haha. Tell a coach, parent, teacher, employer, motivational speaker, counselor, pastor or volunteer coordinator that it's foolish to address the "ambition thing."

See, I actually think physical appearance could be MORE difficult to change than personality traits. I mean, you can dress up all you want, lose weight, exercise, get your hair done but if you're ugly, you're ugly. What happens when a someone has an accident or surgery that leaves them disfigured (ugly scar or something) and their spouse has PA as their #1 EN? What about basic signs of aging - wrinkles, grey hair etc.? Must the wife of a man with a PA EN undergo cosmetic surgery to keep her husband from looking for this in a younger woman? What if he is truly turned off by her appearance, despite whatever efforts she may make to improve it?

At least with personality, that is an aspect which grows throughout your entire lifetime. None of us is the same person we were 20 or 30 years ago. We've matured and we've grown. An ambitious person directs their own growth by actively pursuing their goals. A non-ambitious person grows by whatever way they have drifted by chance. The spouse of a non-ambitious person can influence how that person drifts (1st hand experience with this) but it doesn't replace having their own ambition. IF the non-ambitious person understood that ambition was one of their spouse's top EN's, why couldn't THAT motivate them to develop some ambition?

Harley has definitely said on the boards before now that nobody should have to undergo surgery to meet a need for AS. Just show that they are making the best of what they've got and caring for their spouse in the meantime by staying at a healthy weight and dressing in a way the spouse likes.

Not always a happy habit. Values imposed by others not always good. Some people are ambitious because they can't feel good about themselves unless they're succeeding. Other people become apathetic because they can't cope with failure. Two sides of the same coin.

I find my husband attractive when he talks about flying because he is intrinsically motivated to succeed at this because he ENJOYS it. I wouldn't find him as attractive if he was ambitious, successful but unhappy.

That's my point (though I didn't express it well). It may not always be possible to change your physical appearance enough. Ambition, on the other hand, can be learned. And regarding your next post (which I can't see cause I quoted this one), I think having this particular EN of ambition is different than being happy watching your spouse engage in an activity he/she is passionate about. Most people would enjoy and get caught up in the energy of the spouse's enjoyment of something. But when ambition is an EN, or at least a top EN, you need to see it to feel attracted and when it isn't there, you feel like what has been discribed for other unmet ENs.

True. It wouldn't surprise me if some people were actually turned off by ambition for the above reasons.

I've worked as a nanny for a few families before having my own children, I met a few people who were so desperate to succeed and attain the next step that they were always miserable, always unhappy because someone else was doing slightly better than them. They also tended to treat their children like pets and try to train them to be the same. It turned me right off the idea of ambition.

I want to be with someone who has a passion for and enjoyment of life, who laughs with me and can be happy and feel fortunate for what we have not constantly be craving the next step up. But then thats easy for me to say, my hubby is currently very successful (without having to try too hard) at what he does although its still early days in this career. I have to know that our family is more important to him than his career or achievements though. The flipside of having an ambitious spouse is often that they would be very unwilling to risk losing their job or to put their family first.

Ditto for any value or EN. We can find good and bad in everything.

Some people keep a clean and tidy house because they can't feel good about themselves unless they live orderly. Other people become apathetic because they can't cope with mess and dirt.

Some people exercise, eat healthy, dress to the nines and do hair and make up because they can't feel good about themselves unless they look great. Other people become apathetic because they can't cope with aging.

We could go through the list of ENs and look for negatives.

I'm not really sure why any of that would matter.

Dr. Harley advises us to not judge someone's ENs.

If ambition isn't one of your ENs, that's fine.

Rosy, yeah, it's clear you look negatively at ambition.

Desperation, misery, unhappiness aren't qualities I'd associate with positive ambition, either.


Me too. I'm very happy with my ambitious husband.


Again, me too.

I'm thankful my husband is ambitious and passionate about a quality, well-balanced, fulfilling life.

I think the wide variety of helpers and the wide range of outcomes is just as easily seen to confirm that it is difficult to produce the desired outcome. If it were easy to trigger ambition, every parent, coach and teacher would successfully motivate their children, coaches and students to maximum performance. In fact, results often fall short of expectations. Hence Dr. Harleys statement that ambition is hard to create.

It is like "killer instinct" in sports. Very valuable for a professional athlete to have. Few possess it. Never seen a ballplayer acquire it later in life.

BEHAVIOR can be created. Hopefully feelings follow behavior. But feelings are hard to directly change.

It just seems like a dj to me to tell someone they have to think like you do and want the same things. I think its fine to say these behaviours would make me happy, but not oh yes and you must want to do them for yourself not for me.

How is wanting your spouse to have ambition telling them they have to think like you do and want the same things you do? I'm not saying the person has to be ambitious for more money or ambitious to become president or anything specific at all. Just show some ambition. Show me that you are willing to put in extra effort to achieve something. It's not the specific achievement that matters but the effort put into it. I couldn't stand an independently weatlhy heir of some family fortune that can have anything or pay anyone to do anything he wants done. I need someone who gets up every morning with a purpose, who can set goals and can put energy and effort into working towards them. It's that drive that I desire, not the result. Does that makes sense?

Or, I could fall directly back on what Dr. Harley said, as was quoted from the radio show, by Markos - and it somehow seems to keep floating out like it was neither spoken nor posted.

A good portion of those professions you listed often rely on the sales of snake oil and placebos.

A football coach knows... KNOWS, what drive and ambition is. Drive and ambition is when the best player on the team not only breaks his back in practice very day, he gets "A's" in the classroom. They know what hunger is, it's when the middle-of-the-pack player works himself to puking just to get a spot on the team. They know what ambition is, when the player who never has a chance to see the field outworks every player on the field with 10 times the talent... even though they will NEVER benefit from it themselves.

