Some of you already know my story, been married 18 years, I am the betrayed and I'm the one who is guilty of neglect. My wife had a bried emotional and limited physical affair back in July. First week in August I confronted her and she confessed. After finding I still loved her, she agreed to rebuild and drop the OM. She is on-line with me for a question, which is the first time she's been willing to address the forum. I've asked her for months to learn about herself and me through this web page, but for reasons unknown she is just now willing to read the post. I will defend her a little, she's has been in school and is just now finishing up. Time has been a problem. <P>Ok now for the question. All her life she has put being faithful at the top of her list. However she really thought our relationship was over and the right guy met her emotional needs and the affair began, which by the way only lasted 3 weeks. Although we've made alot of progress, I am unable to completely come to terms with what has happened. I still don't understand why she didn't end one relationship before starting another if she thought it was over. The other problem I have in being able to put this behind me, as she truly doesn't understand that it has destroyed my very soul. I've been striped of my pride and dignity and she's been honest enough to tell me that not coming to terms with what happened is a big turn off for her. She feels I need to just get over it. Yes she does love me, she is trying very hard to make things work. But I can't heal unless she knows the extent of my hurt, and realizes that it isn't so easy to just forget, although I do forgive her, and I do trust her now. So I thought it would help to have other people who have been betrayed regardless of gender, describe how long it takes before life goes on, and how much pain is involved. And as long as I'm doing this, I am willing to invite the betrayers to explain why my wife feels the way she does. <BR>We truly aren't trying to point fingers, we've both been wrong, and I'm not wanting her to feel more guilt than she is. But I feel that it's impossible to heal unless she understands the big picture. One other bit of information I need to add, 11 years ago, I had a one night stand, which is the one and only time I was unfaithfull, I realized instantly how wrong I was, and have never been tempted since. My guilt in what I did was so bad that I couldn't even think straight for 6 months. I never told her this until we started rebuilding, I so much agreed with Harley's Honesty and Openess policy, and because I was no better, I confessed my sin soon after discovery of her affair. I don't understand why she doesn't feel the guilt I did for unfaithfulness and how much hurt it causes. Even though I did it to her many years ago, she seems almost uneffected by it. She wasn't happy, but she sure didn't take it that hard.....Comments please.

Welcome RWC's wife!<P>I'm the betrayed. Married 17 years, both H and I never ever ever thought that infidelity could happen in our lives. I believe this.<P>H had a brief (about a month) fling with someone who he met in a bar and kissed him. It was a rare night out with a male friend. He maintains it had not yet turned sexual and he realized he had to get out of it when I discovered it. He says he never thought of leaving and he never intended for me to know. Some evidence proves he was walking away.<P>I think he was curious, he had just turned 40, he had had a disappointment in his career and when the guys talked about their sexual escapades, I think he thought our sex life was ho hum at the time. There was also a situation at his job that everyone had a weird schedule temporarily, so he had opportunity on top of the rest of the contributing factors.<P>I knew I wanted to save our family (3 kids) and never thought of kicking him out and immediately threw myself into recovery. In fact, it is still an obsession.<P>How did I feel? I was crushed, devastated. I lost my sense of self, my ability to trust my own judgment. I actually thought I was going insane for a while, but since no one knew, I had to function normally.<P>The pain totally engulfed me. Every thought filtered through my pain and the situation. I could not stop thinking about it 24/7.<P>I did not even remotely feel like myself for about 4 1/2 months. Then slowly the clouds lifted.<P>I even joked to my H that I missed his wife, too.<P>My H was immediately knew what he did was a huge mistake and he was sorry he did it and that it hurt me. I still do not think he fathoms the depth of the devastation. He showed more true remorse a few months into recovery than in the beginning. <P>He tells me it "wasn't that bad", not to defend himself, but in his mind, as wrong as it was, it had no significant impact to him. No lingering emotions, he just wants to move on. <P>It took me a long time to understand or accept that I could not make it not have happened. I know that sounds crazy, but it was so unacceptable to me, I think my mind actually wanted to reverse it.<P>I wish you all the best in your recovery.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Faith Hope Love<P><BR>Wow it's weird you would be the first one to reply to my post, I just read something you responded to about guilt and did a search on your handle. Some days in June you posted 10 or 15 times a day....Boy you must have really hurt, I know how you feel, thanks for the input.<P>One thing I wanted to add, one of the other things the wife doesn't understand, is the emotional roller coster ride, one day I'm up which encourages her, and the next day it's like day one for me. Faith Hope Love, I read one of your post back in June and you described the same thing. She told me tonight that my up's and down's have taken an emotional toll on her, can you or anyone else explain why we have the up's and down's?

