Not wanting to hijack a recent thread I have decided to present my serious concern here....

I guess it was Gamma that recently asked "can we please stop calling them names?".

The board does give large doses of tough love. And its very rare to be apologetic about labeling a behavior with terms that are inflammatory. I have all sorts of names that I can call myself or that I comfortably now can allow anyone to call me related to my marital history of verbal abuse....
But I have to wonder....

Does Steve or Dr. Harley utilize these names when they council adulterers? And if they don't why do we do it here?

The board has a lot of "walk outs" from adulterers. And that might happen anyway.

In my case my Verbal Abuse contributed to a failing marriage and if my WW were to come here she would read the inflammatory labels and "hear them" and stop being able to "hear" the very sound advice that is being offered.

Does Steve or Dr. Harley use POSO M/W?

Does Steve or Dr. Harley tell an Wayward that they are acting like a P or D or S or W?

Hey, I can only voice my thought or concern. Perhaps I am way off base.

But I wish someone would get Dr. H or Steve to give us some direction here.

I fear we lose too many adulterers because we piss them off with labels where a little more tact and diplomacy just might get them to read the good advice that is intended.

Hurtingturkey
me: BS 56
she:WW 49
hers: 22 & 18
mine: 30, 28
ours: 11

married: 13 years
D-day # 1 April 26, 2009
D-day # 2 January 31, 2010 (our anniversary)

WW continues to deny despite overwhelming evidence
WW in severe depression

Me recognized I was Verbally Abusive 10-22-09 and
actively reforming with a good track record since

Me no longer in love with my WW and that is a tragedy.
"its not the A, it's the fear that it will happen again
in the absence of an admission that is slowly killing me."
She no longer in love with me and that is a tragedy.
"its not your verbal abuse now, its the memory and fear that
it will happen again that makes me afraid."

COMMENT: VERBAL ABUSE on a repeated basis is the policeman with the rubber hose beating the suspect. INFIDELITY (EMOTIONAL OR PHYSICAL) is no different than pushing your spouse off a cliff and then turning a gun on yourself.
In either case... Nobody wins and everyone loses.

Posting police threads never end well

Doubtful, but it's usually only used here in the third person. We do not call a WW/WH a "POSWW". We only do that amongst each other.

I don't generally call someone a name in the first person ~ because for the most part, I agree with you. I think some may stop listening when that is done.

I DO 2x4 them however, because that is what is needed to wipe the fog away. They should not be coddled and they need to be told straight up how their actions look to the rest of the world. Coddling them only leads to more entitlement.

It would be easy to start another board and try out a different approach, right?

Yeah, but I'll jump in anyway.

I don't think I've ever called someone an inflammatory or degrading name to their 'face'. But I have certainly referred to a WS's AP as a POSOM or POSOW. It's a matter of putting a term to a person's action. And I hope it serves for a wayward to see that and say "OMG! I AM a POSOW!" Waywards have a tendency to place themselves in a cotton-stuffed bubble in order to be wayward. I think it's a needed dose of reality when they see that their actions are putting them in category in which they may not want to be.

I strongly doubt that the Harleys use any negative terms in their counseling. That is a more structured situation.

Dr. Harley has commented that Steve is respectful "almost to a fault." I certainly agree. I have never ever heard Steve H. say anything that could be construed as disrespectful. He exceeds everyone I have ever met, in that regard, including Dr. H himself.

The only other person I know who even comes close is another poster here.

Hurting, why are you scared that your wife could be so easily scared away from recovery?

She hasn't done what it takes for recovery, has she? She hasn't been open and honest, has she?

That's a great post by weaver and I agree.

I'm still not sure that first person name-calling is helpful. We teach our children that name-calling isn't acceptable, even if it's true, while 2x4's ARE helpful ~ to both children AND waywards.

They are very similar, afterall.

Took the words right out of my mouth.


The thing is, that the wayward mindset doesn't allow people to accept the consequence of their actions.

I worked in a grocery store for 10+ years, and you wouldn't believe the people that were thieves.

There was one customer we had that was in his late 70's. He was the owner of one of the local fruit companies, and had also invested wisely in stocks etc over the years.