Some people can be in the position to inspire - but you cannot inspire what does not exist in some people. For some people, it's just not there. For some people, happiness isn't in drive and ambition - it's in a glass of lemonade and a sunset on the porch.

No, it cannot be taught, and it is foolish to think you can. <---caught, red texted.

It is a disrespectful judgment; you are telling them what should be important to them, and how they should act to prove that it is important.

In fact, you go about explaining it in exactly a DJ manner;

In that radio clip, Dr. Harley said ambition is a difficult characteristic to create in somebody.

He didn't say it cannot be taught.

He didn't say it is foolish to think it can be taught. (emphasis yours)

As some matter of fact.

Talk about a disrespectful judgment, HHH. Another one being that the PROfessions I listed rely on the sales of snake oils and placebos. Really?

Again, I'd be interested to hear what Dr. Harley has to say about this topic, and I look forward to asking him when we speak again, probably next week.

I disagree with your OPINION that ambition can't be taught. We'll have to agree to disagree about our OPINIONS.

Here's just one quick snippet I pulled from dozens of articles on the subject; this one falls in line with my belief. I'm sure you could similarly point to articles that back up your assertion. Since this is a MB site, I'm interested to hear what Dr. Harley has to say.

It struck me that somebody still needs to build the porch and make the lemonade ... or pay someone else to do it for them.

You can DJ anyone you like as long as that person isn't your spouse and you don't need them to be in love with you.

Really.

Motivational speakers?

They rely on psychological bias to sell their books and programs, not actual psychology.

Does what they sell work? Yes, for the people who buy it and believe it, it usually works. So do diets and/or any other generalized behavioral program, so long as the person believes in it.

What people don't realize is that it is their own action, and not the "Dream it, Do it, Believe it!!!!!!!" programs that make the changes in their life.

It is the fear of failure, not a drive to succeed. That is the snake oil; that the person could succeed without the coach, motivational speaker, counselor, etc - their own beliefs and actions are what heals them, not the next Tony Little book.

And no, it is not said nor implied that Dr. Harley says it is foolish to think ambition can be taught... however, if it has to be taught then it is best avoided; we don't educate our spouses, that is a love buster.

Isn't MB a behavioral program, a program specifically designed to change people's behavior in the relationship department?

Yes, it is.

Of course it's each of our own actions that change our marriages, our lives. (Similarly, I don't know of anyone who expects success on a certain diet by "thinking and believing" in it.)

It is not enough to simply think nor believe that the MB program can improve our marriages. We have to do it. We have to follow the program. We in fact learn how to better meet our spouse's ENs. We are taught through a series of books, articles, radio programs, coaching, etc.

I for one don't follow the MB program out of a fear of failure and most certainly do follow MB out of a drive to succeed. Like many others here, I am eager, enthusiastic, engergized and passionate about having a successful marriage.

You said :


I'm not relying on my own beliefs and actions to have a great marriage. I'm receiving guidance from the MB staff who coaches, counsels, and yes, I'd say even speaks to us motivationally. In my interactions with Steve and Bill Harley, their words are motivational in nature to encourage me toward certain behaviors. They speak in front of groups, televised and radio audiences for the purpose of motivating people to improve their marriages.

So in your eyes does that make Dr. Harley and his staff snake oil salesmen?

Harley lists the 10 most important ENs, explains them and then goes on to say "once you have identified each other's most important emotional needs, your next step is to learn how to meet them. I've written several Q&A columns to help you achieve that objective." These include a series of How To articles.

Our difference of opinion is whether ambition -- drive, eagerness, energy, passion, aspiration -- can be learned. You think it can't while I think it can. Dr. Harley says it's difficult, and I agree. I haven't read where he said it can or can't be done. My belief is that with the right set of motivations, most people can become more driven, eager, energized and passionate about certain activities. Said another way, I believe people can learn to become more ambitious.

Actually, quite a bit like cognitive behavioral therapy.


Exactly why are you trying to argue or explain the program? Because I said that it is a disrespectful judgement to expect ot educate your spouse to be ambitious?

Begging your pardon, but it was you who brought non-MB ideas to the table to embolden your position, remember?

"Tell that to x,y,z..."

What was stated, right from the get-go was that it was better to meet other needs, than to try to make a non-ambitious spouse become ambitious.

Do you deny that? Was it not transcribed from the broadcast?

Let's look at it again:


By all means, if you think you can do better "creating ambition" in your spouse than a PHD in Psychology with decades of experience, have at it. To do so you are still educating your spouse, and their energy would be wasted when they could just divert it to meeting other emotional needs.





Nice try, but no.

I am not putting a PHD in Psychology in the same boat as "Coaches, counselors, and motivational speakers." I am not putting a Master's in Psychology in that boat, either (and I'll take a SWAG that Steve H. is inches from a PHD) Whatever your point is, this isn't going to make it. In fact, I find the comparison rather insulting.

While Dr. Harley would well enough be versed in psychological bias to sell a ton of books full of crap were he to decide to do it, instead he has put together a program based on real behavior psychology.

It was a nice red herring, but no. You are awarded no points on that one.


He also states that your energy is best spent meeting a few of the top needs, not all 10. It's even stated that sometimes you only have to meet 2 needs really well to create and maintain a feeling of romantic love.





Wrong again. Our difference of opinion is if that need is one that a person has, if it is worth the risk to have it met.

I say no. I say that it is a Disrespectful Judgment waiting to happen, and a waste of time when your spouse could be spending their energy meeting other needs.

*I stand corrected - previous comment is in conflict. Can ambition be "taught?" Sure - but it's difficult, as stated per Dr. Harley. And his recommendation stands along with that statement.*