I'm almost afraid to post this... but here goes...<P>My situation parallels yours in this way: I had an affair 19 1/2 yrs. into my marriage. It was brief and had one hop in the sack (sorry to be crass, but I can't actually call it lovemaking). It lasted 3 months.<P>We differ because my H had a series of emotional affairs 12 yrs. ago that he never thought were that big of deal 'cause he only kissed and a bit of fondling.<P>Okay, here's where it gets tough: my H and I are in the process of separation. He said he was trying for the last five months (since I ended it with the OM) but he wasn't really. He had terrible anger toward me, and although the anger is justified, and I do understand it because I've been there with him, I could not keep trying and pouring my heart and soul into the rebuilding when all he could do was punish me. It finally came to a point where I just couldn't handle the daily questions, discussion, anger and pain he was throwing at me. We had, literally, a little over one week of true happiness in an entire year! Some said we tried to hard, others that we didn't try hard enough. Here's how I feel about your post: it says to me that you want to forgive your W, but you don't know how to do it. Here's my advice, as seen from my present situation: you'd better find a way to let it go or your marriage will be over. If she's trying, it will only last so long before she can't handle the pain she sees in your face every second of every day. I can't answer from the "no guilt" feelings that you're getting from her. I had great remorse, and yet my H still could not go forward. Many here have the same situation. <P>My H called me tonight and said how much he appreciated how hard I've been trying to save our marriage over the last five months. He says he didn't realize it before. I am thankful he sees it now, but frankly it's a bit late in the game. I am too tired to try anymore. <P>I was suppose to stay away from this board because it was part of the process which bothered my H. That's why I'm a bit nervous posting right now. But out of habit I dropped by and saw this, felt I had to answer. <P>I hope this doesn't seem harsh. I sure don't mean it to be AT ALL. There is a season for grieving, and a season for rebuilding... they just aren't done together very well. I think the grieving has to come first, and then the rebuilding... and that is what I'm hoping for you both!<P>Hope this helps... <P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P><BR>