Yet, every time he came into the store and shopped, he stole a tube of denture cream.

Of course he didn't think he was a "thief," even though he was thieving every time he entered the building. He had this sense of entitlement entrenched; I spend a lot of money here, and I could afford to buy this denture cream, but I deserve to be able to just take it.

He would regularly complain if there were panhandlers around the parking lot, and would make comments when loss prevention would bust a shop-lifter, because his own foggy sense of entitlement made him think he was different from "common thieves."

And then he got caught.

Waywards are no different. Looking at other people committing the same actions, they apply a label. To themselves?

"I deserve it, my marriage was unhappy... loveless. It won't hurt my spouse or children, they don't have to know."

Addicts, abusers, thieves, waywards, bullies... they all create this little world where their behavior is "special" and they don't fit the description of others.

Those labels fit a behavioral set, not a person. Remove the behavior, remove the label.

This is strictly my observation:

I have almost never seen someone come here honestly seeking help as a WS who was immediately called all sorts of names. When a WS posts for the first time and the basic tenor of their post is "I did something terrible. I know it was wrong. Please help me," then yes, responders will acknowledge the truth of their wrongness, but they also offer practical help. Every once in awhile someone who is really intensely hurting my jump on and say something sharp and maybe inflammatory sounding (mainly motivated by their hurt), but that is the exception.

However, when a WS comes here and says, "Let me give you a five paragraph essay about how annoying/bad/unkind/neglectful my BS is....oh, and by the way I was so upset I cheated," then yes, they will be swiftly called on that. because it is VERY easy to see what they are really thinking. When you own your bad choices, you don't need to give strangers 5 paragraphs of martial background to excuse them.

Now, if after several posts, the WS is STILL saying "but I can't quit my job," "but I can't confess," "but I don't want to give my passwords," "Will my BS be over it by next week?" Then the responses get a little tougher. Because obviously the gentle approach isn't working.

As a teacher, I have a progression of classroom management strategies. For some ids, just making them aware of their behavior is enough. Some have to be moved to a different seat. Some need a time out, or for me to call their parents, or for me to send them to the office. It basically depends on whether the student will acknoweldge and change direction, or stiffen their backs and try to give me a run for my money

I think WS's sometimes forget that even with understanding, even with forgiveness, even if they are really really sorry.....choices still have consequences. That's just how life is. And when you are posting to a board where one of the big mission is to fight and recover from adultery.....I'm sorry, but if you don't KNOW going into it that people aren't going to pat you on the back and give you a tissue for having an A....you may not be firing with all pistons

All I can say is, with my children, I have always tried to label the behavior and not the person. So, instead of saying, "You're a bad person because you did that" I will say, "That was not a nice thing to do and that kind of behavior is not acceptable."

I have seen many active waywards come here. Many of them have endured direct first-person name calling. Ho-bag and Skank seem to be the most common. Many of them don't return after a post or two. Is it because they are being called derogatory names? I don't know. It's certainly possible. Or it could just be that they would have left anyway once they started hearing things they didn't want to hear - like the fact that they'll have to tell their spouse about the A and never see their AP again.

I do know that I don't recall being called such names myself when I first came here. I'm glad for that, because I don't know that I would have come back either if people had started flinging derogatory names at me. I certainly received my fair share of 2x4's, which I deserved. But name calling seems sort of childish and immature, and I do cringe a little whenever I see it happen here. It kind of reminds me of being back in junior high school.

I think one key is.....and I know this is hard because, well, we are human and all humans are afflicted with pride.....

Every once in awhile a person has a bad day. or maybe a poster triggers something in them. Or maybe they are going through something we cannot even see. I bet everyone who reads what I right on a regular basis can tell when my moods are starting to shift or something is off with my meds

So, if someone does maybe mouth off a bit too much, it's really simple to deal with. Just say "I'm sorry." Those two words are becoming such a rarity in the world. "I'm sorry. What you are doing to your spouse is just so hurtful, and I think it needs to stop now. I cannot condone what you are choosing because it is wrong. But I'm sorry I used the word poopyheaded idiot fart."

