that she had an A with my father and got pregnant with me, but he was married, with 3 children. What she did was most definitely wrong. They were both wrong.

But as far as the betrayal of my father's wife goes, I do think his was worse. After all, he was the one who was married to her. He was the one who took vows saying he would honor her and be faithful to her. My mother didn't make those promises to her. My father did.

In my own case, I was mad at my H's OW for "betraying" me, especially since she was supposed to be my "friend." But I was even more angry with my WH. After all, he was the one who married me and made a lifelong commitment to me, not her.


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Originally Posted By: Enlightened_Ex


People choose divorce when it appears to be a good deal for them. I simply suggest that we make divorce a bad deal for anyone who is guilty of marital misconduct or for those who choose to divorce someone whom they cannot or will not prove marital misconduct.

Marital misconduct should be prosecuted, but it isn't, and that hurts the children who are torn from one parent or another.


I agree with this wholeheartedly, whether that be the man or the woman.


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Originally Posted By: HeadHeldHigh

World of poo...


My family is about as bad. But I am a voracious reader with a functioning left brain so I eventually learned about right and wrong on my own. Sounds like you somehow figured it out, too!


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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EE, I just wanted to say how much I have enjoyed and continue to enjoy reading your posts.


When you can see it coming, duck!
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*** BUMP ***

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***SCRATCH***


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed
Quote:
Stop giving mothers who can't honor their vows custody preference over betrayed fathers whose "crime" is being romantically challenged.


And why do you think the judges, lawyers, and law-makers jointly decided that "motherhood" - good, bad, or skank-provided - is automatically better than "fatherhood"? Because they've been brainwashed by the same crap that the whole society has.

As an aside, my (least) favorite news story in this regard was a case involving a child's death here in enlightened NY. "Mommy" was living with "D1ck" her boyfriend du-jour, when they, evidently jointly, saw to it that her 2-year-old starved to death.

So tell me, who was the greater criminal here? The brood-mare who watched her flesh and blood wither and die, or the boyfriend (not party to the child's conception) who joined her in that exercise?

Result? His sentence was 15 years. Hers? Seven to ten.


Amen, amen, amen, brother! The system stinks and sets children up to be abused, especially physically and sexually, by their egg donor's shack-ups.

I can't understand why the courts don't acknowledge it, because the school's definitely deal with the fall-out.

I can't think of one high profile case where a bio-dad hooked up with his GF and starved, beat, assaulted, etc his child to death. It's cases of mothers with their SO's that do this that are in the news.

The parental alienation that so many fathers experience is uncalled for. The laws definitely need changing.


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Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed
I'm posting this here, though it might as well work in "Surviving An Affair"

For Christmas, my son received a book entitled something like "In 50 Years....We'll all be Chicks!" The premise is that the "political correctness" of "modern civility" has basically turned modern Western man into a mess of fear and worry about doing something which would permit the femi-Nazis to label him, as unevolved, a neanderthal!

Well, reading through the posts of the last dozen male(?)BS's in SAA has brought me to the following conclusion:"BRING BACK THE NEANDERTHALS!"

Seriously, these men, betrayed and cuckholded by their wives, present themselves as weepy, cringing victims of scheming calculating uber-women, and so beaten down that they will do anything to avoid more abuse (or, worse: displeasure!) by the WW's.

They won't threaten divorce, they won't expose, they won't take difficult stands, they won't stand up for their basic rights! They're practically ovulating, in their weepiness and helplessness.

I'm not advocating that all men swagger around with "Stanley Kowalski" mentalities, but they also should not be playing the part of "Blanche Dubois"! When I found out about my wife's EA, I don't think my reaction would possibly have been viewed as "understated" or "civilized". I'm not all that proud about some of it (being arrested was no fun!), but if nothing else, she knew that deep down our marriage was important to me, and I wasn't going to let her continue playing her game. Her immediate NC, remorse and efforts to help me heal were triggered by this knowledge.