Yes, I have been obsessive on this site, but except for my H (who really would rather have root canal surgury than talk about his affair) I had no one else. It saved my sanity. <P>Sometimes I knew what triggered my downs. It could have been a sharp word from H or even a funny look, which normally I wouldn't have noticed, but in my super sensitive mood, gave me "proof" he either didn't love me, wasn't committed to the marriage, or was still in contact with OW. None of that was true, but that's how it would feel. Since I was being such a good little soldier, however, I didn't share all the pain. Sometimes he would ask and I would just say it was a bad day and he would hug me.<P>By the way, I didn't post until June. January - May I was too devastated. I lurked and learned, but did not share or even ask for help.<P>Any uncovered receipt or any reminder could trigger a "down". Driving through the city they met and would meet (30 miles away) would "crush me" until the last few months. Since we have to go through it to get anywhere, that was a problem.<P>Sometimes I don't know why the roller coaster dipped. I would just start feeling that emcompassing pain, and it did not let up easily.<P>Looking back, the first two months I was probibly so panicked H would leave, I was on autopilot. The next few where horrible, I think I was in part grief/part denial. Then I could see that the waves of pain were further apart and not as crushing overall. So there was progress in the big picture.<P>I just had a down this weekend and although we hadn't talked about it in months, I heard myself telling H it would have been easier to die than to live through this past year. Although I was not suicidal even for a second, this is true.<P>By the way, the reason I'm here now is to work through residual issues, but mostly to reach out and give back since this site was my lifeline.<P>That help?<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Hi Mr and MRS RWC -<P>Both FHL and New Beginning have given great answers to you...<P>The only thing that I can think of to add is.....<P>Yes, the betrayed - absolutely go through ups and downs with their emotions. BUT so do the Betrayers.<P>There is pain on both sides that needs to be acknowledged, talked about and then that pain must take the form of "energy" being put into rebuilding...you have to move forward and can only do that when you take a look at what is the present and not keep seeing the past in your mind's eye!!!<P>Yes, your wife needs to know what this has done to you....You also need to know what you have done to her!!<P>You say that you had a one nighter 11 years ago......maybe instinct told her that back then? Maybe not? But if you were able to have it - that says that there was trouble within the marriage way back then!!<P>Do you think that your wife being neglected by you for however long is not a form of pain that is just as devastating to her as her affair is to you? Her pain might have lasted ALL these years!!! Imagine feeling such pain that you feel....for that long a time!!! You'd never be able to do it, would you? <P>This is where the numbness comes from with her, I bet!! She may have been in this dark place of pain for so long that she just wants things to move into a GOOD and EQUAL marriage....enough of the problems and roadblocks!!!<P>I don't think that she just doesn't want to validate your pain...I feel that maybe she feels that she has said she made a bad choice and loves you (and has loved you through your neglect of her!!) enough to be there and get things back on track!! It's great that you both are here and DrHarley provides the tools needed to make sure that you do it right if you BOTH start and do your part to move this along.<P>You will have your moments of pain and so will she....they will subside more and more with time and improvement!!<P>I understand about the pride and dignity, but they are not what makes a man who he is....they are not the Inner you - that is your heart!!! If you want to let your pride and dignity rule your heart and hold things up...then this kind of thinking could actually be turned towards yourself because 11 years ago you did the same to hers!!!! And you , in fact, used your pride to allow yourself this one nighter for your ego and what did that do to your dignity? you crushed your own!!! It's a double edged sword!!!<P>See what I am saying? You're keeping up a roadblock....these feelings can be overcome be changing your perspective!!!<P>Look at things this way....<P>You both have made mistakes...and must learn from them.<P>You both love each other and want to rebuild.<P>You are both pushing at one another instead of pulling TOGETHER as a team and getting to work on what you need to change within the marriage.<P>You can not beat each other into acknowledgement of pain and/or blame!!! <P>You are both hurt!!!! So, what are you both gonna do about it!!!! You can't stay in it and say "My pain is greater than your pain".....<P>She feels terrible about what she did...I'm sure of it!!! Just like you feel terrible for what you did 11 years ago and any neglect you may have done.<P>OK>>>>take it from there now!!!!<P>Hope this helps some....please don't let yourself stay focused on the pain of it all...<P>It's like a headache....LOVE is the aspirin and rebuilding is when the aspirin kicks in!!!! There's relief for the pain....accept the aspirin and start kicking it in!!!!<P>HUGS and Strength to you both,<P>Sheba<P>PS - BTW, I'm the betrayed..... <p>[This message has been edited by Sheba (edited October 28, 1999).]

You don't get over it in MHO. You learn to live with the hurt, mine is going on 3 years now. Somedays it feels like it was just yesterday. My wife also says 'get over it, it happened, i am sorry'. She will never know the pain her deception, lying, and betrayal caused me because I love her and just can't hurt her back that way. But I have resigned myself to living with this wound that will never heal because the scab keeps getting torn off. Not a day, not one single day goes by that I don't have a trigger go off that sends me back to the hurt. Good luck.

Mrs RWC,<P>Bless you for having the courage to come to this site. I'm sure your hubby warned you that some of us are quite bitter.<P>I have to agree with NeverAgain. I can understand that my W fell out of love with me - we had our problems. But I can't get over the willingness to tell bold-faced lies, be devious, etc. This was so unlike her (strong Christian values, etc.) When these recurring thoughts hit me it makes me want to throw up.<P>Here's the part you may not like... "I did it, it's over, I'm sorry, get over it" is a major league copout. It is designed to relieve your guilt - of course you don't want to be reminded of it, and his ongoing pain reminds you of it.<P>One of the consequences of the bad decisions you made is that you now need to show extraordinary understanding of the damage you inflicted. Sort of along the lines of "a moment on the lips, forever on the hips" if you see what I mean. <P>God bless both of you. Good luck putting it back together.

