Well I have been wondering about something I think a lot of us have had to deal with before in any relationship.

Is it a good thing to feel better when we are sure that our spouse is feeling alright?
How much of our own inner security and value is supposed to be attributed to the protection of our spouses emotional happiness?

In my case as a guy I have always felt it was up to me to protect my spouse. I have let myself become an enabler to some extent because I have felt compassion and empathy for my wife when I thought she was out of control.
I saw that in her life she had suffered emotional abuse from her past and would try not to control or manipulate her but instead would set boundaries of what I would take or not take in our marriage.
When she would fall into emotional distress and my attempts to build her up would not work I felt like a failure. When she would turn to alcohol or outrageous escapades involving bars and seeking attention from men I would blame myself for not living up to a standard that she obviously needed.

I would only find solace in working like a dog, long hours of hard labor and trying to find ways to count my blessings, love the kids, and prayer. I was always waiting and was willing to be the victim while maybe she could seek God for herself and find the way.

I allowed myself to be gas lighted by accepting the blame for her issues. One of the most effective tools of this was a concept that I accepted...
"If you REALLY believed in God and trusted him like you should you will be strong enough to do ANYTHING you want"
That was aimed at my inability it seemed to have enough self-respect to make all the money we ever needed. I had low confidence and I felt it was because she had continued to drink and carouse and that that had made an effect on me. She also got me to believe that I was just "insecure" ..Yeah I guess so...OK..I will just keep on trying.

I did not always buy this crap, there was a period of time I left because of this abuse, she straightened out, 2 years later I came back, and she respected me again but...in a 12 year life together after that she still would not take personal responsibility or work with me doing the practical planning and living within our means. So eventually the promise I had of a career that would eventually allow us to live well and celebrate life got started only to fall apart when she would either DJ me or pull a "stunt" that would tear out my heart again.

OK so I could only keep my head down and keep plowing forward doing the right thing. As time moves on and jobs are lost and credibility also I was left with my family and no personal accomplishments in the world to support them. Then when I was hurt at work and unable to work my wife admitted she had become an addict and while blaming me for it she left to 'gaslight" another guys who bought her spin. It�s the stuff that would be funny if I hadn't banked all my life on what I considered to be a most holy endeavor.
She left and eventually came back sick and never quite recovered completely from her drug abuse and I am still fighting feelings of guilt for what happened to her.

Was my concern for her balanced well with my own self-respect? Was what I valued more than being in control, compassion and understanding confused? Were my decisions to forgive and forget the disrespect and self-abuse my wife showed the cause of her instability? The answer is sometimes yes and sometimes no. My bottom line important mission in life was to stand for peace and using my mind to think things through for my family and not react to fear. I would not sacrifice the permanent on the alter of the immediate. I had to separate myself from the lack of love and respect my wife did not show me and live in a perpetual plan of loving her even when hurt as much as possible for quite some time. It did not happen all at once, it happened over time, slowly like a snake as all deception of the mind seems to.

In the end what I have come to realize is that I lost myself somewhere along the line and all of my emotions I let get out of control were worthless in comparison to my sense of self-respect.
I should have never let myself become anyone�s reason for their problem. I have read somewhere this is co-dependence. That people like me who have a low self-image or should we say confidence in them or strong senses of who they are become dependant on the perceived happiness of another. If they are Ok then I am sort of thing. This kind of self-sacrifice without having strong ideals and boundaries can be self destructive and over time because you can�t ever please someone into self control, both will lose out on living in the now, always waiting for something good to happen to make them feel better.

