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I wanted to say hello, I'm glad you and Pep, have found each other, I'm so far removed from what you guys are facing I have trouble coming up with any advice that could be sound.
Thanks for checking in on me,
I hanging in there, still got a long way to go......
Me BS 54 XWW 51 Divorce final 1/9/12 DS26 DS24 Twin DD's22 Married 29years D-dates No1 01/2007, No2 08/2008(ongoing)
Since the episode with the cops hauling WW into hospital I stayed very dark. Really dug in deep to myself with what was discussed here and on another thread. Comes down to letting go and control. I was defiantely lacking in both areas.
Since I was only 5 miles from home basically have been taking care of DD from the apartment. Meet her to get gas, what she needs and such. Eat out and some fun stuff.
Could tell home was not right as DD did not want to talk about it.
Feb 21st
WW's parents call me and ask me If I will stay at the house and take care of DD and WW is staying with them.
Get the rest of the story. Since cops were at the house (jan 31?) in detox 2 more times. WW is at there house to sober up again. Will not come back to the house if I move back in with DD. I am agreeable.
Back to the house again.
My requirements to break N/C with WW
Quit drinking and work a program of recovery Quit A and write a N/C letter to Baldo
WW hooked back up with her sponsor from last spring and the sponsor was ready to pick up again w/WW. Sponsor already had her write and mail a N/C letter to OM. Told WW she could have all the sex she wanted-->As long as it was with her H!
WW just completed her 5th step yesterday. Sponsor already has WW lined up to go into DETOX with her to present AA meetings and WW is agreeable. Also finish steps 8 &9 within the next week.
Sponsor already says WW will be sponsoring other woman within a month. WW is hesitant and will work with sponsor with a few woman first and then proceed.
This is only day 9 here of her sobriety so I am still really gun shy since I have seen some of this before.
WW is staying now since Monday at my apt which I plan to let go of at the end of March. Monitoring is in effect at this point and nothing is happening except the truth. We have seen each other little but have talked a lot by phone.
When WW went to treatment last time my I /C kept asking me each time when I would see WW if there was any type of ahaa moment that I noticed during those visits. At that time the answer was no. The last few days when we have talked I do now see it. It appears she gets it.
Out of the blue she apologized to me for putting me into this postion. A house and an apt. and volunteered that I stay in the house. There really is nothing at the apt. Also apologized to me for creating havoc between the kids and I.
This is a new and uncharted way of communicating with the WW since it has been so long since anything resembling empathy was presented.
My question is do I now meet her needs should she let me at this point or do I wait and see? As long as WW is progressing with her personal recovery do I try to progress at a slow pace with her. Hopefully into MR? Eventually?
At this point she is trying to re-establish and repair the relationship with the DD.
Also wants to be at the house for brief lengths of time. Made supper for us and a cake the other night and left before either of us got home.
Just wondering what I should be doing. Her top need is conversation and at times we can just blab and blab. Other times talk is strained.
Haven't really brought up any R talk. Most of our conversations revolve around alcohol recovery right now. Not specifically her as the topic. Just general talk on our feelings or interpretaion about topics. Charlie Sheen been a good one lately. Also opens up side topics about how screwed up his relationships are.
I know it takes time to see if all of this is real. I am monitoring and to this point everything is cool.
Do we just kinda date and hang out for now and keep it real low key. Thats what I take from your post. Push easy? Just Be?
Why in the world would you date a woman with less than a month of sobriety? Would you tell any of your male friends this is a good idea? What makes you think this is wise and/or beneficial for YOU?
Last edited by Pepperband; 03/04/1104:58 PM. Reason: fixed
Why in the would would you date a woman with less than a month of sobriety?
I don't want to put it this way but she's no woman-She's my W.
WW is still my W. Otherwise if I was single or free I would not date anyone nor tell anyone to date someone thats newly sober.
The old connection comes back quickly when she is sober because we had 10 years together when she was sober. I went through detox/withdrawl of her cocaine use in 86 & 87. She actually went to treatment/AA meetings/church then and somewhat worked a program. That transition of getting back together was weird.
She easily knows how to meet my needs when sober and is a good wife, mother and lover to me. A totally different person. Dr.Jeckyll and Mr Hyde.