I'm big on the whole I'm sorry thing.....maybe because I find myself having to say it a lot. (I wonder if any moderators will censor my mean name I just used)

Folks, I owe my ability to breathe air to posters here.
I am not "Posting Police" and take considerable offense to the label. I don't have and answer. BUT... do we ever look at ourselves?

Does the Plan A board member gain from reading the terms we sometimes use or do we unintentionally "load them up with more ammunition that cooks off under the stress?"

Maybe I should tell my WW she is a WHO**. I am sure that would help things don't you? (Of course you don't).

Think I don't have Anger too?

Yes its a public board. Yes its nonprofessionals lacking some of the tact and diplomacy of Dr. H and Steve. But are we applying Marriage Builders principles when we try to reach through the fog?

Frankly I would love to SLAM adulterers to the ground and I would love to shame Verbal Abusers too.
I was a POS. A Pri**. A Bast***. An Abusive Husband (verbally). Call me whatever you want. I have to accept it. But realizing I was verbally abusive was never accomplished by utilizing the term "Abuse". It was opening my eyes and looking at myself and I closed them every time I compared myself to an "abusive husband" cause I thought you had to "hit your spouse" to abuse them. Boy was I wrong.

So maybe I am wrong.

I have but a handful of posts but I read constantly.

Markos - you asked a separate question and it deserves an answer. I have no way of knowing why my wife is afraid to be honest. I am not her. I SUSPECT that she is afraid I will turn ugly forever - back to the verbal abuser I once was. But I have no idea really. And Steve's advice is to let it be and deal with it if I want a marriage because no person can force another to do anything (of course as a reforming verbal abuser I didn't know that until about 15 months ago).

So all I do know, is we lose a lot of adulterers that come here and I have TREMENDOUS RESPECT for the long term Posters here and just maybe we could save one Adulter who otherwise would not listen....

Do I really advocate one side or the other of my question? No. I can argue both sides. But it seems to me most organizations sit back and do some quality control and self evaluation once in a while. If we are hear to support victims and teach perpetrators then once in a while we have to do autopsies on the dead and try and figure out why they died.

There are better minds than me here. I trust them to think about it.

Pepperband - you are probably right that such a thread doesn't end well. But then if the waywards here and the victims here think they are infallible....

I know I am not.


Hurtingturkey
me: BS 56
she:WW 49
hers: 22 & 18
mine: 30, 28
ours: 11

married: 13 years
D-day # 1 April 26, 2009
D-day # 2 January 31, 2010 (our anniversary)

WW continues to deny despite overwhelming evidence
WW in severe depression

Me recognized I was Verbally Abusive 10-22-09 and
actively reforming with a good track record since

Me no longer in love with my WW and that is a tragedy.
"its not the A, it's the fear that it will happen again
in the absence of an admission that is slowly killing me."
She no longer in love with me and that is a tragedy.
"its not your verbal abuse now, its the memory and fear that
it will happen again that makes me afraid."

COMMENT: VERBAL ABUSE on a repeated basis is the policeman with the rubber hose beating the suspect. INFIDELITY (EMOTIONAL OR PHYSICAL) is no different than pushing your spouse off a cliff and then turning a gun on yourself.
In either case... Nobody wins and everyone loses.

The sad reality? You don't have to.

I've never uttered a single derogatory statement toward my FWW. It was she who stated "I feel like a wh$%e, I was acting like a wh(*&."

She has told me that sometimes she wishes I would call her names.

I told her that I don't look at her that way, nor do I want anyone else to.

Then again, feelings follow actions... don't they?

I hope not. It made me laugh.

Everyone has moods. Everyone has a bad day. Everyone says things they later wished they hadn't said. It happens to me all the time. And I am also a big believer in the good old-fashioned apology.

I guess I just don't like name calling in general. To me, it kind of makes the name-caller look worse than the one being called the name.

And this is coming from a skinny little white (very white) girl who grew into her nose rather late in life (if I ever did at all) and went through junior high school constantly being called names like "Casper the Friendly Ghost" and "Pinocchio." It's a sensitive subject for me.