But what was supposed to be my function as a Husband? It was to me to provide protection. More than just protections from animals in the wild but from the animal nature of people and sometimes from the fears that live within us that drive us. In my wife�s case it seemed she had a unhealthy need to be needed by everyone she met. Hence she would become their counselor and seeks to make them see the light and feel better. Something really she was searching for in herself, never really knowing she was already OK..
In her life with God it was at the most intense. Because she had terrible self image issues and such an awful childhood that supported that self image, her revelation that it was people and spiritual flaws that effected everyone she sought to teach others about how to be set free and depend on God for their past, present, and future security. All that is wise but she neglected the interpersonal skills and rules that God stated were necessary to maintain intimacy with the people most close to her. She would act correctly without actually feeling good about issues and feel entitled to expect God-like forgiveness from anyone she hurt. �God save our would-be Saviors� was what it meant to me as it was more manipulation than anything else and slowly steals the individual�s sense of self and ability to become accountable for their own decisions and state of their own emotions and happiness.
It was like a constant accusation that we/I were stupid and uninformed and failing to live life correctly and we are forced to either separate our heart from that person or suffer internally as we accept that blame. As strong as I was eventually emotionally it takes its toll.
Because children do not have the intellectual ability to understand that they are dealing with someone emotionally disturbed, it is important that they have someone present who is there to buffer what they feel is their responsibility to protect their parent. It�s the same thing that happened to her and she was unwittingly passing that onto her children. I was able to endure the rejection for their sake and in the back of my mind I also believed she would stop rejecting me also as long as I kept my head screwed on straight and not given place to my own fears that were only interested in my destruction.

As with anyone who abuses themselves with drugs or alcohol, there are issues internally that prompt there actions. These were the emotional issues I waited for Sandy to explore with someone she would respect as a counselor.
She actually had a split personality, there was the Sandy that wanted to live right and true while supporting her children and others, then there was the frustrated, angry and bitter need to feel in control and motivated by fear of loss woman who she fought to control. Somehow inside that second woman had been given power emotionally. She understood why she felt so much fear and rejection as a child but never took the time to find out what triggered those emotions as an adult but she would get wrapped up again and again with curing them from others like if she could, she would also be cured.
She needed to put the oxygen mask on herself more often and practice separation from others who were negative and destructive. This was part of the rejection we all felt and I fought to reject from myself and help her seek counsel for what she felt, not what she knew about people and their problems. I was sure that if she would come to the place where she was honest about how destructive drinking and past personal vendettas she felt strongly enough about that she would hurt God, herself, me and the children, I at least had a chance to build a life with her and that God would reward me for loving her as I would want to be loved.

I was in love with the Sandy that in my mind is the real one. The first one I described. I lived in hope she would prosper and become stronger enjoying life daily and having a value not based on what the simpletons she had surpassed from Vermont had taught her or her attendance in a church that preached she would become her worse fears if she wasn�t dedicated to supporting it, but from what God had imparted to her when she sought him out in her heart in years past when she was alone with him and studying the word.

She was in love with who she thought I should be. She was interested in me because she saw I had a heart and was at least wise enough to know people succumb to fear and are abused by it. She saw strength in me that came from humility and the truth that the world did not spin because of me, but for me as long as I appreciated my place in it and didn�t abuse the only thing really valuable in life, people. She also felt sorry for me and wished to cure me. It was veiled by her outward behavior but I could sense it. When I brought it up I was told it was my insecurity so I shut up and took it like a Man.
I was intoxicated by her knowledge of Gods word and how it applied to our souls and self-esteem. Her desire to be with me seemed both scary because she had alcohol issues and wonderful because maybe this was who I needed in my life, someone who could help me understand how God loved me and wanted me to live in it instead of my own feelings of insecurity and weakness. I thought we could help and love each other and build a relationship based on Openness and Honesty ,,,as soon as we got into how we could stop the self-abuse and her nasty change of personality when she drank.
But in truth she saw a workhorse that really had no sense of self and believed that she could change me into someone she desired to at least spend time with and as insecure ppl are, they need to be needed and I was willing to bare my soul for her because I was that way also. It seemed right because we both had pasts that were painful and were hurt by selfish people. We sought to avenge that pain within ourselves instead of leaving it behind where it belonged.