11 years of being drunk has drug all that around-spit it out-chewed it up-stepped on it-spit on it a few more times-In spite of that I believe the good woman is still inside of there someplace. Probably not the same woman as 11 years ago. Maybe better for wear or worse from physical damage Would you tell any of your male friends this is a good idea?
Definately not and would call them a 13 stepper which I have witnessed and p's me off. 100% would discourage it.
What makes you think this is wise and/or beneficial for YOU?
[color:#3333FF]Deep down I filed for D because I could not take the FR's-Head Game playing-crazyness with drinking-Not drinking-Contact-No-contact w/OM -mess around me. I decided for myself I was better off on my own.
I also have kept myself open to possible MR should she arrive at a point where healing in the M be made. Not me pushing it-Her wanting it too. I have until June 6th before the last court date for the D. Under the right circumstances the D could be stopped.
At this point I believe there is a good woman in there that I was supposed to love in sickness and health. I truely come from the mental illness standpoint of alcoholism. As far as I know she has never had any type of A be it EA or PA when sober. When she sobered up in '87 the POS just went away. She even chased him away verbally in front of me and a whole crowd when we ran into him in public. It was the moment I knew he was no issue in our R anymore.
At this time I am open to whatever happens. Should we stay M and enter R I will push to A proof the M. Poja/Porh and so forth. Try to follow this MB program as best as possible. I am just OK with whatever direction this goes-Be it together or alone-I don't want my old marriage back and I won't settle for it either....
I am not trying to promote dating her I am asking more what should I do or not do with Her?
Its a strange limbo.
nESRE
Last edited by nesre; 03/05/1108:18 PM. Reason: [b]clear up whos cocaine use[/b]
You can love a person and yet still release him/her in order to save your sanity.
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Her wanting it too.
I am assuming she has not expressed a desire to stop the divorce. Am I correct?
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Under the right circumstances the D could be stopped.
This is interesting. If you were playing poker, this might be your "tell".
Originally Posted by Wiki
Tell (poker) A tell in poker is a subtle but detectable change in a player's behavior or demeanor that gives clues to that player's assessment of his hand. A player gains an advantage if he observes and understands the meaning of another player's tell, particularly if the tell is unconscious and reliable. Sometimes a player may fake a tell, hoping to induce his opponents to make poor judgments in response to the false tell.
Here's what I think. I think you need to give serious consideration to boundary issues that you have. Your boundaries. Not hers.
We who love an alcoholic all have boundary problems. We move the boundary to accommodate our love's disease. I do it. You do it.
You can love a person and yet still release him/her in order to save your sanity.
Through sharing the example of your son the message clicked. After the police visit your posts sunk in further. Also leaned on sponsor hard.
For my sanity I just needed to stay away and I did. DD was very tight lipped during the time. FIL/MIL got the message to me when she finally crashed.
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Her wanting it too.
I am assuming she has not expressed a desire to stop the divorce. Am I correct?
She has expressed a desire and then plays victim as in its your lawyer and I am helpless. She does not have a lawyer. She wont straight out ask me to get the paperwork so we can sign it and at this point today I am not sure I want to.
I need out of this adultry playground since the OM lives close by. Sometimes OM drives by several x's a day since he has relatives on the other side of us. WW is reluctant to sell since we would probably not run into a deal like we did when we bought. We would have never been able to afford the house under regular conditions. (Foreclosure deal) WW does not want to be responsible for "US" selling the dream on the lake with all the toys.
Swear on a stack of Bibles-I would rather be out of here and into another house 20-30 miles away the opposite direction where WW could turn it into a "home". This dream is not my dream anymore. I have expressed my desire and reasons to move many times over the past 3 years. Always come back to her point of having the "package" for when grandbabies come along. DS 27 is not even thinking about children and DD is 17. HOPE NOT YET!!!
D for sure will get me out of here. I can afford it alone but it would be tight. No way could she on her income. I would not stay here. If you drove by here you would have the perfect facade of the lakehouse dream. The important word is FACADE.
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Under the right circumstances the D could be stopped.
This is interesting. If you were playing poker, this might be your "tell".