In my case, and some I have read here or learned about later, it takes a while until we finally feel we are really over the whole thing. On both sides, but , I found that more on the betrayed side. WE are the ones who still keep thinking about it after our spouse hardly rememebers it.<P>A lot of the betrayers honestly want the whole thing to be over with, and let's go from here now, like it didn't even happened ( my H did ) And because they're not attaching any special meaning to the affair, they have trouble understanding why we do. They don't mean to hurt us even more by acting like that, and don't realise that we need a different form of closure.ALl they want is not to think about it anymore ( many feelings like guilt, remorse, even feeling ashamed hel for them to want it just to go away ). <BR>I feel that is a normal reaction, although it doesn't help us to get the closure we need. After all people don't like to know they've been wrong and even unconsciously try to avoid dealing with it.It's part of our defense mechanism.<P>It took me about 7 months, and be in recoveryfor 3 untill my H really got the idea of how much his actions hurt me and started feeling a more genuine remorse. Up to them he was just acknowleding he had chosen the wrong path and willing to make an effort to make it better. But only then he really caught himself thinking "Gee, I truly scr** it up and hurt my wife and children in the process. How could I do it?<P>Of course we both know now, that our marriage was in need of a big shake, but before he was focusing on what he was feeling I had done wrong, after that his thoughts were more balanced : we both messed it up, not only me . <P>We don't talk much about the affair anymore, but then again it happened almost 2 years ago.But when we do he's finally able to open up and give me whatever answers or actions I need to feels better.<P>Since I finally ended it in my head as well, I don't think about it much anymore. And one thing I feel very important is to make sure that we don't keep focusing on that or using it whenever something is not at its best. If we have a problem ( and sometimes it happens ) I don't use the affair as a weapon against him, or keep reminding of what he did. Even though I'm very carefull with this, sometimes I make a comment about something else, and he feels I'm talking about the affair. His guilty conscience kicked in later but its still working a bit overtime now:0So now I am the one pointing out to him that it's over and not everything I say has to do with it.<P>I have to go now, Ijust realised I'm late, but I'll e back later <P>You gys got a lot of great answers here, that I'm sure will help.<BR>Take care<P>Kat<P>------------------<BR>Each and everyone of us is deserving of a kind word, a gentle thought, and the gift of understanding.

RWC:<BR>haveing been on both sides of the fence, betrayed and betrayer, I can tell you that both sides have there valid points but both sides are a bit overblown. The betrayer who comes back definitely wants everyone concerned to "just forget about it". After all that's why the betrayer is back, because he/she is willing to forget about it. The betrayed, on the other hand doesn't want to forget about it so quickly. Being the betrayed gives you a hammer. A weapon you can wield whenever you want to control the situation. The problem is that it can be your downfall. The betrayers went out looking for what they could not find at home. The betrayed, in many cases, refuse to accept that they had anything to do with it. They want to be the injured party. I have to admit that being the betrayed always got me more sympathy than being the betrayer. But the truth is, contrary to some other opinions expressed here, you both have to get over it and move on. "Get a life" you can't spend several years of your life tryng to figure out what terrible thing you did that caused your spouse to stray and the betrayer can't spend that time trying to get over the terrible guilt of all the pain and sadness he/she caused. Spend that time trying to see what you can do to make your marriage stronger. Make positive changes in your life. Listen to each other and do the best you can to eliminate the love busters that got you in trouble in the first place. <P>Ego, pride, and self pity, will be your downfall. Wake up and forget about it. Yes! I said "forget about it" and move on. Yes it is easy for me to say. I've been on both ends and I can tell you that if you don't forget about it, you will destroy yourself and your family.<P>Flip

