I know the constant blame-shifting, justification of lies, vain and selfish needs that are supposed to be met according to the princess.

Ya know, the ones you would love to fill for her, her never having to work, the gifts and roses every day, being the man who allways gets all the juices flowing. The white knight in the fantasy. All the stuff that gets turned around untill your painted as controlling, and the respect she once had gets described as intimidation, and she wants to get out.

Instead of handling these fears that are inevitable signs of our humanity, age, death, and so on, things get twisted untill the authority present, is now to blame.

Look at Adam in the garden of Eden, when he ate of the apple, and God asked him why, he said, "Its this woman you gave me". He blamed the authority.

Adam would rather die than be separated from Eve, so he followed her. What did the serpent play on in the woman?, her need for relationship, and human vanity. Things that as men we marvel at in women, as they want to have the best, and encourage us to have it all too. But its important to remember, women are wired for relationship, and that also is part of the gift we have when the relationship is good. Us men need that too, relationship that is.

Some fears of loss we can't help them with, and that is just reality, and the way it is supposed to be, them and there relationship with God and truth being the big "stick". The only stick we have a right to control, and a responsibility to also before God, is the ones that protect us and our marriage and/or children. Personal accountability, integrity, value that comes from a relationship with spiritual truth that goes beyond, is up to God and the individual.

Thats my story, and I'm stickin to it.. So far thats the best of my understanding. Its a relationship with truth, and the removal of fear through it.

well its been about 4 days since Ive been on here so i will give an update. My WW is currently living with a friend of hers and is having no contact with om and almost no contact with me and the boys. She is at a state where she wants to start missing the family which she not been able to do yet. I don't know where this will go, but i believe her there is no contact and she has free reign right now to do whatever. Her friend is not there much and my wife took her bible and the counselor info to take and start studying. I had my first trip to the counselor yesterday which was basically giving my story and WW seemed to be interested in how it went. I don't know when she will want to come home or if she ever will, but that's our current situation. Maybe seems like some progress.

lost - That doesn't sound too bad to me. You have the additional influence of a higher power to help guide her back to you and your family. That's a good thing. It feels like progress to me, but I'm not living your situation.

lost, how do you know she's NC with OM?

well to be honest i dont. i have no way of controlling this girl anymore and she is basically living on her own. I ask for brutal honesty and really cant do anything to her if she is seeing him. I feel that i have no choice in the matter but to believe her. That aside not sure what to believe. I believe she is telling the truth at the moment and she seems to be making the right choices in trying to stay away from everyone to work things out in her head. She was asking me opinions of what she was trying to do and if i had problems with anything.

It does sound like some progress, I imagine she must be wondering what is wrong with her if she doesn't miss her family. Maybe she is recognizing this is part of an identity crisis within herself, and not about you.
If this is true, then its a giant step towrds getting her home, but it still will be awhile until you guys figure out what hole she fell through to get to where she got to. She will have to recognize the hole for what is was, and you both will have to work on the solutions.

I'm gonna tell you a story from a very awesome Pastor in my Church, that happened a few years ago before my wife relapsed back into drinking.

I had left the house in the late 90s. First there was the issue of me losing my job because I was getting really worn out working day and night. In the day a high tech job that took me 10 hrs/day round trip, and at night working on cars, to make ends meet.

The high tech jobs had an opening that I had been waiting for, it would pay enough so we could float the bills, and spend time together, it seemed like I was a shoe-in, even all the guys at work figured it was so. My kids thought finally Daddy will get what he worked so hard for, and we can have what we need. My very needed ship was about to come in, and everything I promised all the time at work was for, was going to come true.

I Didn't get the promo, got really depressed, and missed time at work, and eventually got canned, it was so black for me when I didn't get the job, and I was so tired. I don't blame them, but nevertheless it was bad.

So 3 months later, the census bureau was hiring, and my wife and I both got hired for temp positions. They paid really well, but it was only temporary. I was at a crossroads, I could not do the mechanic work because of my age and physical condition, and I was the only breadwinner, because my wife was not able to get a part time job, and come home later, without making inapropiate friends. I know, this was part of her princess thing I put up with for years, but this was more than we ever brought in together as a family, and it was time to decide what to do with the money.