Neither of us was ready for a relationship that went beyond friendship. In time we could have seen that I believe but instead of waiting we both jumped in stubbornly refusing to get healthy ourselves first. Thinking it was destined because our emotions ran us and we didn�t see what was driving us, past emotional pain and the fear of losing someone who so strongly affected our hearts.
When she became pregnant and found out she had cervical Cancer the dynamics changed and there was no going back. Another life was created and we were responsible for it even if we were ill-equipped we knew what we knew was right and did the best with the tools we had at the time..

It wasn�t until the separation after two years that she started to change internally. After 6 months she stopped drinking. Then she started to seek counsel from her Pastor on what she needed to do to recover her marriage. She never linked therapists and doctors to the provisions God had for her life, and I could never get her to get past the pride and fear either.

CP, I do wish I had the words of wisdom to help you and relieve your guilt of what happened to Sandy.

We do have a lot in common tho. As my first wife was bipolar, I can understand where you are coming from. I felt resposible for her as well as my current WW's happiness. I very much felt responsible for my first wife's death. If she was sick and couldn't make rational decisions for herself, then it was up to me to do it for her.

There were so many 'what ifs' and 'I should have' that it was driving me crazy along with the grief of the loss. I used to take my .38, unload it, and just practice picking it up, putting it my head and pulling the trigger. I wanted it to be an automatic action that I could do without thinking about it.

I felt like it was all a bad dream and if I just had enough faith, that I could do this action and would wake up and things would be back to normal, with her laying beside me. After all, "Faith without works is dead".

Then one day, I loaded the gun and went out to her grave. I placed the gun to my head.....but all I could think about was my mom and how much this would hurt her. Because of this, my thought was, 'I don't have enough faith'. So I put down the gun and decided I would try to live on.

Her family and friends also blamed me and even accused me of killing her. My life was destroyed in an instant. But I had so many people praying for me and so many people telling me it was not my fault, that there was no way I could watch her 24 hours a day. I cannot be responsible for other peoples actions.

The worst thing about it to me was that I had no hope. No hope of ever seeing her again. No hope that I could be happy again without her. I found my hope in Jesus and his promise that I would see her again. That she had now found the happiness with him that I could never give her.

Two years later, I met my current wife. She showed me that I could love again, and be loved. It wasn't till after I had fallen for her that I found out about her sexual addiction. As you said,

"It did not happen all at once, it happened over time, slowly like a snake as all deception of the mind seems to."

I wanted and felt resposible for her happiness so I did and allowed her to do things I would have never imagined myself doing.

So here I find myself again. Alone and feeling resposible for not being strong enough to make the right decisions when they would have made a difference. The biggest difference now being, I still have hope.

My top emotional need must be Physical Attractivness as both my wives are/were very attractive, where I am not. Having a good looking wife makes me feel better about myself. "Shallow Hal" but my current WW truely feels like my soulmate. She knows me better than anyone as I do her.

I am praying for you CP, as I hope you will me.

Im glad you didn't pull the trigger, and as you are I beleive we are all prisoners of hope. Hope from above, and not from within, as I agree with God that he has the best plans for me, and mine are frail.

May he guide you also, as you become his willing servant, as I in my mind and heart am striving to be. I want to do this with joy and conviction, to represent him well, and as a place of comfort to others.

Its allways one day at a time though isn't it? Gods not finished with us yet.

No he is not or we would be gone. Yes, it is one day at a time right now but when my wife died, it was one minute at a time as I'm sure you know. I couldn't even think of the next hour. There was too much pain involved in that amount of time to be able to think about.

Thank you for your prayers CP. I don't see how people make it through these times without them.

A Pastor said to me when my wife was dieing, "Without God most people at this time just....'Implode"..."

I could see that, crumbling into ourselves. I did it anyway, but time and reason and faith has brought me out of a lot, as God has given me the things that help me, most of them being his people with the healing spirit.

I have to face that much of my identity has been through my wives. It didn't start out that way, I was just a nice guy figuring out his future, but when I was married I tended to let the rule the roost emotionally, hence Im happy if your happy. This was and is the weakness I talked about, and it comes from many sources of example.

