Markos has asked me to come on here and find help. He says he cannot take my DJs anymore. DJs are probably his biggest complaint about me at the moment, and I know that I am hurting him severely. But I'm not really sure what to do. I'm not even aware, half the time, that I'm hurting him. At the moment, he is not very open to telling me WHAT I am doing that hurts him.

Time for some honesty:
I've been on this forum for a year now, but I haven't done anything to eliminate lovebusters. I basically gave up on MB last July. I told Markos that I thought the program would work for most people, but not us.

Because of Markos' continued AOs, I quit the program completely in December. Markos started looking around for an Anger Management program. I had an EA on facebook. A friend confronted me in January, and I confessed everything to Markos in early Feb. No contact is firmly in place. Facebook is blocked.

I have been very cruel in the things I've said and the things I've done during these few months. Last Saturday, Markos broke down and left the house and was gone for hours. This is when he texted me, telling me he could no longer take my DJs, and he asked me to post here and get help.

I've been told that Markos is probably exhausted from trying to follow the MB plan while I kept my lovebank closed.

I need practical advise. How do I get these DJs under control?

Wow...that's a lot to take in.


There's a lot of love for the both of you on MB. I pray this is a very productive thread for you, your marriage and your family.


When you say you "gave up" on MB last summer what does that mean you were doing on your end. Seems you say his angry outbursts put you in a place where you stopped doing MB but why is it his actions control yours? Do you think you may be ready to commit to a personal plan of action for your marriage and family that you'll do FOR YOU and them regardless of what struggles Markos has with doing his plan(s). I mean you've been here a year and keep coming back...but it seems you do so at his prodding. What do YOU want help with from us?

Let's see where this goes for now.

Mr. Wondering

Oh, Prisca - I hate to hear this. I'm very fond of Markos - and you!

But, conversely - I'm also glad to see you posting this here! That tells me there is hope for you guys.

Can you tell us why you 'gave up' on MB? Why do/did you feel it wouldn't work for you? This is not a snarky question, and I'm not setting you up for anything. I'd really like to hear your answer. Is there something about the program that you didn't agree with?

Can you give us an example of your DJs so we can get a sense of what Markos is talking about?

You stop doing them. I know you guys have the book Lovebusters along with the lesson from the MB course so you can start there. In addition, I would ask Marcos to take the lovebusters questionaire so he can he be more clear about what you are doing.

The next most important thing is to address your EA. Who the hell is this guy? Is he married? If so, does his spouse know? The fact that you had an EA tells me you have very poor boundaries around men, Prisca, and that is the first thing that has to change.

As a good will gesture to Markos, I would send him a no contact letter that is written together, approved by Markos and sent together. Do you have the letter in Surviving an Affair?

Do your parents know what you have done?

Prica,

I don't believe I have ever posted to you or Markos. However, let me just take what you said in this opening post and parse it for you to look at. You said Then you said

Then you said

did you read the quotes? Do you see an inconsistency in them? Do you recall your first post where you claim your H really did not listen to you or pay attention to you? Are you seeing a pattern here?

OK practical advice. Be honest with yourself. IN these two quotes you can see a lack of consistency/honesty. You do know what hurts him and you use it...cruelly by your own words.

More honesty, you WANT to hurt and punish him, and to your credit I suppose, you are succeeding well. Which makes me wonder why you are worried that he that he left, it was your goal wasn't it? To punish him and drive him away? That is the main reason people use DJ's. To protect themselves, punish others and have everyone see you as right.

More practical advice, decide what your goals are. If you want him gone, then you are most of the way to meeting your goal. If you want the marriage to work, then you have to decide how a loving person treats someone they love. A clue: it is not how you are doing that is for sure.

A DJ can be defined several ways, but the way I like to define it is an assumption made about someone based on no data or incomplete data. What makes a DJ deadly is that the person making them then acts on them and usually to the detriment of the relationship. So quit making assumptions and start talking to him like at least a person you don't want as an enemy.

But, I think there is more here than DJ's. What it sounds like and please correct me if I am wrong, is that you are attacking him and punishing him. Am I right? It seems to me that you could stop easily IF your goal is to keep him around. If it is to get rid of him, then just file for divorce and save you both the pain of what is going on.

Prica, you will stop all of this when and if you ever decide to treat him with respect and like someone you would like to have at least on the friend level if not lover. It is your call, but I doubt you would treat a friend and surely not a lover, and especially not a husband the way you are treating him, right?

Stop the attacts and if your goal is to have him around turn your interactions into invitations. Invitations for him to be with a woman that smiles, laughs, shares, is kind, is thoughtful, that focuses on others, and above all acts with GRACE.

You can do this or not, but first you must decide what you want, him punished and gone, or you two happy with one another.

Your call.

God Bless,

JL

Get a "white board".
You know, the kind you write on with a dry erase marker.
Put it in your home where everyone can see it.
You write down every incident of YOUR DJs or AOs on the white board.
You can erase them after one week.
Sunday to Sunday.
On Sunday, before erasing your "history", you make a sincere apology to your H for every incident.
One by one.
During that apology, you hold his hands in yours and you look him directly in the eye and tell him that what you did was wrong and you sincerely regret hurting him.
Do this for every incident on the board.

You'll stop quickly.

This is what I call PRACTICAL.

My dear,



My Darling Mr Pep & I have been married nearly 30 years.
Our M is mostly a delight for both of us. Really. Word!

As it happens, last night I had an angry outburst.
I can't remember the last time I acted like that toward him.
It felt terrible. I really lost control of myself. I raised my voice and actually YELLED at him over NOTHING.
He said to me "I am not the one yelling."
And, it suddenly clicked in my head what an azz I was making of myself.
I must have apologized 3 times last night and twice today.