Originally Posted by Wiki
Tell (poker) A tell in poker is a subtle but detectable change in a player's behavior or demeanor that gives clues to that player's assessment of his hand. A player gains an advantage if he observes and understands the meaning of another player's tell, particularly if the tell is unconscious and reliable. Sometimes a player may fake a tell, hoping to induce his opponents to make poor judgments in response to the false tell.
Her tell is obvious at this point. Everything has been about alcohol recovery. Time is spent at meetings, working with sponsor. or in the coming week going back to the detox center she was in 8x's in the last year and freaking out the staff there to present a meeting w/her sponsor.
I have seen the first two before but the third (detox center) is something new. Also sponsor said WW will sponsor a woman within a month. Basically the meeting at detox is to try and find a sponsee.
Not 100% sure this is real with such little sobriety.
Here's what I think. I think you need to give serious consideration to boundary issues that you have. Your boundaries.
I will be in to see I/C this week. We will discuss this more. I know my enforcement of consequences is weak so my boundry means nothing.
Not hers.
We who love an alcoholic all have boundary problems. We move the boundary to accommodate our love's disease. I do it. You do it.
What message does that send to our alcoholic?
What message does that send to our alcoholic?
Anytime I test you, you will just move your boundry. YOU will not be a rock. You will be blown about by the wind with whatever direction it is blowing. Demonstrates unconditional love-I will love you no matter what Enables undesireable behavior since i know he will just accomodate me. Leaves me vulnerable to manipulation.
Searched a while for boundary article yesterday and found a quote quite fitting:
Quote
Learning to set boundaries is a vital part of learning to communicate in a direct and honest manner. It is impossible to have a healthy relationship with someone who has no boundaries, with someone who cannot communicate directly, and honestly. Learning how to set boundaries is a necessary step in learning to be a friend to ourselves. It is our responsibility to take care of ourselves - to protect ourselves when it is necessary. It is impossible to learn to be Loving to ourselves without owning our self - and owning our rights and responsibilities as co-creators of our lives.
Quite fitting since our R has been screwed up for some time.
I find that for myself instead of developing good boundaries I have gotten into a defensive pattern that does not help the R at all.
The defensive pattern is practiced with both of us.
Defensivness is fight or flight pattern. WW is the fight and I am the flight. Manipulation does occur by both of us since we both know how to trigger each other.
Thi is a rotten pattern and from reading the few articles yesterday I know I need to get out of it.
With our contact this past weekend I see how I am behind the changes WW is making. Not sure I trust them yet. She is talking about boundaries (something she has not had at all) and starting to let them be known and I am going WHAT? WHAT you talking about.
The R on both sides has been dishonest for quite some time.
This is the ugly wierdness that I felt after WW's sobering up in 1987. The rules are starting to change. I know I have work to do. Part of protecting myself over the past several years has been plain old defensiveness and that does not work because I end up in crazyville and out of control with my life. Boundaries with consequences are meant to keep me safe.
More later-brain ticking.........
M 29 yrs DS 28 DD 18 Me 53 FWH FBS MTA signed 5/11/2011 D final 5/16/2011
Free.... and going wherever the big guy wants me to go......
My suggestion is to write out your boundaries for any relationship.
Do not begin with a marriage relationship. Too many land mines. Begin with the least possible emotional relationship.
Try thinking about a generic work relationship. Then, maybe move on to thinking about a male-to male friendship.
Just those less emotional relationships for now. Post (here) what boundaries you come up with.
Here is something I said (many times in 30 years) to patients who asked me to lie on some sort of excused absence form they needed to present to their work supervisor, about their illness... (or their fake illness).
"You are asking me to lie for you. I will not lie to you. I will not lie for you. I will not jeopardize my career by lying, in order for you to get something out of you employer."
My eyes never left their eyes while I spoke. I was using my "sincere but serious" face.
If they asked again, as they often did, I simply replied, "I will not lie to you. I will not lie for you."
That is what my boundary acted like at work.
I hope this helps.
Start boundary work far away from your WW relationship.
My suggestion is to write out your boundaries for any relationship.
Do not begin with a marriage relationship. Too many land mines. Begin with the least possible emotional relationship.
Try thinking about a generic work relationship. Then, maybe move on to thinking about a male-to male friendship.