Now that I am single and can survive on my own without those triggers effecting me, I cannot make or have any excuses for myself. All that I do is now by my choice, as it was allways really, but now there is no fear of loss because its allready gone.

Still hard to value myself, but that is probably because I have allways attached that to performance, instead of listening to what God says about us all, that we are valuable because He says so. But I am still a work in progress, and he will give me good things, as he promised. Now I have time to develop that most important spiritual relationship with Him.

Count it as 3.

I was working full time, going to school, trying to position myself to provide the absolute best for my FWW and my daughters.

As I was so tied up, I felt that allowing her to "live a little" was only fair. I never believed that it would create enough of an emotional and mental separation for her to look outside of our marriage.

Getting an education, working full time, trying to be a husband, trying to be a father - it's a lot to put on one person's plate.

I was carrying the weight of all of that, and the fact that my FWW hadn't been meeting my own needs for a very long time. I carried on under the illusion that when I saw the finish line, it would all be worth it.

So, when I hit the wall and was going to be fired from my job for mistakes I was making, and also failed every class I was in that quarter, I was crushed. Add to that, my wife voicing her frustration at my pace, and comparing me to other people she had seen getting through schooling faster than I had... and I had nothing left. I was a shell, empty.

I thought I was getting it turned around in 2009. FWW and I spent a week in Vegas together, we got out more together, I was doing OK in my new job, got a 4.0 for my last quarter and earned my AA. But, things were still screwed up. I was working graveyard while going to school, and we barely saw each other. She developed an independence from me.

The A happened a month before my schedule changed to something more compatible. A month before I got accepted into my next phase of schooling.

Everything that makes this all so recoverable, is also what infuriates me. The lack of honesty, the lack of effort on her part is something that eats at me every day.


Lost, it's a long road. But, it sounds like you have a good head on your shoulders, and enough of an LB$ account for your WW that there is hope.

From one man who invested his existence in his fallible wife, to another... chin up, sir. Our compassion is both our strength and our weakness.

Yeah thats the deal when you are working at that pace..


When it comes to the point that lies and deciet take over, it is the worst I agree. Its a total lack of respect and re-write of reality. We can't do that and survive never mind thrive. It eats you up completly. You are torn apart in 100 different directions.


This is so true, and why we need a partner that knows our weaknesses, and helps us with them, not capatilize on them.

Thank you very much HHH.

Was thinking tonight, of the first time we recovered our marraige, when she spent 1 1/2 years waiting for me to come home, praying and drawing closer to God, and how I had given up, how without AA I didn't believe it.

How she admited to me that she emasculated me, didn't respect me, appreciate me, and thought she ran the whole show, based on how she felt. She was a different woman then, with a broken and contrite heart. We were different then, and nothing would ever come between us we swore. It was gonna be forever.

That is why I state over and over if your gonna do it, do it all the way. If your gonna use MB, use it all the way. If I had insisted she go to AA, and we went to pastoral counselling concerning her addiction proneness, we would be still fighting battles, but she would be here with me also.

Instaed we thought we could do it, and we thought we knew how, and we let our gaurds down. We strained at the yoke, and puled in our own direction, without complete honesty about what we were doing, and how we felt. Its hurt my childrens and my relationship with God and an active faith. We are all still getting over that.

I Used to live by that scripture, "Whatsoever thy hands findeth to do, do it with all thy might, and heart."
But now I do much less becuase I struggle with faith. Why did this crumble? What did I do, or not do?

Coming here and reading Dr Hs words, were a revelation, I see what I had overlooked, what I allowed, but still I have a hard time forgiving myself, being so weak. Yes the biggest problem was her drinking, and she had deep emotional issues, and the denial was bad on her part, but to lose her is unforgivable to me. I love who she was, even with the faults she so despartaly tried to make up for in her performance, and the blind alleys she ran down in her mind. I was not perfect, but more healthy and able to survive, but I feel like a failure because in my mind, bottom line, I was responsible for her because she was my wife.