Well Mr. RWC is back to respond, my wife is at work right now and hasn't seen the replies so far. But she is very understand and she is willing to look at her own short comings. It seems like the advise is 50/50 right down the middle as far as support for her and me, I think that's great, I didn't want alot of finger pointing, I do want to move on, but maybe her lack of understand is standing in the way. And maybe I lack understand in being able to let go. <P>I would like to address a couple replies and I hope she does the same this afternoon.<P>FHL: When you said you almost went insane, I sure know what you mean, I've been the most sane person I know until this happened, but I came close to checking myself into a rubber room. What has saved me is her willingness to love again and rebuild. If she had left me like so many other stories we hear about, It truly would have killed me! 24/7 I know well, I wish my emotions could go on vacation, just one blessed hour of peace would be priceless!<BR>You said something that hit home and I quote, "It could have been a sharp word from H or even a funny look, which normally I wouldn't have noticed, but in my super sensitive mood, gave me "proof" he either didn't love me, or wasn't committed to the marriage, or was still in contact with OW. None of that was true, but that's how it would feel.Since I was being such a good little soldier, however, I didn't share all the pain. Sometimes he would ask and I would just say it was a bad day and he would hug me." You just described me to a "T" It's making my wife walk on pins and needles and I really don't want that.<P>new_beginning: The very last thing I want happen is to run her off, I am being very humble and honest with her, I am not playing mind games and if she could live with the old me, and I could live with the old her, I believe we will get through this. As for coming here...for awhile even I thought like your husband, what was happening is I was reading all the post, and the freshly hurt ones were bring me down, I had to be selective and now it's helping. My wife is here because I think she see's the help.<P>Sheba: You said we both are going thru pain, and that's the point I'm trying to make. The only pain I see in her(and she may correct me when she reads this) is that it hurt me. I felt the pain for my past action and she isn't (in my eyes) feeling that pain for the action. I know it's not worth holding on to, but I see it as the tip of a much deeper rooted problem that hasn't surfaced yet, and before I can let it go, I must know her heart completely. As for the numbness, I think she will have to answer that. She's told me she's not holding on to past resentment, pain and anger, but even I wonder sometimes if it's still not bothering her. Understand though it wasn't just me not caring, it was a domino effect that neither of us could stop. Her coldness fed my neglect and my neglect fed her coldness, and you know the rest of the story. And believe me what I did to her has not been forgotten by me, Even day one I could not slam her for her actions, truly I was no better. As much as I would have liked to keep that my little secret and I did for almost 11 years, rebuilding meant so much I had no choice. I really have taken a christian attitude towards the situation, and she has too. As for pride and dignity, pride is needed for all, but it's easy to build up too much. I have been very humble and will continue but pride and self esteem go hand in hand. Dignity however is vital in everyone, until you're stripped of dignity you don't understand it's importance but dignity is part of your soul. <P>NeverAgain: I feel for you, 3 years! it's only been 3 months for me. For my wife that's a long time without moving on, for me only 90 days ago she was in the arms of another man. However her love for me is my source of healing and I think in another 3 months I will be well on my way. In 3 years I would see no reason to even talk about it. <P>2sad4words: Thats how I feel, yes we had problems but I thought we were playing with bows and arrows, I didn't know she would resort to nuclear warfare or I would have backed down. She had more values than I did back then. But to flip the coin over, A person can only go so long feeling unloved, I can not condemn her, we both made mistakes!<P>Kat1: Thats my feelings, I don't know why, but it's important for me to know that she truly realizes the depth of my hurt. Even I didn't know it would hurt this bad. So many evenings together with a need for her comfort and she can't give it because she doesn't realize my very existance was damaged.<P>flipper: I do hear what you're saying, but some people can get over it easier than others. Believe me I do understand why she went looking elsewhere, I really do, that's why I can't slam her, I have no need in a hammer, I don't think I use the situation like that, but I think it would be interesting to see my wife's reply to that...Maybe I am...I'll wait for her to set us straight.<P><BR>THANKS ALL FOR THE HELP, I SUSPECT MY WIFE WILL HAVE INPUT WHEN SHE GETS HOME THIS AFTERNOON.<P>

I thought I'd pop in too. My h. had an office affair for fourteen months. The thing that is a bit different for me is that the day he confessed, he also admitted writing a letter to her husband out of spite. She had moved on to someone else in the office while telling my h. that she needed to concentrate on her marriage. <P>The night he told me, I got up in the middle of the night and found the letter in his car. I drove to an all night grocery and made copies. This letter gave dates and places of their sexual activities. In later weeks, I pried more info out of him about more lies.<P>The hurt was tremendous because he was my hero, the virtuous Christian man I'd waited years to find, and he fell off that pedestal with a loud thud. <P>Know what? He never asked to be there in the first place. <P>Know what else? I never let him express a word of spiritual doubt or confusion. I glared at him if he swore in front of the kids when whacking his head or being cut off in traffic.<P>When we had a calm, productive discussion about the causes of our marital decline, he said "I just got tired of being so damned right and responsible. She was clearly bad and she let me be bad with her."<P>As far as understanding how much they hurt us. I don't think the betrayers usually feel remorse and guilt all at once, or they'd go nuts. It seems to me that my h. expresses little bits at a time because that is all his spirit can handle...Just like the betrayed go through the phases of grief and anger and finally, move to processing it all and moving on.<P>There is a great book called "After the Affair" . Also, "Surviving an Affair" (MB) and "When a Mate Wants Out" are full of really helpful stuff for you both.<P>It's been six months since my h slept with her the last time. He says the only feelings left for her are anger, and last night he said "don't you think it is silly for us to give that ugly, flat-chested *itch any more of our energy?" He is right. At some point in the future, I trust that all of us will be able to look back as wiser people, with happier lives. Good luck to you two.<P>LIZ<P>------------------<BR>When you go through deep waters and great trouble, I will be with you. Isaiah 43:2<P><BR>

