Dear friends,<BR>Please help me. I have been here on this board since April. I discovered my H's 6 month long affair in Jan and he was never able to end it completely. We have been separated since August and when he left he said he was never coming back - but also never pursued divorce. Now he is back to ambivalence - doesn't think divorce is what he wants, but is still unable to commit to me. We have had some wonderful times together over the last several weeks - our anniversary, deep sharing of feelings and where we think we failed each other in our marriage - even talking about needs-met and unmet, all mostly positive, great lovemaking and fun with our kids. But still the commitment I need is lacking. The assurance that it is over with OW. I know it is not - it has endured longer since discovery than before. And I cannot stay so emotionally connected to him under these circumstances. I am not in danger of lovebusting, but I cannot focus on me. I am distractable at work, short with my kids, all because I have let my hopes and expectations get so inflated - solely on the basis of words that he has not yet matched with actions. I fear he never will.<P>My H and I have been back and forth so many times. I have done plan A til blue in th e face. I did Plan b when he moved out and it seemed to bring him back to me - at the very least it got me to a healthier emotional place. Yet when he began to reach out I responded - I think in retrospect I never should have done this without a clear resolution of the OW question. But he has told me he wants to rebuild our marriage but that he lacks the strength to do what is right. I cannot give him this strength. I cannot fix all his mistakes. I can only work to fix my own and support him on his own journey - which I am willing to do, but not while he is still with OW. It is as if he wants to be sure the marriage will work before he makes the final commitment to leave her. And for me, I am unwilling to put all my energy into the marriage until he has left her for good - and gotten over her.<P>We have a date scheduled for the weekend and I am beginning to ask myself why? What is the price I pay for this immediate gratification - I enjoy his conversation, I know I like that he needs me and tells me all the things I do for him that no one else can, I like the feeling that he is still my H. But I hate that it is all so transient. That the next day he may be out with her. Every Monday I have a horrible emotional hangover from out time together - even though it is usually very enjoyable... I do not wish to do this anymore. I fear pushing him away and into her arms - yet I do not want him while he is still with her. Catch 22 anyone? <P>I am so tired. Sometimes I have so much hope, but it all still hurts so much. Why can't he decide? And why am I back in this hell of uncertainty? What do I do?<P>Thanks for letting me vent. I feel so depressed. Thank God tomorrow is another day….<P>Starpony

Well, I guess we are both in the pit... I heard a sermon today that the pastor said "If God lets you fall in a hole that you can't get out of, its for the purpose of it Glorifying Him when He makes everything work out to get you out of it....<P>Im soo hanging on to that tonight, because I know that for anything to put my marriage back together, it would have to be a Miracle!! I'll add you to my prayers...<P>cozy

Starpony,<P>How long were you on Plan B? What did he/do say to get back into your life.<BR>My suggestion to you would be, get back on Plan B. If he is not willing to give up OW, there is no way for you two to rebuild your marriage.<BR>He needs to let her go if he wants to be with you. He cannot sit on the fence for the rest of his life and YOU cannot let yourself be pulled in to this.<BR>You deserve far more respect than this. You are sharing your H and that is not right.<BR>Sending you prayers. <P>God Bless,<P>Cheryl

Ceecee,<BR>I did plan b for about 8 weeks. Then after dropping off the kids one day, H asked to take me out for our anniversary. I melted and did not ask the hard questions. I am a wimp and know it - I just wanted the fantasy. And since then we have continued to reconnect but still with no mention at all on his part (or mine I admit) of OW. He does not bring it up - I do not ask. But it is eating away at me, I thought maybe I could keep up boundaries and keep the focus on myself but it is impossible once I open my heart to him.<BR>I have decided to let him know this weekend how much I have enjoyed the last few weeks, how pleased I am that he hopes to rebuild, etc. But that I cannot go any further along that path until I know OW is out of his life. I need to do this. Hope I am strong enough.

Starpony -- I never did a plan b. OW is out of picture (I'm 99% sure). He says it was never about OW. She was a symptom, not the cause. He continues to ride the fence about the direction he wants to take with me. That bites hard. Monday night he called and was so needy. He was to call Tues. night. It's thursday and I haven't heard from him. <P>I feel so strong right now because I haven't seen him this week. I know what you mean about the emotional hangovers on Monday. After a weekend, I feel so down. Making love with someone who can't tell you they love you makes me really feel pathetic. I guess I know that was always one of his greatest needs (which I admit had not been met)and I'm trying to make "love deposits". <P>He will be moving in a couple of weeks. I guess things will take care of themselves one way or another. He'll either decide he likes being alone or he'll want me to eventually join him. Time will tell.<P>So, we love them. We want to be with them. We can't work on our marriages if we aren't with them. I guess the only differences in our situation is the fact your h is still involved with the ow. I may be a fool, but I truly believe ow is out of picture. If she weren't, I don't know if I'd be willing to be with him as much as I've been. Hang in there. No one can really say what you need to do. Only you know what your heart tells you. <P>After reading Carol's post about Glenn's untimely death, it makes me thankful that at least I have a chance to be his friend again. My brother will killed in a situation very similar to Glenn. He was seperated from his wife (mainly due to his drinking) and was killed while driving drunk. His wife (ten years later) still feels so badly because they had not been friends in the end. I feel badly because I had "fussed" at him over his drinking the last time I saw him. I guess I want my last memories with H to be good before he moves in case something were to happen with him. <P>What a mess.