All that aside, its so important that everything be laid out in the open and examined, and that we don't try to go it alone. Its important that you don't leave one stone unturned emotioanlly as soon as your looking for something more, even if you don't know what it is, talk about it and don't be afraid.

We belong to each other, and in no place is that more true, than in marriage.

We were not perfect people, but we knew that going in, still figuring out what happened, not practically, but why spiritually. Untill then, I wont let myself off the hook, I owe it to her memory.

Thats not co-dependant, that responsible. But this site has helped me more than anything.

CP; thank you for being here.

There is something about about your humility, honesty, curiosity, and strength while enduring the pain and guilt that you carry that inspires hope.

If you have half of the hope you have the ability to inspire in others, I know you'll be OK.

Thanks HHH, Made me tear up a little.

BTW, I love that sig line about trust. It reminds me of that song by the police, "Every step you take". I used to think I would not want to be in a relationship like that, full of fear and insecurity, but its an honest love song, and so true. Lets see if I can find the lyrics...

Every breath you take
Every move you make
Every bond you break
Every step you take
I'll be watching you

Every single day
Every word you say
Every game you play
Every night you stay
I'll be watching you

Oh can't you see
You belong to me
How my poor heart aches
With every step you take

Every move you make
Every vow you break
Every smile you fake
Every claim you stake
I'll be watching you

Since you've gone I've been lost without a trace
I dream at night, I can only see your face
I look around but it's you I can't replace
I feel so cold and I long for your embrace
I keep calling baby, baby please...

Oh can't you see
You belong to me
How my poor heart aches
With every step you take

Every move you make
Every vow you break
Every smile you fake
Every claim you stake
I'll be watching you

Every move you make
Every step you take
I'll be watching you
{ From: http://www.elyrics.net/read/p/police-lyrics/every-breath-you-take-lyrics.html }
I'll be watching you

Every breath you take
Every move you make
Every bond you break
Every step you take (I'll be watching you)

Every single day
Every word you say
Every game you play
Every night you stay (I'll be watching you)

Every move you make
Every vow you break
Every smile you fake
Every claim you stake (I'll be watching you)

Every single day
Every word you say
Every game you play
Every night you stay (I'll be watching you)

Every breath you take
Every move you make
Every bond you break
Every step you take (I'll be watching you)

Every single day
Every word you say
Every game you play
Every night you stay (I'll be watching you)

Every move you make
Every vow you break
Every smile you fake
Every claim you stake (I'll be watching you)

Every single day
Every word you say
Every game you play
Every night you stay (I'll be watching you)

So who wouldn't want to be that in love and that needy? Not me

I know exactly where you are coming from CP. This June 13th with be the 10th anniversay of my wife Marilyn's death. So much guilt for so long that it gave me anger problems. I felt unworthy of love, I felt guilt when I started seeing my current WW. I felt guilt when I would tell preWW how much I loved her and other loving words. But I could hear Marilyn tell me that 'its ok, I want you to be happy, tell her those things'

Though the pain of her passing was tremendous, I wouldn't have traded our time together for anything. It definately showed me how we can loose it all in the blink of an eye. But I didn't have the power to forgive myself. I had to ask God to forgive me for I am but a human, with all the shortcomings that come with that.

Just from the posts that I have read of yours CP, I can tell you that Sandy's time on this earth was much better with you in her life, than without you. She is happy now, and she wants you to be happy too.

God has a plan for you CP. And I feel that your giving back to the BS's here on MB is part of that plan. I, like so many others, are extremely grateful that you are here.

This may be one thing that has contributed to my willingness to reconcile, repair, and recover my own my own M.

My oldest sister had children very young. VERY young. She essentially married her drug dealer. For awhile, when my oldest two nephews were born, and after they had another two children, they were both recovering addicts/alcholics and living decently. My BIL went to trade school for auto upholstery. Then my BIL went wayward, and my sister said enough and walked away.