I wish I'd grow into my nose......Actually I wish I was still a SKINNY white girl.

I think different people react to different words as well. If someone called me stupid or uneducated I would just laugh or do an eye roll. But when people talk about "crazy" or say things about how disordered people are just hopeless and you might as well give up trying to recover with one of them.....that does sting, just because of my own personal experience of having bipolar (not that anyone has ever said that to me here). Sometimes we just don't know what connotations others give words.

I recently used the word "bitter." Because it is something I have struggled with in various aspects of life. But bitter can be a very charged word - for many people it just creates a vision of a shriveled, mean, angry old person. So when I used that word, it really stung a few people deeply. What I SHOULD have done at that point was say, "I'm sorry. I realize my words hurt you. I should have chosen them more carefully." Instead I scrambled around trying to defend myself and explain and all that. It hurt someone who didn't need to be hurt. I needed to address that.

The only time labels really bother me is when they are used as long term bean poles (which happens IRL a lot). I hope writer1 doesn't mind this, but I know a few months ago she was going through something terrible, and needed help, and someone jumped in and made a snide remark about how she should just be thankful her DH was raising somebody else's kid. That wasn't even the issue and.....really? Seriously?

I was writing somewhere else (I read around and post about 5 different places) recently asking for advice on some SF issues with my DH, and someone said "Maybe your DH just doesn't want to stick himself where the OM has been." Nice.

Like I said before, I will be a tad bit protective of a WW who comes here completely repentant and wanting to do whatever it takes. But when their first question is "How can we get over this with me never having to tell, change anything, and btw I want my H to be nicer".....well, it's better for me not to say anything right away, cause it won't be nice.

I don't mind. This kind of thing does happen sometimes. I've learned to just ignore those comments for the most part.

I know a lot of people come here in pain, and I try to keep in mind that I don't know what is going on in everyones lives or what everyone is feeling. It's so hard to watch every single thing you say and try not to say anything that could offend anyone. Maybe it's not even possible. It certainly isn't my intention to ever offend anyone.

I think there are a lot of thoughtful posters here. When I see an unrepentent wayward here or a confused (aren't they all but that obviously is not an excuse) one...
I don't really see or feel much of anything for the wayward. But I do see the wife or husband of that wayward. And with that in mind when we say anything inflammatory to the wayward to we hurt or help the process. I really don't know. Maybe I suspect that it works for some and not for others? I just don't know. I just know that all waywards are unrepentant while they are wayward. But their spouse.... that is the more important one that I think we all want to support.

Probably enought said for me.

This is a resource here. A tremendous one. It literally saved my life. I can never, ever say enough good about it.

Hurtingturkey
me: BS 56
she:WW 49
hers: 22 & 18
mine: 30, 28
ours: 11

married: 13 years
D-day # 1 April 26, 2009
D-day # 2 January 31, 2010 (our anniversary)

WW continues to deny despite overwhelming evidence
WW in severe depression

Me recognized I was Verbally Abusive 10-22-09 and
actively reforming with a good track record since

Me no longer in love with my WW and that is a tragedy.
"its not the A, it's the fear that it will happen again
in the absence of an admission that is slowly killing me."
She no longer in love with me and that is a tragedy.
"its not your verbal abuse now, its the memory and fear that
it will happen again that makes me afraid."

COMMENT: VERBAL ABUSE on a repeated basis is the policeman with the rubber hose beating the suspect. INFIDELITY (EMOTIONAL OR PHYSICAL) is no different than pushing your spouse off a cliff and then turning a gun on yourself.
In either case... Nobody wins and everyone loses.

One of my nephews is raising an OC. My FWW also barely had her bio father in her life.

With men who raise a child who isn't biologically theirs, it's only a "problem" to people who are not them.

My FWW is my FIL's daughter. Period. My great-niece is my nephew's daughter. Period.

To suggest otherwise is to invite a beatdown.

To suggest that a W should be thankful her BH "is even doing it" is ludicrous. To be thankful to have the kind of man that will is another story.


Sorry for the t/j, but I think beating a W over the head w/ an OC is just dumb.