From what I can tell, you two are in a game of "who hurt whom the most". You want to feel like you felt more guilty, etc. etc. therefore your failure to confess to something you did 11 years is ok. She has just as much right to say "how could you have lied to me all those years." She confessed right away, so her lack of (what you consider) appropriate guilt may be ok with her. She might even be feeling like it was ok to have an affair since you lied to her all these years. If I were her, I'd remind you to point those fingers right back at yourself as long as you had you decided to judge me as someone "worse than" you. <BR>HOWEVER, I do know from experience that neither of you will save your marriage with this kind of behavior. You will never win with this game. The "who is more moral" or "who loves who" more game. You both have hurt each other. Stop the finger pointing and one-up-manship and fix your problems if you want to keep your marriage. <P>I read somewhere that women are more hurt than men when their husbands are emotionally involved with someone else, while men are more hurt when their wives are physically involved with someone else. Most of the posts I read tend to confirm that. The women say "how could he love someone else?". The men say "how could she have sex with someone else?" Maybe that is why she may not appear to be as affected.<P>Also, this question often comes up "how come they didn't end the marriage first before getting involved?" Getting a divorce whether someone else is in the picture or not means you are breaking your vows. There are at least 5 vows made when you get married, and fidelity is only one of them. Divorce means you break the other 4 as well. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited October 28, 1999).]

TheStudent:<P>Actually in my eyes there is no finger pointing, or game playing. First I do understand I am no better, that's why I confessed and I was the first to admit that I was no better. And I'm pretty sure my wife will tell you that, I'm as sincere as sincere can be in rebuilding. But the foundation of my soul and spirit was crushed. Life is hell and I want out of this prison so I can enjoy my new relationship with her. And the whole reason for suggesting we post a question together was not just for her to understand me, I am and have been very willing to look at myself. I have swallowed my pride, and I am very humble, but also my spirit has been broken....Whatever it takes to fix things, we both feel that way!

I posted this recently on another thread, but I thought it might interest both of you.<P>It is tempting to use infidelity as a manipulative weapon, but if your goal is recovery and healing, it is not effective in achieving your goal.<BR>You feel what you feel. However, if you are working toward recovery, you need to remember you are committed to working toward the feelings you want to have.<P>Choosing your marriage takes courage for you and for your spouse. <P>You may have had problems in your relationship before the infidelity, so the infidelity itself is not your only problem. It is, however a huge barrier to intimacy to both you and your spouse. <P>When the betrayed decides to stay in the marriage, I believe we need to also commit to moving toward a forgiving spirit and moving toward actual rebuilding and recovery. That doesn't mean they instantly feel forgiving, or have the answers for recovery, it means they need to be willing to move toward that and conversely to move away from anything (bitterness, disrespect, lovebusting) that would impede recovery. Of course mistakes and a bit of back sliding on this roller coaster is to be expected, but in general we need to want to move forward (even at a snails pace) and needs to do the work necessary to actually move forward.<P>When the betrayer chooses to stay in the marriage, I believe they need to commit to a spirit of reconcilliation and coversely move away from anything that inhibits it. The betrayer also feels what they feel, but the betrayer also needs to want to feel differently and do the hard work that will move them toward actually feeling differently.<P>Those feelings you want are not just some elusive bubble that will just drift your way and pop on you. Those feelings are something you need to create...not overnight, but you need to keep wanting and keep working toward your goal. <P>It's OK to feel discouraged, boy don't we all some days.<P>But dwell upon what you can think and what you can do that will help you achieve your goal, and eliminate the things you think or do that can hurt your chances for recovery.<P>Think of some selfless kind gesture you can do for your spouse and when you get a warm response, note if that makes you feel warm in return. If you are thinking negatively....think of those thoughts as a cassette and push the stop button. Say stop out loud if it helps. Then put a different tape on, one that will build your marriage. Think one kind thought about your spouse, or perhaps a happy memory. Be open and honest, but refuse to let things esculate into a lovebusting episode. If your spouse is venting, don't be defensive, just let him/her feel. Be kind and patient, bearing with one another in love.<P>It's OK to stumble, and sometimes we fall, it is just not OK to lay there too long. Accept where you are, but don't accept the idea that it is OK to stay there.<P>So yes, it is tempting to manipulate(the betrayed with guilt, the betrayer by blaming mate), and it may bring short term leverage, but in the long run, if we want healthy marriages, we need to use all of communications to positively affect the outcome.<P>Hope you adds something to this discussion.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