At the census job I had a rude awakining. Here was very unskilled labor, making $12 an hour, doing very little. I was appalled, and reintroduced to our tax dollars at work, I was way overqualified, and this made me think of how foolish I was.

First and formost, I went to my wife and said, we only have this income for a short time, and if i am going to get some kinda job after, I had better look into finishing my MSCES, so I could get a Job at a help desk. The pro contractors at the census I worked with assured me that this was the way to go, and maybe they could help me if I was certified, and it was nessesary. I approached my wife with this proposal, and that we should pool the money, and pay someone for training, and she flatly refused, stating her daughter was turning 16, and she was going to spend the money hiring a band, and having a blow-out sweet 16 party, and she had waited to long to have money. This when the truth hit home, my health did not matter, that was my problem.

Then, make things worse, I started to bond with a girl at work, an young women who flirted with me very brazenly. Typical women wondering why her BF would have a child out of wedlock with her, but would not marry her. Both of us realized it would not go very far, and had the chance to go farther, but we knew it would make us dirt, and neither wanted to lower ourselves. I think the infatuation took us both by surprise, and I blame my own weak state for it, and it ended quickly, there was to much at stake. It never went farther that a weak EA.

At that time though, it realy brought to light the state of my value I had with my wife, and how bad it had become. I had not hidden how involved I was with this young lady emotionally, and shared it with evreybody, talked about how impressed I was with her, and how she wanted to get married to the father her child. Its like all inappropiate relationships, and I was allready weak. Sure what was happening with her was rough, but I had lost the objectivity that I had allways had before, when talking to these women. I recognized the attraction that was built, and yet my wife would not budge on the financial issues, and I could not keep up the pace, I would literally die, I almost did a few times before, and had come close a few times after. Talk about being a mule, and my yoke became one of iron, as my spirit was breaking, broken, broke. All because she expected me to make a million, and I was foolish enough to think I should..

Well I moved into my single, very Godly, recently abandoned and divorced friends house to sort things out. After two weeks I came home..blah..blah .. its not important.

During this time I got a request by an associate Pastor who was a long time friend of ours to come in and see him. Now this is/was very stout and disciplined teacher but intelligent and a gentle servant. He knew my wife had a past drinking problem, and he asked me if she was drinking,(She wasn't that I know of, at least not around me), and all the relevent questions too. Then he said.

"Last year I almost ended my marriage. One day my wife and I looked at each other and I said,'I hate you', she said 'Good, I hate you too'. Then we got on our knees and asked God to heal us. Now we are more in love than ever"

I thought about how I had left my pregnant wife and 2 yr old daughter 14 years ago because her drinking was so bad, and 2 years later recovered because she stopped drinking, and felt it was Gods hand, and how it felt to love someone more than before even knowing thier weakness, and faults, and agreeing with God that was how it was supposed to be.

But I was still full of my own issues that were real to me, and had built up through the years, never being dealt with correctly or completly. I had asked her to go to financial couselling with the pastor there in charge of that, but she wanted it all now, and would not work with reality. The fact that she was stubborn and didn't care how done I was with this struggle, and how in need I was to accept there would be no windfall of money, so we could survive, hurt me to the core. I had allways worked hard, even having damaged legs, and being an insulin dependant diabetic at 27. It was who I was, and who I am, and how I served God and my family. To be as run down and sick as I was, and the party she wanting to throw,(Don't get me wrong, I wanted to do it), being more important than our future, woke me up and scared me. I still think I was the more level-headed and realistic of both of us. But I know also I was scared and hurt also, and my heart was hardened out of fear. So we kept on struggling.

But what the Pastor said has allways stuck with me, how he and his wife were able to be so honest with each other about how they felt. Many times I think my wife and I had prayed to the same God with our words but did not see him the same. We hadn't agreed on what God wanted from us, and how he was going to work a plan for us either. It might as well have been different Gods entirely.

I don't know what the specific answer is for you LostM, I believe that is and allways has been for you and Her to discover together before God. I also think that its important that you agree what God wants for you, and has allready given you, to bond you together stronger than any other. Having the strong Christian support you have, and what I read between the lines of the strong work ethic you have personally, I thought my story might help.

