Just curious what the answer to this dilemma is then. Let's say one of my H's top EN's is A (it is). He loves cuddling and snuggling and being touched. Let's say I have an aversion to being touched (I do) and I really need my personal 18 inches (18 feet, my H likes to joke). How does his need for A get met without me having to do something I hate?

And you are absolutely sure, that this is - hands down - the one and only thing that is causing that?

You've gone through the little checklist;

1) 20+ hours of UA time to make the spark, 15+ to maintain
2) Avoiding all Love Busters
3) Meeting the most important emotional needs expertly
4) Redoing LB/EN questionnaires if 2 and 3 are deficient

Have you first eliminated those variables before you settled on this?


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8120_differences.html

"I know this is patently unfair. It is just how I feel."

Ok. Fair enough. You want your perspective to be acknowledged, and you are "just being honest."

But since when does "how we feel" lead us to the absolute best decisions ever?

How did chasing "how you feel" work out for you ladies so far? Following "how I felt" didn't work out so well for me.

"How I feel" never provides comfort to my patients...

Oh, and then there is that whole other thing... your husband, and "how he feels."

Though, you know, what's more important is "how you feel."

No clue. Not your husband. You should ask him.

Maybe it could be met with affirming comments, and/or small physical acts of affection.

Maybe you could follow the "willingness to desire" model to address your aversion to touch? Are you averse to touch with your children, too? Or is it a specialized aversion to men? Adults? Just your husband?

Or, maybe you should focus on other needs that he has in his Top 5.


Thing funny thing is, though, every time this is stated, you flip it back.

"Well, if he can't do this for me, why should I do that for him?"

Tit-for-tat.

That is about as good as sacrifice.

Okay, I'll try to answer these.

It's all adults. I don't have trouble being affectionate with my 2-year-old at all. The older kids are pretty much beyond the age when they want to be affectionate with us. But I've always been uncomfortable with physical affection from other adults. I'm not a casual hugger. I'll hug when someone hugs me, but it makes me very uncomfortable.

And no, I'm not talking tit for tat at all. I actually do try to meet my H's EN's, even the one for A, though it's not a need for me and not something I'm entirely comfortable with.

Of course, I have to guess at what my H's EN's are based on what I know about him, since he doesn't generally tell me what his needs are. We filled out the ENQ about 6 months ago, but later, he admitted that he filled it out based on what he thought I wanted him to answer and not on what his actual EN's were. I've since asked him to fill it out again honestly, but he hasn't done it. He isn't very interested in MB, so there's not much I can do about that. I could fill out the ENQ again myself, but I've already filled it out twice. The first one my H never read, and the 2nd time, when we filled them out together, we only got halfway through them before he lost interest.

HHH,

You sound angry. Of course my feelings aren't of the utmost importance...that is why I'm here.

Prior to MB, I would have denied any feelings at all...so they wouldn't be addressed.

This is where I am stuck with radical honesty. My DH would respond similar to you...and then where am I? Still out of love.

I absolutely have not eliminated all those other variables. But then, I never said it was only a lack of passion and ambition that was destroying my love for my H. It is in all likelihood only one factor in the equation.

1. UA time is there, but it is inconsistent and tends to be lumped together mostly on the weekends. We do have a "date night" every Friday or Saturday.

2. Tons of LB's and AO's on both our parts. It seems all we do is fight much of the time, usually about money and the current crisis with our uncertain living situation.

3. Meeting EN's expertly. Hard to do, as explained above, since my H doesn't really buy into MB much and when he did fill out the ENQ, he didn't do it honestly (by his own admission) and he never even finished reading mine.

4. I'm more than willing to fill out the questionnaires again, but my H not so much, and filling them out over and over again by myself when he doesn't even look at them seems pretty pointless.

I know we're failing on a lot of different levels. I just don't know what to do about it. I feel like I've been fighting this battle by myself for a long time and I'm just getting tired and worn down. I'm now having problems with being O&H because whenever I try, my H gets defensive and depressed. He doesn't want to hear that everything isn't perfect. I actually practice having conversations with him when he isn't around, trying to find some way to talk to him about things that won't involve any LB's, but I rarely have the actual conversation with him, because no matter how I say something these days, it usually leads to a fight.

Feelings matter, HHH.

In fact, Harley's concepts are totally based on them.

What is the Love Bank about if not our feelings and emotions?

I agree with sunnydaze, you do sound angry.

If you look at this so black and white, then you'll have families living in bug-infested squallor all over the place because I'm sure there are few people who actually love doing dishes. No, I don't enjoy doing dishes but I understand they need to be done. If, in addition to the obvious reasons, doing dishes will ALSO put some deposits into my spouses LB, the pros start to outweigh the cons a little bit. Throw a dishwasher into the mix and suddenly, dishes aren't that bad at all and I'm happy to do them. There's no sacrifice here since the dishes had to be done anyway.

I think that's how the POJA is supposed to work. In writer's example with affection, fulfilling her H's ENs involves doing something that she is averse to, much the way I might be averse to doing the dishes. Aversion comes up all the time in the SF threads and MB has ways to deal with that, so why not with other ENs as well? First, by understanding the nature of the EN, that doing X will make LB deposits, it can change how you think about it. At the very least, it can help you to explore why you may be averse to doing it so you can figure out how to overcome that aversion. Again, you aren't sacrificing anything. Instead, you are recognizing a way that your spouse would like his/her ENs met and learning ways you can do it without the aversion or sacrifice.