RWC,<BR>I acknowledge that you say you aren't pointing any fingers. I respect that you did confess to your wife to show her that you don't believe you are any better than her. Ok, so the confusion is why you feel so destroyed and you don't see that reaction from your wife in regards to your affair. Also, you don't see the level of guilt you say you experienced from your infidelity. As much as I sympathize with your confusion, you still are comparing yourself with your wife, as much as you might hate to admit it. You are comparing your reactions to hers. Her behavior is her responsibility, but your reaction to her behavior is all your own. Personally, I'm more of a problem solver. After I confessed, my H moved out within two weeks, took his ring off, called yelling and screaming at me every day how hurt he was. About a month later, he told me he took another woman on a vacation for a week and accepted gifts from her during our separation. I was very mad that he had done this, while all the while treating me like crap. To me it was irrelevant whether he had sex with her or not. It was the dishonesty and hypocrisy that hurt me the most. Even though I was *fuming* inside, all I could say was "Is this the kind of relationship you want?" Very calmly. I also said, calmly, "Look, we both have hurt each other very much. We've proven we know how to do that. Let's now prove how much we can love each other. I won't throw this in your face if you promise to stop throwing my mistake in my face." Well. Didn't happen. Over time, he was really pissed that his adventure didn't *appear* to hurt me as much as mine did him. So he just kept upping the ante, I think, till he felt satisfied that he could hurt me. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited October 28, 1999).]

I'm RWC's wife. I appreciate all your responses,& the help you've given my H. I guess the problem I'm having now with this whole thing is that we will have a good couple of days,and I think maybe he is starting to come out of his depression, then BAM! he says things like " I'am bothered about what you said 2 months ago", or " I think you lied to me last week". When he hits me with these comments, I get discouraged and feel like we get knocked back again. I know what I did to him was devastating and I am sorry I hurt him. I guess I feel that he should try to move on because #1, he knows that I love him very much, and #2 he knows that I will never be unfaithful again. I've told him I would rather die than do that to him again. About 7 years ago I did suspect he had had an affair. A situation arose that made me wonder. He reassured me he had not had any affair. I didn't question him anymore until about 2 years ago, he still denied it. I didn't pursue it again. I guess my point is that I felt I didn't have a chance to be angry with him for what he did to me. I think to much time has passed, and that's why I'am not as devastated. When I had my affair, I really felt he had no love left, and wanted to spend the rest of his life without me. I decided(even though I am a Christian), that I was not getting any younger and I needed someone to love me. Besides that, I had watched my mother stay in a neglected marriage and unfortunately she died at 46 yrs,and didn't have a chance to start over. I'm not justifying what I did, and never will, but I wanted to share my thoughts with you, and the reasons I was unfaithful. Thanks again for all your concern and help for my H.

Hi RWC's wife,<BR>I know how you feel. I'll try to stop venting about my own situation long enough to help with yours . <P>RWC (H),<BR>Have you really forgiven yourself? I know that I'm having a hard time trusting people now, mainly because I'm having a hard time trusting myself. You both know now how easy it is to find someone else to fill some empty place. That is very, very scary. <P>RWC (W), <BR>You can do your best to be honest and trustworthy. You confessed pretty quickly. I'd say that was pretty courageous of you. You can't "fix" this for him. All you can do is be the best person you can be and hope he will see that in you. Try not to get too discouraged and beat yourself up too much.