Just those less emotional relationships for now. Post (here) what boundaries you come up with.
Start boundary work far away from your WW relationship.
Pep
Saw I/C yesterday. We spent most of the session discussing boundaries. We started at co-workers/friendships/sponsees (I have boudaries for them and won't sponsor unless they agree to them) and moved all the way up to M Relationship. We agreed that the boundaries I have appear to be fine order in the least intimate relationships and then go haywire with the close relationships. I have been working on this for some time already on my own. I have practiced with my co-workers, friends, and sponsees over the past several years.
I think what I wrote in a recent past post says a lot concerning this. I wrote "She's no woman-she's my wife". Counselor confronted the different set of boundaries for friends and wife scenario. Also the unfairness and we briefly discussed possibilites with where this all came/comes from. There is a list-and trust me I still work on some of the items on the list little by little.
I know the exact moment I crossed over to "A used life". The moment when the last piece of my own my life died. All I was or to become was given up to try and change a situation. I freely gave my life away and made it my mission to solve all the problems.
Funny-God never called and even said thank you!
Just like my first real drunk I know exactly where I was and what I was doing. I know exactly where I was and what I was doing and the whole thought process when I decided to Give my life over to the point of pain, frustration and hurt to an abuser.
IRL I could explain this. On paper its extremely hard for me to put the words together.
Short explanation-Codependant
I am not comfortable laying my whole past of where I was (the list) out here on a public forum.
I/c knows the whole story.
What baffels me is I appear to do so well with alcoholism and the steps. Does God make mistakes or have a specific plan? He has a plan. Went over to local mall and they have a used bookstore. Went in not looking for anything in paticular and what jumps out on the shelf for a rediculously low price-CD's guide to the twelve steps by Melody Beetie.
For some reason I compartmentalize the two issues seperately and other times agree with what first sponsor (aa/al-anon member) said that they are identical. Going to work through the steps from my CD side only and try to shut off the alcoholism.
I am going to work the steps from a different perspective and I trust with time I will gain my life back again.
Have worked together with my brother in the past on FOO issues. That has helped to clear up questions I had about relatives in the past that just never seemed to be right. Sometimes those unanswered questions explain a lot of what was going on at the time. Sometimes just sharing with brother what we had suspected or believed as our truth has cleared up "whys or whats" of the past.
I/C wasn't too hot about jumping in with WW. Advised me to be extremely slow and place boundaries along the way. Easy ones first. A few at a time. Meet Conversation, recreational, and possibly affection if open to it only for now and see how much progression there is over the next few weeks.
I/C wasn't too hot about jumping in with WW. Advised me to be extremely slow and place boundaries along the way. Easy ones first. A few at a time. Meet Conversation, recreational, and possibly affection if open to it only for now and see how much progression there is over the next few weeks.
nESRE
Sounds very reasonable. My brevity is due to me currently watching news on Japan & tsunami warning here on the coast.
I/C wasn't too hot about jumping in with WW. Advised me to be extremely slow and place boundaries along the way. Easy ones first. A few at a time. Meet Conversation, recreational, and possibly affection if open to it only for now and see how much progression there is over the next few weeks.
nESRE
Sounds very reasonable. My brevity is due to me currently watching news on Japan & tsunami warning here on the coast.
Pep Happy to see you on this am.
The quote above already shot me in the foot. Felt the crazies yesterday when talking to WW even though I am really living by the first 3 steps from the book I bought. Still couldn't keep away from them.
At 4 am today I wake up uneasy and abrupt. I drive to the house. DD in bed. No WW to be found.
About 7 am she calls all happy and what time are we going to go like we planned yesterday? Let her know I was up to the house. Gave her time to explain. Got Bar-OM's because DD was with his DD-Trying to get DD home from OM's house-Drank all night at the bar. Pitch dark and no cars. Yea right.
Tired of the lies-Tired of the manipulation-Felt the gaslighting yesterday-THE CRAZIES-
Told her to just change the date of the last Plan B letter and please understand that the conditions spelled out in the letter apply again. I am not up for going through whatever "it is" (drinking/A with Baldo-or whoever) again. When you are ready to meet the conditions let your parents know and I will consider if I want to have a R with you.
