Thanks for finding this Markos.

I'm curious what Dr. Harley's advice would be if ambition in one's spouse was one of the top EN's for someone. It seems to me, in that case, simply ignoring it (because the spouse is not in fact ambitious) wouldn't really work, since leaving a top EN unmet is not generally recommended.

It would be like giving anyone a free pass not to meet any top EN simply because it isn't something they feel like they could do. No one would ever say it was okay for a wife not to meet her H's need for SF (if that's his top EN) simply because she has a very low sex drive and doesn't feel as though she could meet it. If that were the case, a course of action that would lead to the wife being able to meet that need for SF would almost certainly be the goal. So, I wonder why Dr. Harley would say it's okay for someone not to meet another EN that was important to their spouse?

I'm not saying ambition in my H is my top EN. I don't really think it is. But I suspect it may be in my top 5, and while I can obviously learn to live without it (I've been doing so for my entire M) I suspect that I will always feel on some level that something is missing in my M because that need may never be met.

Isn't ambition just a desire for more, more money, more success, more stuff? I can't see how this is a need that can be met for others. You can ask someone to do the particular things that make you happy, like earning more money, but you can't ask them to WANT to do it other than to please you.

My instinctive response is that ambition is a personal feeling, much like our feelings and reactions to things and like those is much harder to change than our behaviour.

I'm curious, too, writer. Would you consider emailing Joyce and asking them about it?

Why can't one achieve ambition the same way as other EN's? Fake it till you make it etc.? Why is it so different from the other? For example, if a woman really has a low to non-existant drive, why is she expected to work on overcoming it to fulfil her H's EN but she is supposed to just accept her ambitionless husband as is?

Ambition is definitely one of my top 3 ENs and it definitely went un-met in my marriage. While we met and married in university when he talked about going to med school, he ended up being a grocery store clerk who had to work tons of overtime just to pay the bills and was afraid to even try for promotions or apply to better jobs that suited his degree (for which we were paying student loans for!). Believe me, he could have been Adonis, brought me flowers everyday, catered to my every whim and I still wouldn't have found him attractive enough to get over my aversion!!! It left me with an underlying feeling of resentment that affected every single interaction with my spouse, including the feeling that he had tricked me into thinking he was something he wasn't and trapped me into the marriage. It's a pretty powerful feeling when a top EN is ignored.

Now, I didn't know about MB then, and he's gone now so I can't go back and try it and report back how it works. But I'm pretty sure that if I had have seem some effort from him to better himself in even the smallest way, it would have melted away a TON of that bitterness and probably changed how the whole thing worked out.

But you can meet a need for sf without having it having to become your own need. We can ask someone to do the dishes, but we can't ask them to find the dishes being done as important as we do.

Maybe we're using the word ambition differently but to me the word means "the desire for success" not the actual success itself. How can we make someone else desire something?

I definitely find my husband more attractive now he is working hard at something that makes him feel good about himself than when he was in a dead end IT job that he hated. I guess thats my version of Attractive Spouse, I like being able to admire him for his achievements. I understand how that works, but to want him to have ambition would mean I would need him to change his own desires. Maybe I could better understand it worded as successful spouse or something. It may be a UK/US word meaning issue though.

Not to me.

When I think of ambition, I think drive, enthusiasm, passion, thirst, aspiration, purpose, desire, excitement.

These are some of the characteristics that attracted me to my husband when we met and continues to be some of the qualities that make me head over heels in love with him. So I guess this is one of my top ENs, too, because I'm attracted to and have a great respect for people (men and women) with high ambition.

To me, money and other material things aren't the goal.

Ambition could be a relief worker passionate about feeding, clothing and providing medical treatment to people in a disaster zone.

Ambition is an artist excited to enter the studio each day.

It's an athlete, a teacher, an attorney, a stay at home mom, a little league coach, a student, a volunteer or even a friend taking pride in his or her work and aspiring to do it with excellence. It's caring about the people affected by the services you provide.

In my husband, it's being thirsty to take on the next construction project and being excited to take on new technologies and the unique challenges at each site. It's his desire for success and quality, mindful of the many employees and families relying on that success and quality for their livelihood. It's his passion and excitement he has for me and our kids. It's his enthusiasm he has for his hobbies, time spent with friends and family and our future. He is ambitious about life in general.


Yes, some people are innately more ambitious than others, obviously. Just as some have a higher sex drive or are more athletic or are a better cook or a better conversationalist.

But there's no reason someone can't attempt to be more ambitious.

We all do this when we try to be more physically fit. We aspire to exercise and eat better. We change our lifestyle. We become ambitious in this fitness regard, and after some time if we're doing it right, some of our actions become habit.