(Hubby here)<P>As to TheStudent's question. Yes I know it's easy to fill an empty spot, but what I did 11 years ago, cured me instantly! The moment it happened I realized how very very wrong I was. I've never forgot that, since that time, I've had opportunity, but it was very easy to say "no" even when the wife and I weren't getting along. The reason I never told her is because, I already stopped it, I learned my lesson big time! And telling her about it, would make her pay the price for my lesson. I don't like not being honest with her, but I'm not sorry I waited so long either. If she had to go through what I've been through it would have killed her. I wish I had 11 years between the affair and discovery. Since it happened in another state, she has no triggers. She doesn't have to wonder if I still have contact, and no threat of her calling me. And she didn't have to watch me go through the withdrawl I had to watch her go through. That was terrible. I know there is no excuse for dishonesty but she's lucky to have been sheltered through that stage. Wish I had! I did tell our marriage counsler about this 6 months ago, and he agreed it would do no good to tell her. But I was ready to tell then if he had told me it would help.<P>I said I can be humble so I feel I need to say something to everyone. First, I thought bring her with me and starting this thread would help her understand me better, and it may have. But it's quite possible I've learned more than she did. Yes I still need to hear her say somethings to me, and yes I need to be comforted until I overcome my insecurity, But even with the terrible hurt, several have said that how I feel isn't making us any progress, and ya know...You are totally right!!! I find that deciding to keep a stiff upper lip, and pressing on with this brand new relationship with my wife inspite of the hurt is just as hard as when I discovered the affair, but it must be done. I can promise no one that I won't still have bad moments but after all the input I must agree it's time to let go. After all like I said, I'm no better. <BR>I don't know how many other couples have got online together and post questions, I don't remember seeing any lately, but for us it's helped. I know some don't have that luxury, they would be happy just to be living together, but for those who are rebuilding, I would like to recommend that you and your spouse get on the forum together, it's actually a way to communicate, with enough others around to keep us both in balance. Kinda wish I had thought of this before. But than again, I wish I'd done alot of things different when it come to my past. I have forgiven myself, but I still kick myself now and then for being sooooo STUPID!<P>You folks are wonderful, thanks so much for the help. And yes, we will make it, because we want to!<P>[This message has been edited by RWC (edited October 28, 1999).]<p>[This message has been edited by RWC (edited October 28, 1999).]

RWC H&W, <P>I am a betrayed husband. I was neglectful of my wife. I didn't cherish her as i had promised so many years ago. I was not a bad husband - average I guess. <P>My Christian wife did not tell me she was unhappy in our marriage. She didn't suggest counseling to resolve our problems. Instead, she chose to pursue another man to met her emotional needs. <P>I guess she emotionally divorced me some time ago. I regret not being able to recognize any warning sign. I don't think she meant to get so emotionally involved. Most betrayers don't set out to have an affair. the emotional distance between us grew to the point that it finally did become of a concern to me. When I asked her what was wrong one night, words spewed from her mouth that I never conceived possible from the woman I gave my heart to. Two months later I found out she was involved with another man. <P>What is the pain like? Pain so intense that when you get out of a chair you are surprised there isn't a pool of blood on the floor. My very existance as a man became in question. Sometimes I would put my hand to my chest to see if my heart was beating because I was certain I was dead. To make matters worse, I have had to hide this pain from our friends, coworkers, and my children. I don't want my children find out what their mother has done to me. <P>I have never been unfaithful to my wife physically or emotionally. I can't say that I haven't been tempted, especially now. <P>I haven't healed yet - far from it. To make matters worse for me, I implemented my Plan A upon discovery to win her back. After 8 months, of making her my focus, cherishing her as I always should have, I have fallen head over heals in love with my wife again and she does not share those feelings for me. This is making my emotional state even more difficult to deal with. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I decided(even though I am a Christian), that I was not getting any younger and I needed someone to love me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This absolutely breaks my heart. I see my wife saying these words. I could right volumes on this statement, but it would only depress me further. <P>I think you two have a real opprotunity to heal your marriage. I think you both know what you need to do. Any person who spends time going through this website and reading all the books has an excellent chance to make it. Keep trying. Don't take one another for granted ever again.<P>You both have given each other a second chance. Many are never given that opprotunity.<P>SHA