If men show this little backbone after being smacked by their wives' infidelity, it's not hard to see why those same wives had so little regard for their husbands' feelings and responses, opening the gates for their affairs. Returning some real "maleness" to today's supposed "males" would likely prevent a great deal of female "confusion" about the joint roles of a marriage. (Two "wives" are obviously not working well!)

We might need a movement along the lines of neo-Neanderthalism. Who's with me?

I read your post and while I can see your point in some areas.....I was a bit surprised it was on here. I think we have evolved from dragging our nuckles on the ground. I dont think hitting yoour wife makes you more of a man...in fact it makes you an abuser. I am a woman whos H had an EA on me. He is every bit a man and we hold very traditional roles so what would be his excuse? If he was truely a man.....full of maleness as you put it, he would not have done this to me. Texas swagger is alive and well and ridiculous.

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If he was truely a man.....full of maleness as you put it, he would not have done this to me.
Agreed. Thank you for supporting my position!

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I cringe at the idea of bringing back old fashioned "maleness" because the males I know in my parents generation are the most unpleasant creatures I can imagine for the most part. They blame the women in their lives for everything that went wrong for them, daughters included, and award themselves the credit for everything that went right. They dismiss anything a woman has to say as being unworthy of listening to and are outright rude to whoever they please. They are damaged people with no ability to love truly.

My husband on the other hand, messes up sometimes but holds his head up high and works on doing better, is strong and capable of taking care of us when we need it but not worried about how he appears to people so he doesn't need to bolster his own ego by putting someone else down below him. He is forgiving and loving, while holding me to the ideals we have set for ourselves together. We are equals, he would no more tolerate me walking all over him than it would occur to him to try to railroad me into something.
I love him. I don't want a neanderthal, I want a caring man who knows his own worth, and mine.

Last edited by Rosycheeks; 03/03/11 11:18 AM.

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Originally Posted By: Rosycheeks
I cringe at the idea of bringing back old fashioned "maleness" because the males I know in my parents generation are the most unpleasant creatures I can imagine for the most part. They blame the women in their lives for everything that went wrong for them, daughters included, and award themselves the credit for everything that went right. They dismiss anything a woman has to say as being unworthy of listening to and are outright rude to whoever they please. They are damaged people with no ability to love truly.

My husband on the other hand, messes up sometimes but holds his head up high and works on doing better, is strong and capable of taking care of us when we need it but not worried about how he appears to people so he doesn't need to bolster his own ego by putting someone else down below him. He is forgiving and loving, while holding me to the ideals we have set for ourselves together. We are equals, he would no more tolerate me walking all over him than it would occur to him to try to railroad me into something.
I love him. I don't want a neanderthal, I want a caring man who knows his own worth, and mine.


Since you and I are around the same age, I will agree... however... this puts poor NG in that "Sweet Spot."


Unfortunately, it's correct.

The men of my father's generation - those that are chest-beating "manly men" - are losers. They are self-indulgent, self-entitled, self-deluded jerks that got half of the picture from their own fathers (who believed so much in hard work, that they often forgot to be fathers to their sons).

The octogenarians and above are pretty amazing men, but they were of a generation that sometimes overemphasized work over family - yet somehow were still able to strike the balance.

However, to be fair, it is also some of the chest-beating females of that generation that created the problem - they can do everything as good as men, if not better, because men are pigs.

Thanks.


*Oink*


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Unfortunately the men around them often were pigs. To be fair, they had some pretty awful parenting advice given to THEIR parents, but at some point personal responsibility has to take over.

I can't respect the men in the generation above me though usually, although I did meet the father of a close friend recently who made me think twice. I think he's the first man around my father's age (55-65ish) who I've ever seen be really interested in what others have to say. I know I have a bit of a messed up background (alcoholic father who was himself messed up by his abusive parents and thankfully broke the cycle of the physical abuse by never hitting us) but I see the same sorts of men everywhere I look. DH's father is one of the most chauvinistic unpleasant people I've ever met, when I gained weight after having our first daughter he tried to convince my hubby to get on a dating site to meet someone slim, and told dh that I was just out to screw him over (because I stand up for myself and don't "do as I'm told").

Last edited by Rosycheeks; 03/03/11 03:57 PM.

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