Starpony,<BR>I can only imagine the confusion that you face during this rough time. My suggestion is honesty. Be honest with yourself first. Think long and hard about what all of this caused you. The pain, anger, frustration, and heartache are all still to fresh to be sorted out. Do you honestly believe that your H. wants to focus on you and your marriage ? Right now as far as he's concerned he still has the best of both worlds. He has his family and the OW. <BR>You need to be honest with him. You need to(in a non love busting way) tell him that it is either the OW or his family. You can't continue to be led around like a puppy on a leash. You are a strong, vital woman that deserves better. Be true to yourself.<P>------------------<BR>That Which does not kill us makes us stronger.<P>

Oh, Starpony! You and I are in such the same state of confusion! Try not to focus so much on the OW. In my case, he broke up with her 5 months ago, but I'm still in limboland. So remember that just getting rid of OW won't solve all your problems.<P>Read my thread on having his cake and eating it too! <P>I don't know what to tell you. I waffle back and forth between wanting to be loving and open to him, and wanting to draw a line in the sand. <P>I agree that you probably ended plan B too early. Maybe don't go back to a complete plan B, but just be a little more aloof and unavailable to him.

Thanks for your responses and I do welcome anyone else who cares to respond. I feel a bit better today. I guess what is confusing me is he does not act like someone who is enjoying the best of both worlds. He is depressed and sometimes close to suicidal I fear. Guess this is what keeps pulling me back as well - this deep caring and concern for him and his well-being (I somehow ignore what it is doing to my own well-being -does this sound familiar Sheba?). As well as the honest, heartfelt, but non-commital and totally confused letters he keeps writing to me…<P>Janie - thanks for pointing out what is a BIG difference in our situations. That OW is out of the picture. I too would probably be like you - letting time do it's work, if I were as confident as you seem to be that the affair was finished.<P>Robilar - I know. I have done this self-examination and the analysis of H as well. This pain has been awful, but it has helped me to grow in new ways. Do I really think H is ready to focus on the family?- the obvious answer is no, or else he would be here with us. I think he has too much affair aftermath to deal with - the biggest being that he needs to find a new job - and has to deal with this first to have enough self-esteem to even seriously attempt to come back to me and the family. In this interim time, I do truly believe he feels too weak to make the hard decisions. He doesn't trust himself at all-and OW must still fill some kind of need for him (yuck!!!).<P>Somehow I have to stop worrying about him, disengage somewhat and just trust him to find his way - and hope that the way he finds will lead him back to me. So hard….<P>Does anyone think I would be making a mistake by: 1) being honest, telling him that I cannot continue to be so close unless we can be honest about the status of OW relationship - and he can assure me it is over and 2) pulling back from him if it is not. On the one hand we are communicating so well now I hate to stop this progress, but I know, its not really progress if OW is still around….<P>Sorry, still having a really rough time.<BR>

Hi Ani-<BR>This really sucks huh! I read your post and I try to be aloof and unavailable but I am such a goof at being able to do this. (I think you can relate ). <P>I know OW is not the whole problem. It is just something I would like to know so that I could understand where we are a bit better. Would you be honest with H about why you are being distant - i.e. because no progress can be made if he is still involved with her (and even then it may be a long road?)<P>God, I am a confused mess...