Our lifestyle isn't the only thing that changes. Our mindset changes, too. What we start out doing grudgingly in many cases turns into something we're excited and passionate about.

We can't. We can't make anyone else do or think anything.

All we can do is tell our spouse what we want or need and suggest the tools to get there.

Parents encourage their kids and employers encourage their employees to be more ambitious every day. Ambitious behavior can be learned, and the great part is that it very often becomes habit.


I disagree. Why can't he learn to be more ambitious about the very things he desires?

Usually the big obstacle is figuring out WHAT one's passion is, not the attempt to become more ambitious.

I think this is a great description, writer.


I have no idea what you mean, CWMI.

Do you think Mother Theresa was up all the time?

Do you think she was manic?

Do you think she was ambitious?

Think of the ambitious people you know. Are they up all the time?

Not in my world.

Some of the most ambitious people I know are in the ministry field.

They typically have little money or material possessions because that is not what drives them.

They are passionate about helping others in need, here or on another continent.

Many of these people lead deeply fulfilling lives.

Yes, all of this. This is what I mean by ambition. It really has nothing to do with earning money. That would be FS. I never thought FS was particularly important to me, but it has definitely moved up my list since our house has gone into foreclosure and we are now faced with having to find somewhere to live and struggling to make ends meet. But FS is a separate EN altogether. The need for FS could be met without the spouse showing much ambition or passion for what it is that they do.

I think my H is making some headway with the ambition thing. He's starting to think about possibilities, about what he'd like to do. At least he's thinking about what he may be passionate about. He's even considering going back to school. These are some hopeful signs. He's pretty much been sitting in a dead-end cubicle job for the past 10+ years, and grumbling about it on a daily basis, but doing little to nothing to improve the situation. It has made him a very difficult person to admire and respect.

I think I just might do this.

Delta-
I don't call that ambition. I call it integrity.

See, my day job, is that. Simply a job, a tool in which to earn money. I don't want a career with my day job. Infact, I'm counting down the years until I get to retire (and I haven't hit 40 yet.)

That said, I DO take pride in my work, and I want to do the best work that I can. I understand that if I don't do well in my job, I may not have one.

My husband is that SAHP. Being a SAHP was never something he was "ambitious" about. But, he still does an excellent job with our children.

Ok. How do you describe ambition?

Dictionary definitions include:

Ambition

1. an earnest desire for some type of achievement or distinction

2. the object, state, or result desired or sought after

3. desire for work or activity; energy

4. something so desired; goal; aim

Would it be important enough for him to meet this need of yours, for it to cost you his love for you?

Would it be worth it for having this need met, to fill your love bank, for it to empty his?

As a person who has ambition as a high EN, this is how I would define it. It doesn't have to be financial or material goals, but there does have to be some goals and evidence that he's working towards them. I used his non-career as an example since it was the most obvious, but he had no other goals or anything he desired in any other aspect of his life, either.

It will be interesting to hear Dr. Harley's views on this topic.

I've been thinking about this more.

I think your and your husband's behaviors -- taking pride in work, doing an excellent job -- are somewhat ambitious. I say that because your actions are more ambitious than not taking pride or doing a lousy job.

You are motivated by a variety reasons (integrity or keeping your job, for example) to do your job well.

So, like many personality characteristics, one's level of ambition falls on a continuum, no ambition (apathetic, lackadaisical, lazy) on one end and high ambition on another.

I would think that both of you could be motivated to behave more ambitiously, either in the line of work you're doing now or in another line of work or activity that you're more passionate/excited about.

True, some people are self-motivated to be highly ambitious. They have it in them no matter what activity or line of work.

Some are motivated by money, fame, power.

Some are motivated by watching or learning from leaders, bosses or relatives.

With the right motivation, each of our ambition levels could be increased or decreased.

Give me sun, sand, ocean and a beer, and my ambition level plummets. Too much comfort and contentment = lack of ambition on my part.

Um, I quoted and emphasized... Markos posted the transcript, which addressed it directly.

I get it, and I stated before that I really think that the whole ambition thing falls as the Attractive Spouse need, though it is defined here as "physical attractiveness."

I know that one of the things that made me "physically attractive" to FWW, per her explanation, was my arrogance/cockiness/"ambition."

BEHAVIOR does contribute to physical attraction.

Um, I was referring to writer1 asking Dr. Harley to explain the EN for ambition in greater detail.

ETA:

Dr. Harley told me that the EN for PA specifically refers to what somebody looks like on the outside, not their internal (personality) attractiveness.

Although we did discuss that when we're attracted to certain personality traits in a person, we are more attracted to their appearance.

I think that the reason that portion isn't really looked at, is because it would be foolish to address personality - much like the ambition thing, good luck trying to change someone's personality.