BTW, I had a friend who actually threw out all her dirty dishes rather than cleaning them....lol. She was single at the time.

Don't laugh. I'll cook something in tinfoil (or at least line the pot with it) rather than scrub a pot!

Not always true. Since I had no drive, I never realized how I was still hurting my ex even though I offered SF often. It's not jsut the "S" but also the "Fulfillment" and some of that comes from being desired. You can do the dishes without desire. You can't always fulfill your spouse if you don't desire him.
Disclaimer: I somehow jumped in the middle of this thread, and need to go back and read from the beginning.

I am still working through this thread, but this is such a good topic! I have a friend who is frustrated that her husband doesn�t have as much ambition as she would like. I think this stems partially from them being a "traditional" family, she coming from middle class and he from the projects. So he's happy with their low-income life and she's dissatisfied.

Watching them, I decided I would not fault husband for his lack of ambition because it seemed like they would have been happier if she would have just got off his back. So when I saw the same thing in my ex, I worked hard to create the life I wanted, regardless of his declining earning potential. But guess what? They are still married and I�m not. My ex eventually quit his job and ran up massive debt. His explanation to me as to why he was continuing this downward spiral? He said, �I know you�ll do whatever it takes to keep this family afloat.� And he was right! At the time I was working 3 jobs (military plus 2 others) just to keep food on the table.

Ambition is important. A desire to provide for your family is important.

Ok� I�m done ranting and will go back and finish reading the thread!

DTC

One thing Dr. Harley recommends when a person wants an EN enthusiastically met by his/her spouse (especially when the spouse has an aversion to it or it ranks as a low-priority) is to create pleasurable conditions that allow the spouse to enjoy the experience effortlessly.

The more pleasure and joy the averse spouse has, the greater desire he/she will have to repeat the experience.

Not sure how that translates into making a pleasurable, effortless condition out of changing a dirty diaper, though. I guess it comes down to setting up the best conditions possible to motivate someone toward a desired behavior.

Like when I bake with my kids, I set out all the ingredients, mixing bowls and utensils in advance to make it more effortless for them.

Oh wow! I used to feel this way too! I sure wish I could explain it! Kids were never a problem, but adult touch made me very uncomfortable. Not just male touch, though that was worse than female hugs. I wish I could tell you how this changed because I love hugs now. But I remember incidences where people were trying to just be friendly and touch my arm as they talk and I yanked away with such an aversion. I remember thinking as I started my career, �this is how people relate, and if I want them to accept me I have to learn to get over this aversion.� But that doesn�t tell one HOW to actually get over it. I especially hated men to be near me, or worse, to touch me, unless it was someone who had been a friend for a very long time like my ex or my best friend (who, in college was a guy).

Fast forward 15 y ears later, and I love hugs, whether from men or women. I love snuggling. The only thing I still don�t like is when a guy I�m dating tries to introduce intimate touch before I�m ready, but I think most of us are like that. I eat up hugs like they are candy.

Maybe it was result of my healing process?

Since you dislike being touched, can your H's EN for A be met when you touch him? Do you have an aversion to rubbing his back, for example?

Several of Dr. Harley's suggestions regarding Affection don't involve physical touch. He says "It is our way of telling people that we care for them and that we will be there for them when they need us."

Examples

-Tell her that you love her while you are having breakfast together.
-Tell her you love her before you leave for work.
-Call her during the day to ask how she is doing and that you love her.
-After work, call her before you leave to tell her when you will be home, and tell her you love her.
-Buy her flowers on the way home at least once a week, with a card that tells her you love her.
-When you arrive home from work ... spend a few minutes talking to her about how her day went. Don't do anything else before you have given her your undivided attention.
-Tell her that you love her as you are having dinner together.
-Help her clear off the table and wash and dry the dishes with her.

Writer, I think that you have actually brought up the one thing that you really need to look at before anything else; that you are not meeting UA time. That is the core of the whole MB philosophy, so if you aren't doing that, it ain't gonna work.

Delta:

Your suggestions are not affection. Affection has to be physical in nature. Everything that you described is effectively another need or love language. I have the same problem, my second need is affection, and my wife does NOT like adualt affection, she does howeverlike affection that is for the family, and thus is not going to be sexual in nature.

Why would a person actually have a love language that is not physical touch, unless there was some dysfunction in the past.

Cemar, read this:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3305_aff.html

Affection does not have to be physical in nature. Dr. Harley states that hugs, a back rub, holding hands, flowers, an "I love you note," etc. all qualify as fulfilling the EN for affection. Some things under affection are indeed physical and some are not.

And there are many reasons that some people don't like to be touched other than a dysfunctional past. My mother said I didn't like to be held or touched much from the time I was a baby. I was born that way. Everyone is different, and everyone expresses (and likes to receive) affection in different ways.

writer, thanks for letting cemar know that the examples I listed were straight from Dr. Harley.

Harley's 10 ENs are much more comprehensive than Chapman's Love Languages.

writer1:

My LL is physical touch. My #2 need is affection. Anything that is NOT physical in nature would NOT qualify as affection. Hand holding would reult in love bank deposits, the rest of those items would be appreciated, but would result in no love bank deposits, and over time, would actually result in NEGATIVE love bank desposits. Why should the person with the need be asked to change their need? It just seems that us HD people are being asked to Lower or change our needs, because our LD spouses essentially have no way of meeting our needs because their bodies effectively don't work correctly. They don't have the chemicals to feel like us HD people do.