We are so much in the same place. If anything, I'm even more distraught. I've given my husband great gifts in the last couple of months and he's loved them. But he still runs off to see the OW and won't talk about us.<P>I think Plan A sometimes leaves us with the false impression that OUR BEHAVIOR could make a difference. I don't believe the primary motivation of THEIR BEHAVIOR is us, at all. I think it's about their relationship with the OW and an unwillingness to give it up based on a HOPE that the marriage can be saved.<P>I see these situations taking two primary paths at discovery. Path 1 is where at discovery, the betrayer shows great remorse and concern for the marriage and either breaks it off, tries to, or continues and lies about it. Path 2 is the one we're on. In Path 2, the betrayer has little remorse, blames the affair on the spouse, and makes no effort to end things. When this happens, with few exceptions, the affair doesn't end until the magic is gone, however long that takes. The marriage cannot be seriously worked on while the affair is active. The betrayer will not suddenly find courage and character in the middle of the fantasy when it didn't exist at discovery.<P>I have learned this the very hard way. I've done everything possible to save this marriage. Four months of Plan A, five months of Plan B, and now 5 months of Plan A again. Our relationship is much better, but the marriage is just as far away as ever. I suppose, if she ever breaks up with him, he's seeing how nice it can be with us and might want to come back. How much more valuable that is than Plan B is unclear to me.<P>I believe that Plan A does three destructive things to the BETRAYED when implemented for long time periods: 1) it provides the illusion that our behavior makes a material difference regarding the affair, so our expectations get too high, 2) it exaggerates our frustration because so little seems to happen from so much effort, and 3) it keeps us from more actively working on the rest of our lives. It's a tough call whether these destructive aspects more than offset the benefit of 1) feeling like you're doing something active to save the marriage, and 2) making some MINIMAL deposits in the betrayer's love bank (I speculate ten cents on the dollar).<P>Only you can decide how much of this you can take in Plan A. I am at the point of a major modification. I cannot continue to give, give, give with so little coming back. I'm more actively moving myself to a different variation, known as Last Resort in Divorce Busters. As of this week, I have stopped inviting my husband to things, giving him gifts, or making arrangements to do fun things with him. I'll be pleased as punch when I see him, but I can't keep reaching out. I also can't go back to Plan B, as that proved too destructive for the children. But I have to make plans without him and actively work on building up the rest of my life and relationships.<P>Whatever you decide, the primary component of that decision should be what's best for Starpony. Whatever it is, you will always have my support and guidance, for what it's worth.

Thanks Distressed,<BR>You know your support is worth a lot. And I admire your clear-headedness. I know I have things to be thankful for: my H does want to talk about us, he expresses his conflicted feelings to me, he wants to know how that makes me feel, etc. I am just frustrated with so much talking and so little action. But yes, we have come a long way from Aug. when he was set on never coming back...<P>Here's the latest loop. We had lunch together today and he wanted to know my response to his letter of the weekend. H said "I have tried to be very honest about my conflicted feelings and want to know how you feel. I am trying hard to work through these conflicts but what if by the time I want to come back to you - you are used to being without me and don't want me back." Luckily we were almost back to my office and I said I didn't have time to talk. Maybe later...<P>Is there anything hopeful in this? How can i guarantee him something when I have no idea how long it will take him to "work throught" his issues? Why is this even right to ask me? <P>Guess we need to talk...I don't know why I am finding this all so wearing all of a sudden.<P>Starpony

Dear Starpony,<P>When the Monday emotional hangovers are carrying on into Thursday, maybe it is time for plan B, or like distressed said, Last Resort Plan.????<P>Of course, all plans done with prayer, right? <P>Distressed,<BR>You've made some good points, and wise observations. <BR>

Touche TNT! I know I am wallowing a bit here...<P>Starpony

Oh Starpony I wish I could help you only you know my situation is exactly the same as yours. A H who sits on the fence for over a year. I have no answers I just want you to know I care about you. I find this sometimes helps - just sit and look in a mirror and smile at yourself I sometimes end up laughing since I sometimes look silly sitting grinning at myself - it's silly but it might cheer you up. It won't take your problems away but it makes you smile for a while. Good luck.

At last! Something I know the answer to!! I am frequently hit with these hypothetical questions. He wants me to commit to things (like how things will be if he comes home), without having to commit himself. I've decided that this doesn't get us anywhere, and its not fair to me. My approach now is to say that I can't know how I'm going to feel in the future. <P>It's the truth -- you don't know how you'll feel when the time comes. And its okay to keep him guessing. Why should you make a commitment to him for some time in the future when you are getting no commitment from him? I wouldn't say this because its a lovebuster. You might just say that you really hope you'll still be willing to work on things when the time comes, but you just can't know how you are going to feel. Feelings change, after all -- he is evidence of that. <P>JMHO!!

Starpony,<BR>I think when we are implementing Plan A, we forget that we do not need to totally give up ourselves. We need to take care of ourselves and when things get too much, move on to Plan B. You would not be out of line to ask your h about his contact with ow and then set the boundaries of no contact with him if that is something that you cannot handle. At this point, is sounds like you can't and I don't blame you! Also, him asking you if you will be around forever gives you a great opportunity to let him see there are consequences to his actions. Tell him that you love him very much and right now you will do about anything to get your relationship back on track. You cannot guarantee what will be your feelings in a 6 mo. or a year. You are already growing and changing from this event in your life, he needs to know that he needs to be there to grow and change with you or things may go too far for you to recover as a couple. This is not all about him. This is about you and your kids too. Plan A is a wonderful tool, but when it starts destroying who we are, it is time to move on to Plan B. Look at you, pray to God for answers, and read His word. None of the choices you face have perfect answers. Do what is best for the overall picture