My BIL relapsed, and eventually married a woman that shared his habit. He moved out of state with her for a few years.

At some point, I his sense tried to overcome his addiction. He had "had enough." He was going to divorce the woman, come home, and repair his life and his relationship with his children.

However, in the typical fashion of an addict/wayward, he decided before he could do that, he had to have "one last go-round."

He overdosed. The paramedics came and revived him, but he refused transport to the hospital. A few hours later, he overdosed again. This time, the paramedics could not revive him.


It has been 6 years since my BIL passed. It was a fight to get his body home, and away from his "wife." She fought his mother and his sisters, until a court-order came through.

I'll never forget the pain on my sister's face the day we buried him.

She could not have saved him from his disease, and she knows that intellectually. However, our hearts don't care what our minds know. Our hearts only know to protect those we love.

Our emotions aren't always the best indicators of the path we should follow, because they ebb and flow, and emotions usually exist in a moment.

Like a child that doesn't listen when you say "Don't touch that, it's hot!" it seems like some people who just don't get it until they burn, and it's painful when it is the people we love, and they burn us with them.

Gentleman, thank you both for your candid honesty.

Wow, what an ordeal. You've been through so much.

Yes, thank you for being here. ((CP))

Why would you have to thank someone who was dieing of thirst and went to a well? All of you have helped me heal, I should be thanking you..OK I'm thanking you back.

I started this thread to talk about co-dependency, and the misuse of the term, hoping to help others define what it means to them, and how they have defined themselves in it.

DR H published an article on healthy Co-dependancy, and how the movement of anti-codependancy is ruining marriages. Here is the link..

How the co-dependancy movement is ruining marriages

Using this as a study guide, maybe we can also examine how we have been taught about co-dependancy, what it has ment to us, and define whatever struggles we have with the concept.

I cannot imagine being even just in love, never mind sharing my life with someone, without being dependant on thier well-being. I think everyone probably has something to say about what this means to them in thier marriage relationships.

Jump in

Ok I read the article, and it is all very clear to me, and I agree he has some truthful and real observations.

Here is one part that I have had trouble with in my philosphy and experience in life totally getting. I think it is because of the highlighted statement on values. Its about self-esteem.

___________________________________________________

6. I obtain self-esteem out of helping others solve their problems.
What is self-esteem, anyway? It's feeling good about ourselves, feeling that we're okay. Getting back to my earlier question about the meaning of life, what do I have to feel good about? That I exist? No. I don't give myself any credit for my existence. I feel good about the choices I make and what I can do -- primarily for others. If I can't do anything for someone else, I'm certain I'd have no reason to have self-esteem.

Self-esteem is not something that I need in order to be productive. It's being productive that gives me self-esteem. It's what comes after we do something, not before. And what we do for self-esteem can't be just anything. It must be what we value. Of the things I do, what do I value the most? I'm afraid I fail the co-dependency test again. I value most what I do for others. So that means that the more I help others solve their problems, the better I feel about myself. I'm afraid this statements gets a "yes."
___________________________________________

So its about values, and and the core of this is self-worth. I guess I might be confusiing self-esteem with core values of self worth, but I have allways felt more productive and willing to move forward with what I value when I value myself first.

If I am alone and responsible to keep strong and accountable, and I need that strength to reach out and help the ones I love, where do I draw from? It has allways been my opinion that it was from God that my most important support came from, but it is in a lonly human experience when there are not Godly people supporting me. Even if there were, there are some issues you can only solve yourself, when it comes to self-worth. In those places we find God when thier is nobody who understands, and nobody can/will help. We must make a choice in what we believe in, and stand for, even if it is only survival untill a day when things are better.

So to be productive yes it is about helping/serving people, even if you are in a somewhat considered "lowly" position or serving, (I personally think every form of employment is nessesary and "There are no small jobs, just small people")"like the garbage man who shows up every week to take away the trash. They work hard, are productive, and are looked at by some as having a lower job that doesn't pay enough, when in truth maybe they live within thier means and don't need much to be content. Maybe thier scope in life is greater than the person who needs prestige and money to feel important. Try looking at this humble servant and seeing God in him, and if hes got things right, he will be happy with what he has, and do it cheerfully, being willing to serve where he can.

