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#2486816 03/10/11 04:39 PM
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I just received my copy of buyers, renters & freeloaders! grin

Isabeau #2486845 03/10/11 05:39 PM
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Okay...I'm in the middle of chapter 3, and Dr. H had a dating service for 5 years! I wonder if enough of us begged, if he would create a Help Meet II? grin

Instead of a date being a test of compatibility, it became an opportunity to improve their ability to care for others.

I encouraged each member to regard his or her very first date with someone as an opportunity to gather data on the subject of care. They were to try to discover what made the other person happy and what made the other person unhappy. I suggested questions to ask regarding their date's most enjoyable memories and most dreadful experiences. The answers would help them learn what they could do to make the person happy and avoid making the person unhappy. After the first date, they would try to put into practice what they had learned about caring for that person.

[Linked Image from websmileys.com]


Isabeau #2683178 11/15/12 12:56 PM
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I just bought a copy on amazon for $1.99.
I've read HNHN and SAA.
Looking forward to reading this one.

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Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders is one of my favorite Dr. H books.

Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Okay. My copy of Buyers Renters and Freeloaders just arrived in the mail.
I read Chapter 1 and got to Chapter 2, page 17 The Freeloaders Agreement.
My first thought was that Brenda's letter to Frank is very similar to my ex wife when she essentially told me she "had to be free," and I wonder if people in affairs or marital state of withdrawal automatically meet the definition of a freeloader

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Oh yes, people in affairs absolutely meet the definition of freeloader! Somewhere there is a post here where someone (Pepperband, IIRC) detailed some information from Dr. Harley about how people move from one state to the other. A Buyer who becomes an addict is now not willing to do what it takes to fix up the marriage, because there is now something more important than the marriage, so he/she is no longer a Buyer. After awhile, the betrayed Buyer spouse may switch to Renter for their own safety and protection, because it's not safe to follow the Buyer's agreement perpetually while your spouse is a Freeloader and an addict.


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Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
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If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Originally Posted by Pepperband
A discussion about one of my favorite Harley books !!!!!


Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders

Quote
Freeloader is unwilling to put much effort into the care of his or her partner in a romantic relationship. He or she does only what comes naturally and expects only what comes naturally. It's like a person who tries to live in a house without paying rent or doing anything to improve it unless the person is in the mood to do so.

Renter is willing to provide limited care as long as it's in his or her best interest. The romantic relationship is considered tentative, so the care is viewed as short-term. It's like a person who rents a house and is willing to stay as long as the conditions seem fair, or until he or she finds something better. The person is willing to pay reasonable rent and keep the house clean but is not willing to make repairs or improvements. It's the landlord's job to keep the place attractive enough for the renter to stay and continue paying rent.

Buyer is willing to demonstrate an extraordinary sense of care by making permanent changes in his or her own behavior and lifestyle to make the romantic relationship mutually fulfilling. Solutions to problems are long-term solutions and must work well for both partners because the romantic relationship is viewed as exclusive and permanent. It's like a person who buys a house for life with a willingness to make repairs that accomodate changing needs, painting the walls, installing new carper, replacing the roof, and even doinf some remodeling so that it can be comfortable and useful.



Quote
Renters believe Our relationship is temporary. You may be right for me today and wrong for me tomorrow.

Buyers believe We are together for life.

Renters believe Our relationship should be fair. What I get should balance what I give.

Buyers believe We both contribute whatever it takes to make our relationship successful.

Renters believe As needs change, the relationship may end if needs are difficult to meet.

Buyers believe As needs change, we will make adjustments to meet new needs.

Renters believe Criticism may prompt me to change if it's worthwhile for me to do so.

Buyers believe Criticism indicates a need for change.

Renters believe Sacrifice is reasonable as long as it's fair.

Buyers believe Sacrifice is dangerous and to be avoided.

Renters believe Short-term fixes are fine.

Buyers believe long-term solutions are necessary.


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According to Harley

most happily married couples have worked their way up from Freeloaders to Renters and finally to Buyers.

He says the problem arises when partners do not eventually become Buyers.


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Some more Willard to chew on:

"The real commitment of marriage is not a commitment to stay regardless of how you are treated. It's a commitment to care for each other regardless of the circumstances you find yourselves in."

also....

"Marriage means that each spouse is commited to make a GREATER effort to care for each other than they were making BEFORE marriage, a GREATER effort to meet each other's intimate needs."

really something to think about for all of us ....


Quote
... which brings us to POJA

which is adopting the Buyer's strategy

means you must consider both your interests ~and~ your partner's interests

up to the point of bilateral enthusiastic agreement

which means NO ONE sacrifices their happiness for the other's .... you seek mutual happiness


Quote
The good doctor says that couples who do not practice POJA skills gradually develop incompatable lifestyles....