God is in the restoration and recovery business, and hates what has happened to both of you, and his institution of marriage. I pray you and your wife will get on your knees together and find the answers that fufill you both, better than you ever dreamed, because it is possible. I know that is a classic Christian canned answer, but it doensn't make it any less true.

Does she have the book "His needs, Her needs"? It might help her to understand herself.

How depressed is she? Her self-image must be in the toilet for her not to miss the kids or you.

She took it hard, I hope she gets the right help, and finds her way back to you guys soon.

Thanks for the story, i feel there are similarities here as i work my primary job and im always looking for ways to make extra money in evenings. During the summer i have a mowing business that brings in a lot of extra money. This year however i may lose a big contract that will hurt. I limit this job to one night a week however cuz i always hate to be away from the fam.

I don't know what state she is in at the moment. She told me she wanted to stay away so she could miss "us". I felt a few days ago before she wanted to stay away that she was extremely stressed being around the kids when she came over to see them away for school. I could tell at that moment that she wanted to be away from the kids as well. I went by the friends house on the way to work today and our truck was there in the drive. I put a few bucks in the console and sent her a text that i put some money in there for gas and she told me she appreciated it.

She has been looking for a job as she has no money except for the little Ive been giving her. She is looking into banking as that is what she was doing 10 years ago. Will this help her to regain some identity? She told me she wanted to help pay with the huge credit card bill she lied to me about.

I have tried to get her to pray with me, but she will never pray just wants me to do it. I think she is lost at heart and that is what she is supposed to be working on while she is away. She really wont communicate with me on how shes feeling inside. She probably doesn't want to continue to hurt me as she hasn't made much progress yet. She did let me know that she was having a bad day a few days ago and communicated some about that, but no specifics.

Im getting stressed out as im playing the role of provider, father and mother at the moment. keeping house up, laundry, bills, kids lunches and breakfast, and babysitters. Luckily there has been so many people looking after us that we have had dinners provided by so many.

What does it take for a ww to see what she is doing? There may be progress coming, but dang. I think im going to arrange a night for myself or me and a friend this weekend.

Hey Lost,

Whatever you can do to accelerate her "missing" you guys would be a plus. Are the kids calling her to say goodnight, etc? Might plan a family outing this weekend and invite her along.

Sorry to hear that you're bearing the burden of recovery plus all the routine day-to-day things.

If she's telling you about her bad day, that's a good thing--try to have some empathy (I know, I know) and just listen without offering advice or how to fix it. Try to get to where she'll talk to you instead of OM when she's down. If you really want to be brave, and if you think you can do it, give her a call one evening and just ask how her day was.

Fogbabble.

Excuse used to try to leverage wiggle room.

My own FWW used that line, and the night she used that line, she spent the entire night texting the OM.

Don't buy it, it's bull crap.

It may be crap, but im working with what ive got. I just got a message that she was doing better today and that would not be gone 4ever. That was one thing i asked last night that i got no reply to. That had me worked today. i was glad to see she was where she said she was this morning so there is a sign of hope. I thought about seeing if she wanted to do something this weekend, but at the same time id rather her stay away and get stuff worked out in her head instead of getting her fix on the kids and leaving again.

Hmm, good point, wouldn't have thought of it like that. Why don't y'all still do something (w/o wife) so that she can see what she is missing and wonders why she didn't get an invite. Even better would be to include her parents so that she'll hear through the grapevine that she missed out.

Or is that vindictive?

NW8900 - Hmm...I don't think haveing the kids spend time with their family and having a great time is vindictive. I actually believe that's a good thing. I'm trying to figure out what activity DS and I will do this weekend. Our WWs need to see that life does go on without them and that we're adjusting to a potential new reality. Personally, I'm thinking DS and I might head down to the other house Saturday afternoon, if I can't find anything better to do. That knocks out a couple things - I need to take a look at the place and make sure it's okay. It'll also give DS and I quality time without the added WW complication, ergo less stress. I could always come back on Sunday and then immediately get his bike and head towards the park. WW is free to tag along, but it's her choice.