Hi everyone - thanks so much for all your responses. You never fail to rush in when I am really down and I am happy to say I'm doing better today.<P>I wrote to H yesterday and assured him that I do indeed still love him, but basically told him that while I love feeling closer to him, and love his telling me his feelings and sharing that he would like to be back with me - I need action that signifies this. I need assurance that it is over with OW (and has been for a while) if we are to start to reconcile. We had dinner here with the kids and he lingered after they were asleep. He assured me that it is over with her except for the "kicking and screaming" and I said that is always where you've run into trouble before (since OW generally gets suicidal or otherwise lashes out when he breaks it off). He told me he feels trapped with her. So I read this to me he wants it over, but hasn't really told her yet - he still is not there and isn't strong enough to act. To be honest, I do not think he will have the strength until he has found a job and is confident he can rebuild his life from the devastation of the past year, if even then...<P>Alright, I was not perfect. I allowed one last sleepover. But this a.m. I reiterated that I need some boundaries and would be backing off on the physical and emotional closeness because he clearly is not ready to commit to the marriage yet. I am ready now to start to rebuild - I do not know what my feelings will be in the future but I hope when/if he ever gets out of the relationship with OW I will still feel the same way about the marriage.<P>Three positive things that let me know Plan A was at least noticed. H said that he felt pulled back to me because 1) we don't yell at each other anymore - (I don't lovebust) 2) he is amazed and grateful after all that he has done that I don't try to turn the kids against him and finally 3) he said the calm and dignity I have shown and the fact that I have given him space -where OW tries to paint him in to a corner keeps pulling him back to me.<P>So, now I just need the strength to truly back off. This will not be a total Plan B but more "Last Resort" - I really must focus on me, but will still be friendly with him if he initiates. <P>loveu - thanks, I am feeling stronger now.<P>animac - I read your post after I had done all of the above with H. Glad to see your advice is the same...<P>derby - you are so right. It is not all about him. He may never come around and I have truly done all I can to influence him.<P>Wish me luck and thanks again. I really needed you all the last couple days.<P>Starpony

It seems our boat keeps getting more crowded! I, too, am dealing with a fence-sitter who cannot make up his mind after discovery 4 months ago. For what it's worth, here are some of my observations & experiences:<P>- H seems to want a guarantee that his 'romantic' feeling for me will come back. Like it's something that just happens, not something you have to work at. My feeling is that men are very unrealistic about romantic love. They confuse it with infatuation. The big complaint my H has is that he doesn't 'desire' me. Ouch! Talk about an assault to your self-esteem!! One day I asked him if it would be easier for him to terminate the affair if he could once again desire me. He said 'yes'. I suppose this could be construed to mean that I am not meeting some of his needs. But, he has been unable or unwilling to tell me exactly what those needs are. And the only thing I have learned from him about what she provides, is that "she makes him happy". Either he is really confused as he says, or he is not being honest with me (a distinct possibility under the circumstances!) <P>- The allure of the affair isn't about OW, it's about the excitement of a younger woman wanting him. It's about his fear of getting older. He made a comment to me one day that maybe he was 'trying to recapture his youth'. I think that's the most rational moment he's had over the last year.<P>- Even though it is very hard to fathom, I do beleive that he is miserable being in this position. I think he wants out but doesn't know how. He has told me he is depressed about us being separated, and about not being able to live in our home.<P>- Whenever I have tried to flex my independance & try to do things on my own without advising him, he has gone off the deep end. He runs to OW, then I do not see or hear from him for days. It's like he's punishing me!! Weird, huh? Or you could say, controlling. This makes me so mad, as I feel like OW is winning the tug-of-war. What a sick game! This makes me feel like a sicko, too!!<P>I will stop rambling soon. One thing I read on another website has made me wonder about Plan B. It was written by a man (who will probably be cannonized) who dealt with his wife's affair which she refused to give up by trying to treat her as a good friend. I guess you could say that he never wavered from Plan A. Finally, the OM started to get jealous of the time she spent with her H which was a huge lovebuster and the fog finally lifted for her. I guess you could say that patience is a virtue.

Sidney-<BR>Thanks for your reply. My H went through the not desiring thing too about 6 months after discovery when we were still living together. It's not a problem anymore - except that now we are separated, and he is still seeing OW, but the way he acts toward you would think I was the one he was having the affair with. I'm working really hard on boundaries...<P>I love your note at the end. I too wonder how OW can stand the time H spends with me. Unless she just doesn't know....<P>Thanks for your thoughts.<BR>Starpony