So its back to airtight Plan B again. Appeared to drive her nuts last time even though it was only a few weeks.
From my side I find that I only have a small amount of love left in the bank. My selfish self wants her to get better and you better do it soon! I have to let that part go.
Boundaries-to preserve what I have or for the future wherever life leads me. No way do I want to continue in Crazyville.
Here's what I think. Feel free to ignore, as it is only my opinion.
NO MORE "benefit of the doubt" for her.
She must earn each and every moment of your precious time.
I'd steer clear from her entirely until she has been meeting the Plan B conditions for LONGER THAN 6 months.
You are aware, I hope, that this is not about OM. This is entirely her disease at work. The OM could die tomorrow, she's have the same mind set, the same behaviors and the same lack of insight into herself.
Her road will be a long one. Leave her to it. That is her best chance. Let God fill that emptiness that is God sized.
Life your life. Live it well. Be happy. Seek serenity.
Here's what I think. Feel free to ignore, as it is only my opinion.
Pep I know I do not fit the MB norm and I value what you write and post not only to me but also to others. You are an amazing person with your style and the way you lead people to conclusions. To question themselves not just skin deep but to truely dig in and feel, know, understand what they believe in. Thank You!
I understand this program will not work until a time comes where WW is free of the alcohol. I originally came to read a lot and work on myself. Extremely naive and misunderstood M relationship when I found this site. Also after watching a lot of posts I found a few that were alcohol/drug/other addictions related and followed them to see if any of this worked. I searched all over (books/internet) for any support for "OUR SITUATION". Chances appear to be slim to none as long as the addict in active use.
No matter how much I want to control the situation I have no control. When I think I do have control I am really out of control in my life.
NO MORE "benefit of the doubt" for her.
She must earn each and every moment of your precious time.
I'd steer clear from her entirely until she has been meeting the Plan B conditions for LONGER THAN 6 months.
I need to turn from a golden retriever into a rottwieller and protect my space until I see who is really wanting to come in it. Not to be agressive-just protective until it is safe.
You are aware, I hope, that this is not about OM. This is entirely her disease at work. The OM could die tomorrow, she's have the same mind set, the same behaviors and the same lack of insight into herself.
It could be any man at the bar who has the same characteristics as the OM. OM is the target because he represents the obnoxyis (sp) loud mouth show off with a pocket full of money. The only reason the bars put up with him is because he does spend money. Pretty shallow. Treated his XW and XLTGF like crap when he was with them.
Her road will be a long one. Leave her to it.
nESRE-1st step
That is her best chance. Let God fill that emptiness that is God sized.
nESRE 3rd step
Life your life. Live it well. Be happy. Seek serenity.
nESRE-All 12
Have you ever filed for divorce?
Yes. No fault state. Could be final in June. Haven't done much with it yet. Discovery stage has to be complete By the end of the month so I need to get going with it. WW won't just settle unless its her settlement.
I am more willing to put the trust into the hands of a mediator or judge unless she backs off on the spousal support. 28 years of M will probably make them question why so long and could hurt me. Scheduled with lawyer next week to strategize.
Basically WW's settlement would allow her to reach close to retirement age with more money per month than I wouyld have. This is w/o c/s figured in to the factor. C/S would end before the end of the year so it really is not a factor. Thats pretty cut and dried. This would mean I work basically work up to about retirement age paying her support. I'm not real hot about "her" deal.
I wanted to check in on you, I'm glad your moving forward in your D, I hope it is going well for you. I know the WW will get half, but the alimony, at least in Tennessee is something the court has discretion over, and how it's played can make a huge difference in how you live.
I know you don't want to spend your life paying for the WW liquor, and I have a feeling the court may feel the same way.
I see your spending a lot of time helping others here, glad to see you are.......
Me BS 54 XWW 51 Divorce final 1/9/12 DS26 DS24 Twin DD's22 Married 29years D-dates No1 01/2007, No2 08/2008(ongoing)
Music gets to me in a way words can't. Thanks for the link Nesre.
Widowed 11/10/12 after 35 years of marriage ********************* “In a sense now, I am homeless. For the home, the place of refuge, solitude, love-where my husband lived-no longer exists.” Joyce Carolyn Oates, A Widow's Story