But don't try to get into the stock exchange or politics with this being the only thing on your resume', that you served cheerfully.

But I am talking about work here, I know that productive-ness is not just about the monitary gain or career choices, it about all forms of respect and relationship. So the productive need applies to what we feel the most important things we do, and the support we have had in our life as to what is important.

Money, power, prestige, fame,,,or the closness and protection of those we care about. Everybody who is married knows, (or should know), that these have to be balanced not only because money is supposed to serve us, not give us worth, but so those very desirable bennies to the human ego are shared equally, and don't overpower the importance of serving others. Its people who manufacture money and give it its worth, its them also that must understand its just a tool to be used for our needs and others. Misused and seen as what the answer is to all our problems, it also can destroy our values with each other.

But how many people can even start to be productive if thier self-worth is so low that they cannot think of anything they can do for others? Is this the case of depression? Is this a lack of humility? An overblown sense of importance? An all or nothing attitude?

I am thinking it is the ability to be happy with what you have, and accept where you are, with a dream that you can ADD to that which you allready have. The oppisite is to never be satisfied, and to allways want more, because you don't want to stay a loser.

There is where God comes in, because to Him nobody is a loser, no matter how far you fall.

Outside of relationships with addicts, codependency doesn't just ruin marriages, it ruins good people. I'm going to fall back on Malsow again.


Kind of backs up your own comment, don't it?


Now, Maslow has been criticized - some state that the heirarchy model isn't realistic to the human experience. Just wanted to put that out there...

Anyway, the tier preceding esteem is...


So, according to hierarchical theory, we can only meet a higher tier of needs without meeting another through dysfunction. This would be consistent with the behavior of addicts and their marital counterparts, waywards.

Kind of explains why the people whom engage in these behaviors end up feeling broken, eh?

Yes, and reflects what happens to healthy people who follow the addict/wayward down the rabbit hole, like you said it can ruin good people.

Lets say that the addiction is not one that is so obviously dangerous. Lets say we are addicted in some ways to things that are actuaul needs that have become obsessions.

Lets say we look at what drugs do for people, and why they use them and can become dependant on them. We start at the center of the brain where dopamine serves as the reward system, feel good and safe chemical.

In normal people there are scary times that can scare us, depress us, and the emotional pain and loss of a healthy self-image combination is intense. In time and with proper support many people will evntually adjust emotionally, through use of reason, and good philosophy on life. Without some positive belief system that promotes fairness, it will be hard to handle themselves socially, but lets say they are that type of seeker, and work things out over time, the dopamine levels return as our thinking is adjusted and good habits of thought. action and result stabilize us chemically in the brain. It takes time, and good actions/thinking/actions and a decent amount of tossing these ideas around and accepting the truth in a good enviroment, and a real one also, to balance out the feelings.

The feelings are controlled by the center of the brain, and without the consious use of the rest of our mind to teach us what is real and what is not, we can live in fantasy. I don't know if I posted this on this thread, but here are scans showing the shut down of sections of the brain. I show initially the inactive areas of an addict, but the site has a library and shows all forms of damage from disease and illnesses. You can scroll around and see all kinds of revealing things in the science.

Dr Amens Spectral Brain imaging library

The addicts don't use thier brain, because the drugs tell them they don't have to anymore. They are going backwards in development and growth, and no longer need to learn and change to keep themselves happy. Add in that what they were taught before they they started drugging, on how to handle stress and whatever was desirable in life, and you have a recipe for disaster when dopamine is delivered in large doses and not regulated by thought and good choices. The odd thing is that this part of the brain has so much power. It is evident to me that we are designed to be happy first, and is paramout to our survival, with our mind keeping our bodies healthy, and the short cut of drugs destroys peoples ability.