Quote
Think of POJA as the ~Holy Grail~ for creating a marriage of mutual compatibility

and enthusiastic support for major decisions implies a respect for the long-term happiness of both partners

this does not mean compromise is not to be found ... but it must be enthusiastic and genuine ... which eliminates sacrifice which is a disingenuous method of manipulating one's spouse

every sacrifice we ask of our partner or of ourselves is a step ~away~ from a mutually enjoyable relationship

think of the relationship ~itself~ as a third person in the marriage ... and choosing what is best for the relationship instead of what is best for only one partner

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Link to Pepperbrand thread about BRF in Marriage 101 forum:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2332882&page=1

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Well I finished Chapter 2 and I am convinced that my ex wife did have a renter mentality.
She left twice before having her affair and came back each time after a few months.
And she did tell me that she never should have married because she is a "free spirit"

Of course, I perhaps could have swayed her if I learned about MB and plan A before her affair???


I also really like the 4 ways we classify people from love to hate and how Dr Harley talked about improving the people in his dating service and how his process resulting in many marriages.

I find it similar to Dale Carnegies book

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Are all people in love also "in the fog?"

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Here is a good example of a couple that went from Buyers to Renters during and after divorce. (last few pages of thread):

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2089025#Post2089025

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Originally Posted by Jedi_Knight
Are all people in love also "in the fog?"

I don't think being in love necessarily brings about "being in the fog." It's that logical plus emotional concept. If one has few logical reasons and mostly emotional reasons for their relationship, they may be in the fog. Affairs are illogical because at least one of them is already married. All the rationalization used to try to "make it right" are illogical. However, if two people are in love with each other and both have a lot to offer and both are buyers, then they aren't "foggy." I kind of don't accept that being in love itself is foggy because it almost puts affairs and marriages equally okay, which we know isn't the case. One may think, too, that being in love is to be avoided because being foggy should be avoided.



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Originally Posted by LifetimeLearner
Originally Posted by Jedi_Knight
Are all people in love also "in the fog?"

I don't think being in love necessarily brings about "being in the fog." It's that logical plus emotional concept. If one has few logical reasons and mostly emotional reasons for their relationship, they may be in the fog. Affairs are illogical because at least one of them is already married. All the rationalization used to try to "make it right" are illogical. However, if two people are in love with each other and both have a lot to offer and both are buyers, then they aren't "foggy." I kind of don't accept that being in love itself is foggy because it almost puts affairs and marriages equally okay, which we know isn't the case. One may think, too, that being in love is to be avoided because being foggy should be avoided.


I think accepting lovebank deposits can sometimes make people act a little drunk! I've seen smart women completely lose their heads and sense of logic just because a man hit a few key needs buttons . It's like watching them down shots of tequila.

I think a real relationship develops more slowly than that. It's still giving us a buzz but its at a more responsible pace. Like having a glass of wine occasionally. People who pour lovebank deposits down someone's ear are literally trying to get them too drunk for smart decisions. It's said on most dating sites advice pages that you should avoid anyone who appears infatuated very quickly because its probably a scam for either sex or money.

Of course adulterers get very drunk on LB deposits, because they are receiving them from two different people. Who behave much as dating site scammers would. Acting infatuated for a dark purpose.

If it appears too good to be true, it probably is.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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My wife met up with OM 3 months after we were married and talked with him off and on our entire 13 years without me knowing. She read part of the book and said she was a buyer, not sure how she came to that conclusion. MrRollieEyes

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Well I finished most of the book.
I took it with me while I was visiting my ex ww's sisters family.
I spoke with her husband about Electric Fence Personality because ww sister also has this personality.
He told me he was just hanging in there.

I shared the book with him and he read a few chapters and so I left it with him, hopefully it will help him and their marriage.

Of the few Harley books I've read I will say that Buyers Renters Freeloaders has the BEST cover picture of the cup of coffee.
The others are pictures of couples and I think whoever did the Cover design made a great improvement

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A good point of consideration from another thread:

Originally Posted by ConstantProcess
Hey guys, do you get the feeling that Dr. H just wants everybody to slow down on the "Permanent mate selection" and that is why he said 30 Dates for contrast effect?

Lets see, good rules for dating

Get to know the person in different circumstances

Don't let sex become the driving force in your connection.

Hold off on sexual activity until you are married..IE..See first two rules

So if you spend a lot of free time in a non-pressure way just getting to know 30 people very well as friends, and not necessarily "The One".. you might be able to pick out one who is a good friend and maybe two or three to pick from as real good friend possibility..


It would seem good to me for this contrast process with 30 different dates to last about 6 mos. and with the refining process probably a year..

Do you think you could remain celibate that long girls? Then you have the marriage to plan out too of course.

Oh I know that there are those that have their head screwed on straight and just know, and if they can be found anywhere its on this site. Both men and women.

Just thought the sex thing and the rules about that should be clearly thought out and stated..just seems a little foggy

It goes double for the guys


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