There was a couple of things that used to bug me about my wives behavior. One of them that I think was the most dangerous was when I would challange her about maybe a certain behavior, and she would say, "Thats between God and I", and thats a tough one for me to buy, because to me, God see all and is everywhere present, and I think he will be there with us too as we work out our problems together.

If marriage is Gods institution, then he has given us the means to maintain it also. I quit drinking and drugging at 17 not just because it was wrong, expensive and illegal, but because of the consequences I saw that it brought to others around me, and I didn't want those consequences. I wanted a life. I have come to believe God was in those consequences, even if at the time I had pushed God aside. I was not an active Christian then, but I saw the salvation in avoiding the actions that brought about dire consequences.

When my wife told me that Jesus had delivered her from drinking, I had a problem with it because as far as I knew, once delivered it was permanent. she continued to fall, and it was hard for me to understand how her faith could be so weak, untill I realized it was by her rules that she made God serve her.

Thats kinda what I was driving at LostM, who is the God she follows and believes in? A lot of people struggle with God thinking he is this taskmaster who doesn't care about them. They are good people because God will smite them and they will lose all thier freinds, they never take all thier needs to Him, or beleive that that He cares how they feel. Thats not true. But God doesn't change reality to suit our feelings, if he did, the world and truth would crumble.

So when we prayed together, there was still some separation between us because we were two different people, and understood God differently according to our individual needs. In my thoughts it was a way for us to come together and seek guidance, and maybe correction if nessesary, for our hearts. Out hearts being a combo of emotions and mindset, hopes and dreams, for a good future, here on earth and after we are gone.

When she would not pray with me it was a sign that she was running away from God, and becuase her God had told her that she could keep falling and hurting herself through the denial and indulgence of whatever she felt, and the consequences of life were handing out different results, therefore she abandoned Him. He never abandoned her, she just would not agree with Him.

Maybe this is a time for her to finnally come to trust Him, and for you both to have a deeper and stronger relationship through God. I know those fences he puts around us that we sometimes think are binding us, are really protection from ourselves. Lets pray she sees that and that you can both work towards understanding what happened, and how to restore your marriage. Its not slavery, and the MB tools teach us that.

I guess I was posing the question on whether Lost should bother inviting his wife or not and, if by not doing so, would that be wrong? Probably not, I think. Sometimes it's nice to have a break from the drama and to associate with people that don't have a lot of baggage attached to them at the moment.

So, (AndyM) are you going to invite WW to tag along? It sounds like your son would have a good time.

Good points CP. The counselor has this approach as well. He commented lets get things right between me and god and WW and god and then work on marriage. This is what Ive been wanting and working towards since exposure.

At this point i dont think me rubbing it in to her that the kids were having a good time with grandma and grandpa and me would be good given the history of WW and GM. I think it would just piss her off again. Trying to get her past that so she can reconcile with them as well. i want to do something fun with them this weekend just me and the boys so she can miss out on our family fun.

just talked to her and she has a dr appointment tomorrow with annual dr and asked her if she would ask him if there could be some hormone issues going on with her, being that she has had 4 kids and on depression meds. she said that she would. Ive been trying to get something like this checked out and she has been very against this, but she seemed like she was more willing to talk to him about this today. Maybe there is something good going on right now.

How long has she been on anti-depression meds? Prescribed by a family doctor or a psychiatrist?

Depression is a nasty bish, my wife's been living with the ups and downs for many years.

Food for thought, and I don't blame you at all, but that might have been a real LB for her to hear that. I mention it because I said the same thing once (thinking the exact same thing as you) and months later she brought it up in an argument.

well i don't think that would be fuel for a fight. I have never got that feeling even when she was shooting me down about getting it checked. More like "i don't feel like its an issue and i don't need to get it checked" to, now she will ask him if there should be concerns and can we look into it. If its fuel for a fight then bring it on. better to fight and work it out then run off to OM. Fighting use to be a common thing in our marriage, but since we have kids we dont fight that much anymore. But i must say the last six months i see behavior out of her more like before kids. (i mean with her mood swings that is). More reason for her to get checked over.