(edit add) The example of coke use in men. Men who become heavy coke users many times do not or cannot get an erection under the influence of the drug. It doesn't start out that way, but as use increases over time the body does not need the sexual stimuation from the penis to get the dopamine rush they have from coke. A hooker I asked about if cocaine made men more sexually stimulating said, "No, but they think they are" They are still servicing the dopamine center of the brain as a priority, and thier thoughts follow the fantasy, as reality breaks down with the rest of the body. (end edit)

Stealing this from DR. H, and what brought me to MB in a google search, is this statement drawn from memory ...

" I ussually don't expect that marrige counselling will work untill the addiction issues are solved. Once the addiction is brought under control, there is a chance of recovery, but if not, there is little chance because the addict is in love with the drug. Stopping the drug use does not cure the marriage, its just a start on attacking the problems that already exist."

So here it is, the method of coping with drugs, affairs, even other forms of IB or distractions is unhealthy for the individual. Overeating, smoking, and the assumption that we can do what we want without it having an effect on others, is foolish for our own health and stability. Many marriages become stale after the first few feel good spikes of freedom and the joy of kids, and its how they assumed they have done everything right, that gets them to look outside for more stimulation, instead of within each other, first yourself, then sharing it with them.

The problem is that people compare themselves with others and do the least amount that they have to, expecting that the struggle should be over in personal growth, they have "arrived". Many bad habits can be still held onto, instead of worked on, and plans can be different for both people.
As now we are faced with the stuff we assumed would happen, mixed with the changes we undergo, and if we don't plan and communicate together with respect to each other and reason, fairness and our concepts whether fully formed and real or not, we fall out of love.

Again a natural state we are built to protect, and its spirtual in nature. Hence it is very natural to seek happiness within, and even resort to unhealthy behavior for a time, to maintain that happiness, or work towards it.

I try to live in the concept that I have all I need to be happy, and it is my weakness and lack of understanding that leaves me feeling poor inside. This way there is no struggle to have more than I need to meet my responsibilitys, and everything I get is added to my life, according to my attitude of how precious life is, and that troubles are for me to grow.

I am praying for circumstances to change of course, but mostly for strength from God to change what I can. Just like the serenity prayer, cuz we are all addicts in some way. We need love more than the food we eat.

Using What was said though the arument that esteem is at a lower sense achieved through outside circumstances and behavior socially, IE. Work, group activitys, and other disiplines most people recognize, and that inner self esteem comes first from a relationship with ourselves, it begs the question.

A re we supposed to be able to be happy by ourselves before we try to make each other happy? In a marriage I would say no as long as the needs of the other were something I could meet, and after all we are supposed to be stronger as a unit able to protect each other in thier blind spots also.

If there is improper communication, or unrealistic expectations,(maybe just unlikly like you are supposed to become a millionaire and she was supposed to anticipate your every whim) then I think we are forced to live in a state where you make yourself happy with whatever you can do reasonably and you can live with. Honest realistic communication is the key, and living on the real earth and being happy helps to.

I have turned to God for that real earth part, but living with the promise of love just out of reach, it was extremly painful. I am a big proponent of Plan B if the other is turned into an alien Pod. I beleive that is what God would want me to do.

Then I can function and get esteem from normal activities and realistic expectations. Trying to act normal when you feel anything but is healthy and theraputic, but the overwhelming feeling something is missing, can skew our conception of normal, and of the real world. It can attck your self-esteem in that area also.

Assuming that someone was totally happy before marriage,and that marriage was going to add to thier life, what did they think it would add? People don't plan to fail, they fail to plan, and yet it is in thier character that the real test comes. If things don't go according to plan, is it not important to stick together and adjust, still finding the partner more important than the plans? Planning on keeping the relationship alive is the best plan, and adjusting that first is the priority. "How does this effect us?".

We get married because it will add to our life, and it is an avenue to learn what love is, when we need to learn that all our lives.

Misword alert!

I mean the anti-codependency stance ruins good people!