He was laughing at my last apology today.
"That's OK, It happens sometimes."
I feel really stupid for having behaved like a snotty child.

The reason I suggest the "white board" is that you too would benefit from feeling embarrassed by your snotty childish behavior.

To put your misbehaviors on a white board for everyone to see, will motivate you to stop, sooner rather than later.

Hi Prisca,

Good to see you here but sorry things aren't going well. I'm very confused as to what you just "stopped" doing the MB program. I can think of NO good reason for that except that you just...didnt' want to do it. And THEN you had an EA.

IMHO you need to start with addressing the EA (you can do this concurrently with eliminating your DJs). What concerns me the most is that AFTER you went to the MBW and knew EXACTLY what you needed to do to protect yourself from an A, you STILL went ahead and had an EA. You KNEW what you were doing.

That is some serious entitlement. I hope you are helping Markos heal from that ~ what a slap in the face that is considering you HAVE the knowledge of MB.

Is he even still willing to try to make the M work?

Come on sister, it's been a couple of days. What are your thoughts?

JL posted some really good stuff to you - did you read that post?

Tell us what you're thinking right now. I'm particularly interested in finding out why you stopped working the MB program.

His actions don't control mine, per se. But I was in the program for what I could get out of it, not for Markos or for our marriage. And when it seemed that I wasn't going to get what I wanted out of it, I quit.

I threw a hissy, immature, "the world owes me" fit.

I gotta change my focus this time. I've been too focused on what Markos is doing or not doing for me. I've been way too focused on HIS lovebusters, and using them as an excuse to throw my hands up in disgust and give up. I've been abusing him emotionally, and I've got to stop.

What are you doing to heal from the EA?

***EDIT***

I never liked the Policy of Radical Honesty. And I didn't care for POJA, either.


These are samples of typical conversations between the two of us:

Conversation 1:
Prisca: you're quiet. you there?
Markos: I'm here.
Prisca: you're quiet. i get the feeling you don't want to talk to me
Markos: I'm very tired.
Emotionally drained.
Prisca: why?
Markos: I don't know.
Prisca: does that mean you don't want to tell me?
-42 minutes-
Prisca: you there?
if you want me to leave you alone for awhile, just say so, and I will
Markos: I'm here.
Prisca: ok
are you wanting me to leave you alone for awhile?
Markos: No
Prisca: cause all the signals i'm receiving says i should back off
Markos: No, I'm not trying to send that as a signal.
Prisca: but you're so quiet, and don't respond to my emails
Markos: I am very tired.
-17 minutes-
Prisca: lonely
feels like i'm pulling teeth to get you to talk to me
Markos: I'm sorry.

Conversation 2:
Prisca: i don't think it's fair for you to insist that i enjoy the process of scheduling.
i'm willing to do all that, but i can't force myself to feel something i don't
Markos: Okay, I understand that, I don't want to try to force you to feel a certain way.
What I want is to get at whatever has made that an unenjoyable process for you and deal with those problems, first.
I just want to follow this program, and I don't feel like we are doing that.
And if there's problems keeping us from following the program, then I want to work together to figure out what they are and eliminate them.
Prisca: what more do you want from me, i've told you i'm willing to make a schedule
i told you why i don't enjoy it
if you're wanting to wait until i do enjoy it, then it's probably going to be a long time
Markos: okay.
Mainly I don't want you to be mad at me just because I asked.
Prisca: i'm not
Markos: You may disagree, but my perception yesterday was that there were a lot of love busters toward me yesterday when I gave my complaint. I didn't hear "I'm willing to do what you are asking." I heard "You are so unreasonable. I'm already doing what you want. I've already told you I'll do this, so what's wrong with you, Markos? We are already having time together, so what do you think is wrong?" And "how dare you tell Dr. Harley about this. I am not happy with you."
I do not feel like you take my complaints seriously.
Prisca: ok
remember when you talked the other night about people hearing what they want to hear?
Markos: yes
Prisca: i didn't say any of that
Markos: I see.
And again I am feeling like my complaint is not being heard.
Prisca: i heard it
I don't know why this has to be a fight
you tell me you want a schedule, I tell you that i'm willing to have a schedule, so why are we spending 2 days arguing about it?

What don't you like about RH?

POJA?

Why are we pulling teeth trying to get answers from you? LOL

We want to help but you have to be forthcoming with truthful answers.

I will ask him.

A former friend of Markos'

No.
Yes, I'll admit that. Facebook is gone, and I'm not in one-on-one contact with any other man.

I think Markos is very satisfied with the no contact that we have in place.


No. I don't think Markos wants the attention.

I'm sorry if I missed this, but did you write an NC letter?

Then you said

No, I don't. I know I've hurt him because he is hurting. I know that I am DJing him because he says I am. But often, he tells me I'm DJing him and it takes me by surprise.

Today, for instance. I mentioned that I wasn't so sure that it was a good idea for us to chat on the IM during the day anymore (one or both of us always seems to get hurt when we do). He told me I was DJing him, and "I'm not interested in having a marriage with a woman who will not talk with me. I just told you I'm lonely for conversation, and I consider your response to be the equivalent of telling me you don't want to be married, anymore." But I said no such thing. So I'm DJing him, but I'm not sure how.

Call me dense, but what pattern?

No, I don't. I really don't.

No, that wasn't my goal at all. I wanted him to spend time with me.

No. I do not believe he needs to be punished for anything, and I am not trying to punish him.


THAT is what I want.

Thank you, Pepperband

I didn't want to do it anymore, and I found an excuse.

Yes. I had MB shoved to the back of my mind by then, though, and didn't want to think about it.

That is why I am here. I want to change, and I want to give him the marriage we both dreamed of.

Yes, he says he is.

Avoiding triggers and putting all my effort and focus into restoring our marriage.